posted
Sometimes I wish that you people were all in my living room... I mean, it would be so much easier to get my point across if you were sitting right there. I'm so much better at expressing myself in person... :/ But here I go!
We have an officer at my job (I work at my school's security office) who I will call 11. As near as I can figure, he is very Christian. (AFAIK, he doesn't identify with any particular religion.) But while I was working today, started listening to the conversation he was having behind me with another one of our officers.
The discussion was about whether or not it was religiously sound to have life insurance. Well, it actually wasn't about that. The other officer, 43, who may or may not be Hindu, was talking about having a life insurance policy and then 11 started the discussion, saying that life insurance was a bad idea, and that one should place their trust in God.
At that point I stopped him, and knowing that 43 wasn't Christian, said that it's offensive to think that everyone believes in God. He asked me if I believed in God. I said yes, and what does that have to do with it. And he looked a bit disappointed, as if he would have been happy to try to convert me and said that there's no point in saying that if you ARE Christian. Implying there's no reason for a Christian to consider other people's opinions...
He went on to talk about how fifty years ago they didn't have life insurance and their lives were fine. He said something about believing completely that people who don't believe in God, though they can be good, can never truly be happy, because they're not serving God.
In the end, we were interrupted by a phone call while I was asking him not to judge people, saying that that was God's place, not his. But the conversation got me thinking...
I wasn't surprised that he'd say something about religion. He's well known for being vocal about his views, especially his views regarding women and the fact that their rightful place is at home. He's said before that "If [he] were a woman, [his] aspirations would be to stay at home and raise children." He is very set in his beliefs about God, the nature of the world, and the nature of God's and our place in the world.
My beliefs are very fluid. Fluidity of beliefs is actually a tenet of my beliefs. Or more appropriately, doubting my beliefs. I believe that healthy spoonful of doubt serves to remind me that I do not know the mind of God, and that no one does. Therefore I try to be the best person I can while listening to the views of every side. Sometimes this can be frightening to me... (For instance, if I read too many Chick Tracts at once, I start seeing how someone could believe something like that... No offense meant to people who believe in tandem with Chick.)
I guess the conclusion I came to is that there's no way to argue with Belief. Since I don't dare to believe as strongly as 11 that I know what God is thinking, I am always crippled in our conversations. Because he is allowed his belief as well as anyone is.. The thing that I didn't like was the fact that he seemed to be pushing his opinion on others. The smug, self-satisfied attitude he had. The way he gave me looks every so often while 43 was talking as if to say "Oh, those crazy Non-Christians..."
I guess I'm afraid that I will either swing away from my beliefs in frustration while having conversations with people who believe as strongly as he does, or I will start to believe in a way that I don't want to. To believe so strongly and honestly that I know exactly the right way. He said that he believed that there was only one right way to live, and that is almost directly opposed to the way I believe.
But while someone is making such a point of contention of their religion like that, there's no way for me to express my point of view. The other people who believe that strongly that I've spoken to, and 11 also, have had an answer for everything. The self-righteous POV that I've encountered has just irritated me and made me want to find that chink in their armor that will show them that there is more than one way to think.
But I don't want to be that person. I want to let beliefs be beliefs and let people be themselves and not try to turn people to my point of view... I guess I want to know what any of you would do in a situation like this? Should I just ignore any discussions about religion in the office from now on? I know how to discuss without offending people too much... But it's really a lose/lose situation. Any advice for me? Any reassurance that I'm not the ubercrazyliberal christian that accidentally actually worships the devil while he is the perfect christian? Because that's how it makes me feel... :/
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Ryuko, I'm not sure I can unequivocally state that I believe in God but I can say that I've experienced many of the same feelings that you've delineated. I am really drawn to the concept of religion and related concepts.
I have run into similar attitudes and I spoke my mind. It was an exercise in futility, but, not everyone that has faith expresses themselves in a manner that brooks no arguement. I truly treasure discourse with those that have real faith and can share without disdain or condecension.
I would suggest that you've simply had a run of bad luck. There are those with faith that would discuss issues with you without the head shaking and black and white attitude.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
A more measured response - it really depends on your outlook on life.
Do you disdain all technology? "If God had wanted us to fly, he'd have given us wings" sort of logic.
The other side of the camp goes along the lines of "God made this world and gave us an intellect to use. It is not sinful to use what gifts God has given us to better ourselves and our situation."
Obviously, one could challenge either statement on various levels, but it really does boil down to which school of thought you choose to follow and to what degree you choose to follow it.
For example, some faiths disdain modern medicine because their fate is "in God's hands". Other believers might consider them radical and silly.
Do I share this fellow's belief? Nope. Can I condemn it as being inherently wrong and immoral? Nope.
posted
I, OTOH, will condemn as "wrong and immoral" the notion that if one has faith in God, one shouldn't take reasonable precautions.
I very firmly believe that He not only wants us to do so, but expects -- no, demands -- that we do. There's a Hebrew saying, Ein somchin al nes. We don't depend on miracles. Hope and pray for them, sure, sometimes. But our job is to help ourselves, to put in effort and energy of our own.
I also believe that anyone pushing their beliefs on others is almost certain to be offensive. Sounds like 11 succeeded there.
Hopefully I haven't. *gets off soapbox*
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I would hope that you won't let another person's (misguided perhaps) zeal for their religious beliefs turn you from your own.
If you enjoy having religious conversations with people like 11 and 43, continue to do so. If they are a source of unhappiness for you, avoid them. I would think it unlikely that you will "turn" 11 from his point of view, but if you gain something positive/enlightening from the conversations, continue. I quite enjoy having religious discussions with level-headed, open-minded, courteous people and so I do so whenever the opportunity arises. Conversations with close-minded, argumentative people, on the other hand, leave me frustrated and upset, so I try to avoid them, for my own well-being.
It’s hard, when part of your belief system includes respecting everybody else’s belief system, to deal with people who don’t respect yours. I always wanted to laugh, in college, when the “we-have-the-answers-and-everyone-else-is-wrong” religious students accused the more tolerant (for want of a better word) religions of holding their beliefs because they were “easier.” It would be so much easier to have a system that had all the answers. But hey, no one ever said integrity of belief would be easy. Learning to tolerate intolerant know-it-alls is probably a necessary stage in spiritual development. Or something. o_O
I can tell you that you’re not “the ubercrazyliberal christian that accidentally actually worships the devil while [the other guy] is the perfect christian.” (Unless you wear silver jewelry. Gold is God’s metal, Satanists wear silver – this was actually stated as fact at a campus ministry meeting I was at. The speaker had just returned from a “demonology” conference and was very excited about what he had learned. Apparently all women who wear black are also witches. I’m afraid I wore floaty black dresses and silver necklaces to Sunday worship for the next few months, just to provoke him. Which was not a particularly mature response, and I’m a little ashamed of it now, but there you go.)
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I knew there was a reason I liked wearing black, and frequently accessorize with silver jewelry! Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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If he trusts in God so much, why does he have a job? Why doesn't he sit in front of his parents house and wait for the ravens to bring him morsels of food? Yeah, I know you can't say stuff like that in real life Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: If he trusts in God so much, why does he have a job?
I recall him asking 43 what he wanted out of life and then saying that he would be perfectly happy keeping his College Security job for the rest of his life. Because God frowns on ambition.
quote: Reminds me of the man who was sure God would save him from the flood . . .
Now I'm kicking myself that I didn't remember that joke...
Thanks guys... It's just that from around the middle here, things on either side don't exactly look that far away. Sometimes it's hard for me to tell what's crazy and what's not. I need a laser measurer or something. Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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what happened to the old addage "God helps those who help themselves"? I think there's a large amount responsibility on our part to take care of ourselves, like getting an education, finding a secure job, etc. From a Mormon standpoint, I figure food storage and avoidance of debt is another part of it.
You seem to have handled yourself really well. ((((Ryuko))))
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:I recall him asking 43 what he wanted out of life and then saying that he would be perfectly happy keeping his College Security job for the rest of his life. Because God frowns on ambition.
What about hiding your light under a bushel basket and the parable of the talents? (Is that where the word talent comes from, by the way?)
quote:I guess the conclusion I came to is that there's no way to argue with Belief. Since I don't dare to believe as strongly as 11 that I know what God is thinking, I am always crippled in our conversations. Because he is allowed his belief as well as anyone is.. The thing that I didn't like was the fact that he seemed to be pushing his opinion on others. The smug, self-satisfied attitude he had. The way he gave me looks every so often while 43 was talking as if to say "Oh, those crazy Non-Christians..."
It is interesting that you say you are the one who is crippled in the conversation. That would only be true if the goal is to convince the other that you are right. If that is the case then the unconvincable always has an advantage. But is that the goal?
I would say the goal is to attain the true answers, and if that is the case then he is the one that is crippled by his beliefs, and you are the one free to find it.
I think it is disrespectful to consider other people crippled and unable to see the truth, though - because even though he acts arrogant, you can't really see what's motivating his beliefs from the outside. It's possible he does have powerful evidence that he is right, and that it is this evidence, not arrogance on his part, that is leading him to be highly confident and to attempt to convert others. So I think you still act under the assumption that he is not blind or crippled in his truth-seeking - that he just needs the right understanding to see either why you are right or how he can show you your fault in a way that would convince you.
Then again, I do like to have fun. If someone does that to me and I think they really aren't being honest with themselves, my most likely reaction is to poke fun of them in a friendly sort of way. A favorite tactic is doing the same thing myself, except in an extreme and absurd way that they should know I can't believe. Once the argument is clearly just about winning without respect to truth, why not abandon truth completely? Like when a friend tells me conservatives are evil, I respond by claiming (in detail) that all liberals by definition worship the devil and seek to destroy all that's good in the world. This often annoys them (which is why it's fun) but I think they get the point. Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I would expect that if he expects his wife to stay at home with the kids, he also believes it is his responsibility to take care of them and provide for them. If he dies with no life insurance and leaves them penniless with no place to live, he has not fulfilled his obligation. I think that man is living in sin.
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