quote: I'd be careful with statements like this. You can't absolutely guarantee that mommy will NEVER have a reason to hit him as there may come a time where he truly needs a spanking to get his attention (i.e. naked butts out of the tub as posted earlier). Maybe instead you'd say something like "Mommy would never hurt you on purpose without a really really good reason, and even then she wouldn't want to do it."
I guess I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around this. I don't view spanking as EVER being neccesary. I think there is ALWAYS an alternative to it. I was never spanked as a child, not once, and my kids have never been spanked. I'm not trying to tick anyone off, I am trying to figure this out.
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posted
Do I believe that spankings are absolutely necessary for good discipline? No.
Do I believe that spankings are inherently evil and teach your children to hit other kids, and will give them developmental problems? No.
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posted
Could be that you've just never had a situation come up where there wasn't another option. The last time I spanked my daughter was for leaning over a half-wall located in the loft of our old house. There was an approximate 12 foot drop to the floor below. We'd talked, done timeouts, taken away toys, etc. Finally I decided that keeping her brains in her head was worth spanking her. Never had a problem after that.
posted
My kids have gone through a phase of being spanked to learn what happens if I count to five. After that counting to five works 99% of the time. I grew up without spanking, but with excoriating verbal assaults. I can't say I was happier with that. With 10 kids, someone always seemed to be getting one. If you spank a child, that child is punished. If you cuss out a child, all the children are somewhat punished.
Yeah, I know there are other roads. But the slogan "use you words and not your hands" gives me chills- the bad kind.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Kids and circumstances are different. My oldest child virtually never needed a spanking, I'm not sure she ever got one.
The middle child, more so. The youngest girl - like the oldest practically never. The boy - much more often.
I reserve spankings for the severest of circumstances, and they are to me - a jolt used to get a child's attention. It's for life and death (like running toward a busy street) or it's for willful defiance that cannot be tolerated.
Spanking is never the end-all for us either - it's the attention getter, the "Hey - this is serious business" which is then followed by the corrective discipline. Spankings should never hurt the child, but rather shock the child into paying attention. "Wow, mommy must really mean this - it's probably important." I don't condone spanking that leaves marks.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
See, that's why I spank for attention in dangerous situations. It's not a discipline thing, really. Or maybe it is a bit. But breaking something doesn't do permanent damage to anyone, and can be dealt with in a timely manner, as part of a we-don't-break-things lesson. But there's no chance to teach your child about traffic safety lovingly, and over time, after they run out in a road. I encourage my kids to stay away from the road, but if they insist on running towards it, a spanking keeps them from dying. Then you still have a child left to teach about the dangers of running into the road.
I almost never have to use it, because when very seldom used it's powerful enough that just a reminder of impending spankings will keep my kids from beating on each other.
posted
If done, it shouldn't ever be done in anger, or while you're angry. Only in love, and for the reasons of compassion and the safety of the child.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
In Utah if it leaves a mark it's a beating and not a spanking. So is hitting with anything other than the hand, on any body part except the rear/upper thigh. There was an issue where children with Mongolian spots kept getting taken away from their parents because it looked like a bruise from spanking.
Some medicines like children's Advil let kids bruise easier too, though one would hope a kid needing advil wouldn't be held to a spanking.
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posted
In our family, the one doing the spanking is never the one who decided it needed doing. That makes sure the it is done with out the passion of anger.
posted
msquared, I sure wish that has been the case in my childhood... my parents went well beyond mere spanking.
I avoid it when possible as a result of that, but as others said, there are absolutely times when non-contact methods don't sink into a child's head and it takes something more immediate to make the child realize that Mom is really truly serious about whatever they're being spanked for. Usually after the third.. or fourth... or fifth.... episode of a repeated inappropriate behavior, sometimes it's a more emergent situation like lack of attention to traffic, etc.
posted
In our family, my parents say they used to spank me and one of my sisters, for a little while, then decided it wasn't the best way. I don't remember ever being spanked. I do remember one of my sisters being spanked. Mostly, our parents saved it for SERIOUS things. I remember...4 spankings of siblings total. It was REALLY rare
Sadly, our parents did far worse than merely spanking us. They had the horrible and sadistic punishment of making us sit in a room together after an argument and come to a mutally acceptable solution. It was EVIL, cause if the other one was really mad at you, they could punish you by refusing to talk to you, which would have the result of forcing you to stay there until they got sick of it.
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quote:My oldest child virtually never needed a spanking, I'm not sure she ever got one.
The middle child, more so. The youngest girl - like the oldest practically never. The boy - much more often.
This bothered me, and I just figured out why. It's because the responsibility is placed on the kids - two "never needed" spanking, while the other two did. That's putting the decision and blame for the spanking onto the kids - in one case a 4 year old.
posted
kat, it shouldn't bother you because different kids need different levels of discipline for different things.
Natalie could be told "don't go near the street" and she wouldn't do it. Daniel, will do it to test me because he has a defiant personality.
What would bother me is believing that each child can and should be treated the same. Parents should use the disciplinary method that works best for that child in that situation. I use what I think is necessary, and it's not a question of one child is better than the other - kids have distinct personalities.
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posted
It does. You have mentioned before that your oldest is both more compliant, more eager to please, and more academically gifted than the middle one. You are blaming the kids for the method of punishment and correction you chose. They choose their behavior (to varying degrees, being kids), but you choose the method of punishment.
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posted
So, Kat, you are saying that parents should NEVER tailor their discipline and instruction of their kids to what the kids need because that is de facto abdicating responsibility for their discipline.
I think that's a terribly tenuous line of reasoning.
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posted
So it is better to spank everyone everytime someone does something?
Spanking isn't the ideal, by any means. We decided to go with spanking because that was how my husband was raised and his parents seem a little saner than mine. But I use timeouts a lot as well. My husband was dubious at first, but for most things they work.
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posted
When properly administered a spanking doesn't hurt. I don't think it's "blaming the child for making you hurt them" when a parent recognizes that in a particular case the only way the child will understand the severity of what they've done is through a spanking.
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posted
The method of discipline used is a choice. Kids need discipline, but they don't "need" spanking. They need food, but they don't "need" zwieback crackers. The need is general; the method of satisfying that need is specific and the caregiver's choice.
Of course spankings hurt - that's the point. Delivering that hurt is considered an acceptable trade off for the benefits of it, but declaring that one child needs to be hurt more than another is disturbing.
posted
I agree with Belle that children should be treated fairly, and that that does not mean eaqually, necesarily. I think every child should get what he or she needs.
I just don't think that is EVER a spanking.
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posted
If Belle changed it to 'I needed to spank one more than others' instead of 'One needed more spanking', would that be satisfactory?
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
The attitude of blaming the child for you having to hurt them isn't about spanking. It could be used with timeouts, taking away toys, all that other stuff. And I'm afraid it's probably fairly common. "Why do you make mommy have to punish you" is screwy no matter what the actual punishment is. It arises from a parent wanting their child's approval, even in the act of punishing them. "The fact that I'm punishing you doesn't change that I am a nice person." I'm not getting that from Belle.
When I punish, it's a sign "this behavior won't be tolerated". Then, after a few minutes, I hug them and let them know I still love them. The behavior is what is bad.
I've had a slow potty trainer, and several people have recommended cold showers as the solution. That, to me, seems cruel and unusual.
Kat, my punishing you doesn't make me not a nice person: Back off.
posted
Saying my statement is bait is just another way of blaming your method of handling things on the other person. Own your reactions, Belle.
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Actually, "I needed to spank her" IS better than "She needed to be spanked." The need is the caregiver's, then.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
And I knew someone who spanked their slow potty trainer, which I think is completely inappropriate.
You know something everybody - I am not going to come back into this thread.
I am content that the disciplinary methods my husband and I use are both solidly grounded biblically and are to our childrens' benefit. And results speak for themselves, I think. I have only to look to my kids who are well behaved in public, spirited and fun-loving at home, no afraid to speak their minds, and on top of all that, they're beautiful and talented and just plain wonderful.
Have a nice afternoon everyone. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I've seen Adrian interact with her children.
I've worked with parents on good parenting skills.
Adrian has good parenting skills. She would never choose to do harm to her child. You DO tailer discipline to each child. This means all the kids have the same set of rules to follow. You have a toolkit of disciplinary steps that you follow as well. A ladder method, if you will. One kid will stop after being told once, "Don't run into the street."
Another kid might need to be told several times. If that doesn't work, time outs. If that doesn't work, etc.
I'm guessing that the spanking is the very last resort. Meaning, that one kid tested and tested and tested and finally that disciplinary method was chosen by the parent. Not for want of harming their kid or that the kid is the only one who needs to be spanked. Instead, the kid is the only kid to exhaust all the other methods of discipline and really can't run out into the street.
What Adrian describes is not child abuse. DCYF wouldn't even blink at it.
Child abuse is psychological harm, emotional harm, neglect, and physical HARM.
As in, you leave marks. As in, there's things involved other than an open hand. As in, it's done in hot, harsh anger or cold, calculated malice.
The spankings don't fly out of nowhere. A kid KNOWS the rules and CHOOSES to break them. Repeatedly.
I admit I don't advocate spanking, but I won't let Adrian be accused of harming her children, either.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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If a parent gives children different punishments for the same behavior, then you might have a point. But if there is a policy of the same punishment for the same behavior, and some of the children behave that way while others don't, then it is the children, not the parents, who are in essence "choosing" the level of hurt.
In fact, choosing a method of punishment that does not assign significantly more serious punishments for significantly more serious misbehaviors, simply because one knows that only one or some of the children will ever misbehave enough to merit the more serious punishment, would be a very bad, and indeed a patently unjust and, in the long run, ineffective, parenting strategy.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I could be wrong, but I didn’t see kat saying that parents shouldn’t take differences into account when disciplining children. Nor did I see her saying that spankings = child abuse.
All I saw was an objection to saying that a child “needs” a spanking, as opposed to saying that the parent has chosen spanking as a form of discipline.
kat said the following: "This bothered me, and I just figured out why. It's because the responsibility is placed on the kids - two "never needed" spanking, while the other two did. That's putting the decision and blame for the spanking onto the kids - in one case a 4 year old."
Whether the parents have chosen spanking as one of their more serious punishments or not, it is often true that some of the children will "never need" such punishment, and others will. This is not a fault with the parents. It is a reflection of the reality of childrens', even siblings', different personalities and reactions to rules.
The question whether spanking is appropriate at all, which is also at issue here, is an entirely separate question.
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I don't personally believe that spanking is ever a reasonable punishment. I don't think it's worth getting peoples dander all ruffled over.
Posts: 995 | Registered: May 2003
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I strongly beleive that if you decide NOT to spank, you will never "need" to, KWIM? If it's not an option you will always find another solution. If my child does not get "Don't run into the street", I don't let them out of the front door or car without a holding their hand firmly.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I have to say one major drawback of a spank is that I am much less likely to do it in public. But then, doing a time out in public is also tricky.
So when you see someone in the story with the child being a monster, what do you think to yourself that they really ought to do?
quote:You might say that a spank on the bottom is hardly the same as a sword on the ear." In one sense, no, but in another, violence is violence, regardless of degree, just as sin, whether venial or mortal, is offensive to God.
O_o I don't know the doctrines on venial and mortal. So I'm not sure if I can understand what he's trying to say here.
posted
What do you do when your child breaks free from your firm grip and runs into the street? Kids can be pretty strong and a firm grip when they're pulling can be more damaging than spanking.
I just don't see that method as working. I'm not saying spanking is the only way, but ...
I'm curious, what methods really WOULD work? See, I don't have children yet and I like to collect various methods other people have for future use.
posted
I am very glad to see Mack's opinion on this.
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quote: Kids need discipline, but they don't "need" spanking.
It's been said, but I'll try to say it again in a different way. If a spanking is the only thing that works for your child, then your child needs a spanking. That is, if every other method you can think of doesn't work, then you have to try the thing that works.
I'll apply it to the food analogy. Your kid needs food, and not zweiback crackers, unless they've eaten everything else and are still hungry. Then they need zweiback crackers, because that's all that's left to give and is the only thing that might satiate their hunger.
I'm kind of nauseated by the implication of this analogy though; it sounds like I'm saying a kid is hungry for spankings. *shudder*
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quote: In one sense, no, but in another, violence is violence, regardless of degree, just as sin, whether venial or mortal, is offensive to God.
So taking your child's toy away when they throw it...is that stealing?
Putting your child in the corner...is that kidnapping? Or imprisonment?
Giving your child a firm talking to that makes them cry...is that verbal abuse?
You need to understand that violence and discipline are not the same thing. Sometimes an action is needed to encourage good habits in your child and discourage bad ones. When you choose to discipline your child, you are not choosing violence; you are choosing to do the thing necessary to help them grow. If you can't see the difference, that's a problem.
Giving a kid a cupcake as a reward sounds nice, right? But what about the sugar and fat content? Is it a cruel and harmful thing to feed your child something that's bad for them? Intent matters. Application matters. End results matter. It's not all about This moment, This action, Right now.
posted
I was reading the American Academy of Pediatrics site. They say timeouts should be the last resort of punishment, which is only a small part of discipline. I agree with the latter at any rate.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I'd love to see a graph of that could show trends in approaches to the death penalty, spanking, the penal system, and the prosecution of the War on Terror, I wouldn't mind throwing gun-ownership, level of education, taxes, welfare, and religious affliliation along side, just to see. I actually don't know what a graph would look like, but I do think that there would be some interesting correlations, and I am genuinely curious.
posted
I'm sure we could make one up to suit whatever one believes As spanking has lost public support, autism has been exploding. That must be the real cause! [/sarcasm]
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think I've written this before here, but I was never "spanked" in the methodical "I'm going to give you a spanking" meaning of the word.
Maybe twice or three times in my childhood, on occaisions when I had really crossed the line when my mother was having a bad day and my behavior was completely unresponsive to that, I have been "slapped" or "struck", only once at a time. Where, I don't remember- it is more the psycological aftermath that the actual event that I am recalling. I'm faily sure that it was my cheekm though, and I'm positive it was never my behind. Afterwards I was almost always sent to have a bath or go to bed (usually the evening). In all three or two cases the slap was followed by an apology and an explanation, after I had had some time to think on my actions.
I don't believe I ever had a bruise- it wasn't the pain, it was the action. It was the sign that I'd gone too far.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Look, I'm just curious. Maybe Scopatz could design a study that would eliminate troublesome variables, but even though I have a natural aversion to stats and polls, I wouldn't mind seeing a fair one laying all of these issues down.
The questions would have to worded especially cleverly, though.
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As spanking has lost public support, autism has been exploding. That must be the real cause! [/sarcasm]
