quote: Regarding opinions which are statements of fact about the world:
It is a matter of acting in good faith. If you make a statement of fact about the world which you either know to be untrue, or (if it is a substantial claim) have no good reason to believe is true, then you are acting in bad faith.
I take lying and bearing false witness seriously, despite the fact that I do not have faith in supernatural powers. I do this because I take my responsibility to my community seriously, and I care about my friends and my own character enough to not make statements of fact about the world which are untrue.
This, is, like, why we are all here -- to make a community. Acting in bad faith marks one as someone who is using the people and the community for some private reason, such as scoring points, to the detriment of others.
Using people is bad. Acting in bad faith is bad. It is a clarion call to others to view one as untrustworthy.
I have a sore edge regarding the current US administration's penchant for saying untrue things in a loud voice and repeatedly, as if it were just as good as those things being true. It isn't. It is manipulative and condescending.
That's all I'll say about it, but it isn't the sort of thing one forgets quickly, not if someone takes community and responsibility seriously. "Forgive and remember" is one of the better mottos.
I whole heartedly agree with CT. However, I have encountered a particular variety of religious guilt trip that says that if you've genuinely forgiven you act as if you have forgotten as well, and it is bad taste to bring it up. Maybe it is more on the interpersonal level than the world events level.
What do you think? I'm thinking of Farmgirl and the fact her father was murdered. She can't forget that, it changed her life. The plattitudes the murder spouted after it was pointed out he showed no remorse were exactly of the "forgive and forget" variety that I'm trying to get at the heart of here.
So what do you "forget" and what don't you? Or should we always remember. And if you remember how do you not give in to bitterness?
posted
Remembering is separate from "bringing up again publicly."
I remember in part because you cannot evaluate change without the reference. Remembering does not mean "always holding it against that person," because it can mean "cherishing how rich a life has become."
This is the power of a Speaking, yes? To understand someone fully, the good and the bad, and to know their story. Knowing the story means knowing what happened, and it means understanding the arc of change.
I remember my own failings too. It makes me less likely to repeat them. However, I've never made a point of reiterating someone else's failings from the past in a public venue. I'd take that to be quite gratuitously beside the point.
[I do sometime bring up my own past failings, though it's usually because I get into the sting of self-flagellation. Bracing and intoxicating, even if addictive. ]
[ October 01, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
Yes, A.J., this is one of a biggest obstacles when working with grief.
You feel like if you "forgive" then somehow that signals you are "forgetting" the victim. So some people carry bitterness a very long time because they feel like they HAVE to in order to honor the person they don't want forgotten. (I suffered from that for quite awhile).
Forgiving allows the incident to no longer have any control over me in the present state. It doesn't change what happened; it doesn't change that it did happen, and that it did affect me, and that life was different after it. Forgiveness also, most importantly doesn't remove the penalty.
And I was going somewhere with this thought but lost just where.....so now I'm rambling...
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Was thinking about this partially in relation to my family, where I'm told that I'm the one who has to forgive even though the other person (my grandmother and/or my mother depending) refuses to change or even admit they were wrong. It isn't entirely unlike the current administration's policy on some issues.
But in more personal relations I also have a burn me once Shame on you, Burn me Twice shame on me feeling. But when you deal with these sorts of people, if you take actions to protect yourself from getting hurt by them again, you are accused of not "forgiving" because you obviously haven't "forgotten". They think they are so right that you should just take their cheap shots at you without putting up your own defenses because you *should* hurt since they are right.
posted
Not in those exact terms. But God often says that when He forgives us of our past sins, He "wipes them from memory" or something like that. Anyway, it is implied that God totally forgets them as an act of absolute forgiveness-- makes it as though they never happened in His sight. So some feel, in a striving to be godly, we should do this. I think perhaps that is a little too literal. (can't believe I'm saying that)
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"As far as the East is from the West" I believe is one of the Biblical quotes though I can't remember the reference and I'm feeling to lazy to look it up at the moment.
This book was fundamental for me in thinking through my choice of professions. The author, Charles Bosk, makes a strong case for going on but still remembering. He is a sociologist from the UPenn who (IIRC) spent two years studying a surgical training program, specifically how errors were dealt with from within the profession.
I read a lot of autobiographies, fiction, and analysis of medicine before I went to medical school. Figuring out how to deal with responsibility and certain eventual failure (and again, and again) was incomprehensible to me, at least as I was trying to figure it out on my own. It's one of the big reasons I did graduate school in philosophy -- I wanted to have all the tools possible to face it. Still overwhelming, though.
Great book. I think about it often. Probably markedly influences the other areas of my life, too.
[ October 01, 2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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Anna, I find the trick is in the method. You take the actions to become a better person and to not protect yourself against them, but to allow yourself to be with them and not harmed. Like waterproofing for the soul. Know thine enemy and thus known he is harmless.
And I believe in doing this without calling attention to it, although many people disagree with me.
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posted
If you don't remember, how can you know when you're done forgiving 70 times 7? I used to think that meant virtually infinite. Until I got married.
How can God know all, if he is forgetting what he forgives? Perhaps forgetting is part of his divine power, and it is presumptuous for us to want to be Godlike in that way. I don't know quite how that works in a trinitarian view.
I know I'm edging up on being snarky here, but I believe I can forgive someone without forgetting. We are commanded to forgive "all men" (people). If we accomplish this, I think there is some information that should be held onto to prevent future endangerment of ourselves or others.
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posted
I think it should always be done with out *trying* to attract attention. But sometimes it can't be helped.
For example, at my friends wedding. She asked me to read a prayer. The prayer was written out specifically to be very non-offensive to many different groups or denominations as part of a mulit-faith service.
My mother (attending the wedding) read it, and tried to get me to change the words at the end, to specifically "In Jesus' Name" or "In Christ's Name". I told her I wasn't going to change them, but not changing them, even though it was the right thing to do because it was my friend's wedding and not my mother's, still ticked her off. I don't know how I could have avoided it though or done it any differently.
posted
I'm a little lost. Attract attention to what?
I was thinking of physical assault or abuse. Maybe "Forgive and Forget" is referring to the fact that we forget thousands of positive and neutral things, but we (I) hang on to offenses and slights. Like I think that if you can forgive your mom for being overbearing and later ticked, you still may want to remember never to share something like that with her again.
posted
*smile* Don't tell her you aren't going to change them. Thank her for her suggestion and do what you planned. This diffuses the situation and puts the ball back in her court. If she chooses to bring it up again, this method probably isn't going to work so well because you'll have to diffuse again telling her that you listened to her advice but didn't agree and so made your own decision. However, it may very well limit these arguments to topics that your mother is particularly opinionated about and save you some trouble with the "lesser evils"
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posted
Or after reading it, if she were to bring it up all you should have to do is say that it wasn't a reading you had picked out, and you just read it as it was written because it wasn't your wedding and you didn't feel it was your place to change any part of the ceroemony.
Nothing else left for her to say at that point, right?
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Thinking about how I tend to remember hurts and offenses more than anything good has had a profound effect on me this week. Thanks for posting this.
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posted
Kwea, that is exactly what I did say to her. She still wanted me to change the words.
Sigh, I talked to her (my mother) on Saturday. I know I need to keep in touch. But the subtle jabs do get on my nerves. Some of the time maybe I think I'm overly sensitive and she doesn't realize she's jabbing. But to actually call her on her behavior would result in a fight that I don't want to have.
posted
I don't like "forgive and remember" because in practice it almost always means "don't forgive at all, but pretend like you do."
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quote: I know I need to keep in touch. But the subtle jabs do get on my nerves. Some of the time maybe I think I'm overly sensitive and she doesn't realize she's jabbing. But to actually call her on her behavior would result in a fight that I don't want to have.
posted
Actually, "forgive and forget" in practice almost always means don't forgive nor forget, but pretend like you do anyway.
But even if you are not able to truly forgive somebobody yet, there is value in acting as though you do. Sometimes it is very good for us to act as though we were as good as we want to be.
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posted
Unless you're only acting as you do in their presence, but still abusing their name to others. Then you're just proving how not good a person you are.
I'm sure that should go without saying, but the version of "forgive and forget" I recall from college didn't follow that unspoken bit.
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posted
Hmm....on another note, not going home last Christmas and stopping calling my dad out of duty was the best thing I could have done for our relationship. Perpetuating the situation was making me madder and madder and nothing was changing. Finally getting the strength/courage/despair-fueled-anger enough to cut it off broke the cycle, at least.
Of course, I'm already having anxiety attacks about what the crap I'm going to do for Christmas this year, but I'm mulling over my options. Maybe I'll come up with something by then.
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posted
I've found that pretending to be or act like something that I can't actually be, is the quickest way to give myself an migraine. Being disingenous about myself, even if it is to make the other person feel better, always, always takes a real, physical toll on my system.
I've tried the breaking the cycle by not being involved route, but have yet to find a duration of time sufficiently long for my mother to not start exactly where we stopped. How long do we have to not talk for it to be ok that I'm not having children?
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posted
I find that if I want to feel a certain way, the best way is to act like I already do. If I treat somebody like I love them, it helps me grow to love them. Likewise, if I treat them as though I despise them, it's easy to actually start despising them.
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posted
Yes, I do actually. He calls me about once a week, and he sent me his e-mail address at work, so I no longer have to send e-mails to my step-mother's address and hope he sees them. The last conversation we had was after the personality test - he took it, told me about when he took it last, we determined that we'd be good friends but it's no surprise the whole father/daughter thing doesn't work out, and we talked about what my mother probably was. It was a good conversation.
Banna, I can't tell you how tempting that sounds. The problem is that my baby comes home on December 22, and I have to be there for that. I still don't know what I'm going to do.
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Oh my celia, one of the new and recent jabs was an "If I ever have grandchildren" mention.
I couldn't figure out how to respond to that one, so I let it go. My gut quick retorts would have been.
a) you sound like Mamaw b) do you want me to have kids while I'm "living in sin"? c) are my brothers' girlfriends (although they aren't married) incapable of childbearing simply because you are beefing about the fact they are short, even though they fit all of the correct religious criteria? (Yes my mother is a certifiable height bigot) d)I can't stand small children and you know it.
posted
Celia (and Banna), you could have one of your mom’s friends suggest that she try reverse psychology – act like she completely supports your decision not to have children (or to live with Steve), in the hope that it will get you to change your mind. She’ll probably give it up after a while, but it might be pleasant for you while she was trying. Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
My parents have never ever, ever believed in reverse psychology. It's really too bad. It would have made for a lot less fewer fights. Some of the head on confrontations I had, when I was a teen, when I told trusted adult friends about it they were just flabbergasted, because with the issues involved head on virtually never works!
posted
I thought I'd dig up this thread to muse on a situation I've sometimes heard about but not often experienced until now. Someone has hurt me and refuses to apologize or acknowledge that I have a right to be hurt. (Okay, actually this happens a lot to me but usually with people I can afford to grow apart from. ) They didn't intend to hurt me and as far as they are concerned, that is the end of the story. How do you get over stuff like this? Do you?
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posted
I thought I'd dig up this thread to muse on a situation I've sometimes heard about but not often experienced until now. Someone has hurt me and refuses to apologize or acknowledge that I have a right to be hurt. (Okay, actually this happens a lot to me but usually with people I can afford to grow apart from. ) They didn't intend to hurt me and as far as they are concerned, that is the end of the story. How do you get over stuff like this? Do you?
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Just seeing if it posts this time. I think the computer fairy may be keeping me from sabotaging my life again.
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posted
Just seeing if it posts this time. I think the computer fairy may be keeping me from sabotaging my life again.
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posted
Another thing to remember is that even though you have a right to be hurt, don't wait for an apology to move on.
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posted
I think a lot of it depends on how you define forgive.
Personally, I don't think that forgiveness is a feeling, or even a letting go of feelings. I believe that forgiveness is a decision and a commitment that is sometimes very difficult to make. I have several friends who have apologized to me while I was still angry. I told them I forgave them, anyways, and at that moment I did. It was something I chose to do, angry and hurt or not.
It doesn't necessarily mean that you don't feel hurt or angry, but it means you've decided to actively try to move forward with the relationship (whatever "forward" looks like in context). You've given up the option of holding it against the person, and will challenge yourself if you are doing it.
As far as continually endangering yourself goes or continually behaving the same way towards the person, I think it depends on the situation and the risk/benefits. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a person to earn back your trust. Is "to forgive" the same as "to trust"? Somehow, I don't think so. I do think they are related, though. I think I can choose to forgive someone, but don't necessarily have to choose to trust them in the same way again.
I don't really believe in "forgiving and forgetting." I think if you forgive, how you remember might be colored somewhat more compassionately, though. *shrugs*
It's a complicated issue.
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posted
I think a lot of it depends on how you define forgive.
Personally, I don't think that forgiveness is a feeling, or even a letting go of feelings. I believe that forgiveness is a decision and a commitment that is sometimes very difficult to make. I have several friends who have apologized to me while I was still angry. I told them I forgave them, anyways, and at that moment I did. It was something I chose to do, angry and hurt or not.
It doesn't necessarily mean that you don't feel hurt or angry, but it means you've decided to actively try to move forward with the relationship (whatever "forward" looks like in context). You've given up the option of holding it against the person, and will challenge yourself if you are doing it.
As far as continually endangering yourself goes or continually behaving the same way towards the person, I think it depends on the situation and the risk/benefits. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a person to earn back your trust. Is "to forgive" the same as "to trust"? Somehow, I don't think so. I do think they are related, though. I think I can choose to forgive someone, but don't necessarily have to choose to trust them in the same way again.
I don't really believe in "forgiving and forgetting." I think if you forgive, how you remember might be colored somewhat more compassionately, though. *shrugs*
It's a complicated issue.
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posted
I think you can forgive without forgetting. I think the part people need to work on is not dwelling on it. I think you need to remember so you can learn from it.
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posted
I don't forgive and forget the big stuff, but I will the little stuff. No, I think it's a little more complicated than that. With those I trust, those I know wish me no harm and would never intentionally hurt me, it's much easier to forgive and forget. Then there are all the others who may not care or think about how they hurt others. Them, I don't forget. I'll forgive, when and how I can (forgiveness is a process, not an event in my mind), but I will also use the information I gained from that experience to learn how to protect myself from an individual in the future.
With my parents, since they're so hellbent on hurting me any way they can, I have no contact. Can't afford to. They have no concerns for my welfare, and never have. But mine is a bit of an extreme situation. With others, I will limit contact if contact with them will cause me harm.
I have a cousin who regularly lies and gossips with and about family members. She says some pretty terrible things, and a few years ago, I was on the receiving end. She managed to polarize family members and destroy a lot of relationships. She approached me one time and said she forgave me - for what, I have no idea, since she didn't specify, and I hadn't done any gossiping, lying, or anything of that ilk and hadn't, to my knowledge, done anything offensive to her or anyone else. She then demanded an apology and forgiveness from me. Apology for what she never specified, nor did she ever express any regret over anything she did wrong. Hers was more along the lines of "I'm sorry IF" with the caveat of "there, I've done my duty, now you have to forgive and forget." I told her I would consider her words. A few weeks later, she blew up again and started telling lies again and generally made my grandmother's 85th birthday party (a huge family reunion) difficult. She blamed me because I hadn't forgiven her. Like that logic really follows.
Have I forgiven her? Well, if you consider forgiveness letting go of the anger and hatred and getting on with my life, yes, I had. But I don't owe her a statement to that effect, nor do I owe it to her to allow her to get away with bad behavior. I'm not a doormat, and I refuse to act like one. It is up to me to get on with my life and be happy. But as for this cousin, what she does has no bearing on me - none at all.
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I used to think that meant virtually infinite. Until I got married.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Like that logic really follows.
