posted
I found this analysis on the psychology of liberals and conservatives quite interesting: http://techcentralstation.com/051904E.html "My liberal friends, bless their bleeding hearts, had easy, undemanding upbringings. In some cases they were only children. They never had to work, or if they did, it was symbolic. Everything was handed to them by their indulgent parents. Little was demanded of them; much was given to them. This, I believe, led them to think that everyone else had similar advantages.
But that's false, as anyone who grew up in a working-class family with siblings knows. Many of us worked damn hard for everything we got -- or else we didn't get it. Nothing was handed to us. We borrowed money or earned scholarships (or both) to go to college; we worked long hours in factories during our summers to earn spending money for the school year; we stayed home instead of running off on spring break; we drove battered, unreliable vehicles; we found cheap (but usually wholesome) ways to recreate and entertain ourselves.
If I'm right about this, then many liberals are guilty of projecting their own narrow and unrepresentative experience onto others. They're ignorant of the connection between (1) effort, initiative, discipline, risk-taking, hard work, and sacrifice and (2) wealth. They think money grows on trees, because they never had to work for it. They think everyone else had indulgent parents who catered to their every whim. They think everyone else had parents who bought them a car, sent them away on vacations, paid their way through college, lavished gifts on them, gave them a credit card, lent them money interest-free, provided housing for as long as they wanted it, and so forth.
I'm only speculating here, but perhaps guilt lies at the bottom of liberalism. Liberals feel guilty for having undeserved advantages."
Now that analysis I think deserves credit. Pundits in the media have been trying to figure out why Bush got the working man's (and woman's) support. I think the analysis he provides in this article may hold some answers.
posted
That's odd because the liberal agenda should provide social programs that help the struggling worker and taxes that work to equalize the rich and the poor.
These Americans are crazy! Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Even if you are one of those workers in one of the big department stores (and work full time) you probably make just over the amount that would qualify you for any assistance, but make too little to really have a good lifestyle. Yet you still get taxed. As for people with better working class jobs (i.e. construction) you might get hit with high taxes as well as having to deal with layoffs due to environmental regulations.
This hopefully explains why a European friend of mine visiting the US was going absolutely insane. She asked people all over the place who they were voting for and cab drivers, convenience store clerks, security people, police, teachers were (majority) saying Bush. I have tried to explain it to her and she is finally getting it.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I am so glad that the Republicans in office can empathise with the common man. Everyone knows that Bush spent his summer days at the factory working away. All of the Republican senators and congressmen payed for college out of their own pockets. It really sucks that us privledged liberals cannot connect with the common man. I mean it is hard to imagine what the guy who will work in a factory who sits next to me in class is like. It is just easier to see what the common man is like from the prep schools. Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Most liberal thinking, it seems to me, stops at the midpoint of the arc. It never goes all the way to the consequence of what they want to do. Good intentions, well meaning action... Disastrous results, oops we meant well.
Much like Marx's well intentioned phrase 'from each according to their ability too each according to their need.' In reality it just creates an economy of need, where more need is the coin of the realm.
posted
I'm sure you can find plenty of Democrats who had to work hard to have enough money for college, too.
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
All I am saying is that almost all of our politicians have three things in common 1.Rich 2.White 2.Men I have a hard time believing that any of them are in touch with the average Joe.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Nor do I. My dad is definitely a working class person. He's a self-employed architect. He spends long hours lecturing me about how he had to go to night classes while having a full-time job. As I have said in another thread, he's very liberal.
In relation to most of the conservatives of the country, I'm liberal (although in my own political/social climate, I'm conservative). By no means have things been given to me, or have things been easy. The advantages I've enjoyed are either based off of my own achievements, or based off of oppertunities that have nothing to do with my familial background--which is lower-middle class.
Generalizations are bad, mm'kay?
Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Hmm... Bull.. it really is... Balance and middle ground are things I believe in.. Plus, isn't that more true of a lot of conservatives than liberals?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm not sure what Bush has to do with an explanation of typical republicans. Bush is no more the common republican than Kerry is a common democrat. Generally, those who run for office are wealthy patricians, regardless of party. Bush did a better job of acting like the common man than Kerry, but I think that is more because of his region than his party.
I don't know about the analysis that was presented, but the white working class is typically more republican (AA is of course more democrat). Republicans also dominate the small donations in presidential elections...and prior to the reforms that banned large donations, democrats had the majority of those.
*shrugs* there are likely many reasons for this (Reagan was a large reason that many old democrats defected)...and it may not be a permanent thing. The political tide can shift from decade to decade.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
It doesn't bear out, since most union workers (definitely working class) vote Democrat. And a good number of the silver spoon class are more likely to vote Republican because of what it means for tax breaks.
Do you live in a primarily Republican state? Because I assure you, being in a liberal state, most waitresses, cab drivers, convenience store clerks, and teachers here voted for Kerry.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
An interesting thing to note- Welfare isn't about wealth distribution. Most people on welfare are not about to get wealthy any time soon. You barely get enough money to survive off of...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Sounds like a silly overgeneralization to me. I'm a liberal, and I grew up in a blue-collar family. My step-dad worked full-time in a factory and did farmwork in the evenings and on weekends. During planting season even as a pre-teen I worked all weekend - as did my 4 siblings. Doesn't sound undemanding to me.
By contrast, my friend who is a staunch conservative grew up moderately wealthy in a big city. She never had to have a job or help out. Doesn't sound demanding to me.
Somehow, I think these aren't the only 2 cases that proves even the beginning premise of that analysis as impractical.
space opera
edit: spelling
[ December 03, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
Posts: 2578 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Also there is the whole survival of the fittest neo-social Darwinism thing I hate so much... In other words you're just supposed to ignore the poor and people who are suffering and say, "That's the way things are." People who think like that would sing a different tune if it happened to them. Plus, it doesn't help that poverty=crime to a certain extent.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
"They're ignorant of the connection between (1) effort, initiative, discipline, risk-taking, hard work, and sacrifice and (2) wealth."
What's odd about this essay is that the author, by postulating that most liberals are members of the idle rich and never had to work for their wealth, actually concedes that there is no inherent connection between effort, initiative, discipline, etc. and wealth. Because if there were, rich liberals -- who are apparently the only liberals who exist in this author's worldview -- would not be rich, because apparently they do not know how to work.
He can't have it both ways. Either wealth is not proof of hard work, discipline, and other elements of moral fiber and self-worth, or else all those rich liberals out there are fine, upstanding people with loads of discipline and initiative.
posted
Wealth can mean hard work, but just not this generation. Personally I do not fret about the poor, any class that is as obese as the average american poor person is not suffering to a degree I care to worry about.
posted
BC, I spend $60 every 5 months for food because that's all I can afford. You do the math, that's an average of $12 a month. You know what kind of food I can buy with $12 a month? A lot of starches (spagetti, ramen, etc). Honestly, I don't know much about food types and how it affects weight, but I do know that I'm hardly skinny. And I'd say when it comes to food, I'm rather poor. Well, when it comes to clothes too...but that's a different story. My point being, I, unlike my more well-off counterparts, can't afford healthier food because I need my food to be cheap and have a pretty long storage life.
If you mean homeless-poor, well, I just volunteered at a shelter over Thanksgiving break and the only fat people there were the other volunteers.
As for Liberals not being hard workers, my dad works two full time jobs a week, for low pay, because it's the only way he can afford his rather meager lifestyle. That seems like pretty hard work to me.
Posts: 378 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:He can't have it both ways. Either wealth is not proof of hard work, discipline, and other elements of moral fiber and self-worth, or else all those rich liberals out there are fine, upstanding people with loads of discipline and initiative.
Or they inherited it all from their hard-working conservative parents. Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
*can't picture how it is possible to live on $12/month for food, even if all you eat is Top Ramen*
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
uhleeuh makes a very good point about cheap food consisting largely of starchines and simple carbs. Fresh veggies, even canned or frozen veggies are not cheap when compared to top ramen. Meat? Forget about it.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
And I'm still not that hungry yet, oh mighty foreign sponsor of mine
But really, thank you for the offer. I was just trying to point out to BC that it is possible to be somewhat poor and not be skinny.
And it's easy to live off Ramen for $12 a month. You can get slightly over 100 packages for that much, which is enough for Ramen three times a day if you so desire. The salt intake is probably horrible for me but I'm healthy enough according to the last doctor I saw.
Posts: 378 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I'm a liberal, and I personally have it pretty easy. By that I mean I'm a 4th year university student that lives with his parents - no food or rent costs.
That being said, I pay for everything else myself. My clothes (I've bought two pairs of jeans in the last six months) my recreation (I rent one movie a week, and go for a coffee with friends once or twice) and my tuition (which I work year 'round for)
Between school and work, I just finished a 14 hour day. Tommorow will be another a 14 hour day. In fact, I average 12 hour work days, 7 days a week.
I consider myself to have it easy, because I don't have to worry about where my next meal is coming from. But I work damn hard, too.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
The idea that I'm liberal because I've never had to work isn't even a charming fiction.
I think framing this argument around working for money is a bad place to start. There is a moral element that is being elided. Unless, of course, politics to is all about money, which it isn't. I do wonder how people who understand politics to be all about money lean.
quote:They think everyone else had parents who bought them a car, sent them away on vacations, paid their way through college, lavished gifts on them, gave them a credit card, lent them money interest-free, provided housing for as long as they wanted it, and so forth.
I do admit it. I think it's weird to charge your kid interest. I borrowed a 300 dollars from my mom about six years ago, I've since paid her back, but I do think that it would have been strange if I had had to pay interest.
I don't think that there is a virtue in letting the Fed decide how much to make off of your kid.
posted
Oh dear. I'm liberal because my parents spoiled me! All my years of work were merely symbolic. I must go re-examine my life now...
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Unleeuh, how long have you been on your Raman Noodles diet? There are a lot of nutrients necessary for sustaining a healthy body that just aren't available in Ramen. Seriously, scurvy and worse are distinct possibilities if that's all you're eating. I don't have any idea of your situation, but do you live in a place where you can grow vegetables in the summer, and have the equipment necessary to can them? That can be a pretty cheap, nutritious way to go; when I was a kid my family was on the poor side of things (and yet still liberal! Go figure!), and quite a bit of our food was home grown.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:My liberal friends, bless their bleeding hearts, had easy, undemanding upbringings. In some cases they were only children. They never had to work, or if they did, it was symbolic. Everything was handed to them by their indulgent parents. Little was demanded of them; much was given to them. This, I believe, led them to think that everyone else had similar advantages.
This reads like it was written by one of Dicken's more ridiculous characters, it isn't from the edge of the political spectrum, the guy wrote this has clearly fallen over the edge.
posted
Hmm, I'd say our status as working poor has as much to do with our liberal leanings as anything else. Our insurance premiums have risen every year of the Bush admin. We are really on disaster from true poverty, so why would I vote for people who cut social programs?
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:many liberals are guilty of projecting their own narrow and unrepresentative experience onto others. They're ignorant of the connection between (1) effort, initiative, discipline, risk-taking, hard work, and sacrifice and (2) wealth.
True. Of course, you cans substitute "conservative" for liberals in that statement, and it would still be true. You could put use "men," "women," and almost any other word denoting a subgroup of people.
quote: how long have you been on your Raman Noodles diet?
Well, I'm not really on a Ramen diet. I'm on a cheap food diet. That's just one of the things I can get a lot of for a little money. I spread the Ramen between other meals: spaghetti, enchiladas/chilaquillas (all possible to have because tortillas and cheese can be frozen and are relatively cheap, and the chile doesn't go bad), three flavored rotini, egg yolk noodles, grilled cheese sandwiches (bread can be frozen and margarin is cheap), etc. I get a decent variety of food for my money-all of those are between $.99 and $3.00 each. The trick is making it last for five months until I get more money to buy more food to stretch out.
And David, as soon as body parts start falling off, I'll shoot you an e-mail. Posts: 378 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
The analysis is seriously flawed, but also valid. It describes what may be the reason that SOME working-class people identify with conservatism, and what may be the reason that SOME children who grew up in small families where there was little want end up liberal, but by and large, it doesn't "explain" either liberal or conservative thinking. In that way it is like most attempts to pidgeon-hole one's personal political beliefs and the motivations behind them; that is, it is blinded by the author's own obvious bias and tempered by a belief that everyone who is of a different persuasion MUST be the same.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
"The trick is making it last for five months until I get more money to buy more food to stretch out."
Wouldn't it be easier to just take a second job at a restaurant or fast-food place, where you're likely to get a free or discounted meal AND extra money?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
"The trick is making it last for five months until I get more money to buy more food to stretch out."
?? You only get paid every five months?
I write without any knowledge of your food preferences, allergies, or taboos; or how much time you have to devote to cooking. (Yeah, unsolicited advice on cheap eats).
Try bakery thrift shops or farmer's markets (if they're still open this time of year in your area) for better deals on bread, baked goods, and vegetables (usually). The farmers may also be more open to the barter system.
Try to have on hand: flour#, sugar, salt, pepper, nonfat dry milk powder, eggs, butter or margarine, oil or shortening, bread#, vegetables#, baking powder, rice#, garlic powder.
#Store in freezer if possible. (Wash and chop or otherwise prepare veggies before freezing).
Eggs are a cheap source of protein and will keep for up to 5 weeks (refrigerated) if you buy them fresh. You might find good deals on those at a farmer's market, too (the catch: chicken poop. Be EXTRA careful about sanitation with 'em).
This would add to your diet: eggs and toast (and variations like Toad in the Hole and cheese omelets); quiches; biscuits; stuffing (try flavoring with the "soup" part of ramen noodles); white sauce; cheese sauce; tempura batter.
Potatoes -- quite possibly the cheapest source of vitamin C on the planet. (Don't eat one after it's sprouted, though).
Peanut butter For peanut butter sandwiches, of course; and with the eggs, flour, sugar and baking powder, you can make peanut butter cookies for special occasions.
Dried beans and legumes If you have a crockpot, this is the time to use it. Better if you splurge a little on some salt pork and an onion. Split pea soup, lentil soup, red beans and rice, even black bean soup. (Follow package directions for cleaning / soaking).
Roll sausage Scotch eggs; eggs and sausage; country milk gravy.
Bacon A Southern staple.
Cocoa powder Now you can make hot chocolate, brownies, chocolate muffins or quick breads!
Cinnamon and raisins coffeecake, muffins, quick breads.
Oatmeal Hot oatmeal; johnny cakes; oatmeal cookies.
Other cheap foods: Macaroni and cheese Patio burritos (3 / $1 here; IMHO, the best frozen meal you can get for .33). hot dogs (if you use the bread you already have on hand for buns, you can make cheese dogs, chili dogs, chili-cheese dogs...).
If you splurge on a can of tuna and cream of mushroom soup, you'll have enough ingredients on hand for tuna-noodle casserole.
Eggs can be frozen: <A HREF="http://www.aeb.org/eggcyclopedia/freezing-eggs.html">How to Freeze Eggs</A> Caveat: I've never actually tried it myself.
If you can ever afford syrup (or confectioner's sugar, depending on your preference), you'll have the 'fixins' for pancakes or French toast).
Also, check online for grocery specials. Every now and then my local Winn-Dixie has a 10-lb. bag of chicken leg quarters for .29 / lb. Last week they had boneless, skinless chicken breasts, buy 1 get *2* free (with card) -- it cut the price to about $3 / package (not that they were very big packages).
Also always check your grocery store for: Discontinued items "Scratch and dent" sales (don't buy a bulging or leaking can; it's not worth the risk) 2-4-1 sales (or better) Seasonal produce Store brands
You can also try calling your local butcher shops to see how much they'd charge for soup bones. Then, using Ramen liquid as a base, boil the soup bones 'til done; remove and strip the meat off; put the meat back in the pot, and add any veggies and starches you have on hand. Be sure they know you want "soup bones," not "stew meat."
Hope this helps.
"Annie Mayhem"
Edit: A cursory glance at www.safeway.com shows a few specials at the Safeway on Tanque Verde you might be interested in, if this is your "shopping" week. (Actually, I picked a Safeway in your area at random, since I don't know what side of town you're on. It's easy enough for you to check the one closest to you, assuming you're using a HOME computer! I also wouldn't be a bit surprised if you needed a membership card for these):
Safeway frozen veggies, 10 for $10 Safeway pasta (dried), 10 for $10 Betty Crocker potatoes, 10 for $10 Safeway pasta with meat (canned), 10 for $10 Safeway canned veggies, 3 for .99 2-4-1 Hillshire Farm smoked sausage or kielbasa; that's 2 lbs. for $3.99.
posted
Usually I just buy chicken or something large that costs 6-10 dollars like a roast or something... Chicken legs are cheap and go good with rice. They can be boiled, fried or baked and usually cost around 4-5 dollars for several pounds. I refuse to live off of ramen for some reason... But buying vegetables and stuff is just so expensive... And, I am an idiot when it comes to shopping too...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
This essay is wrong for at least two big reasons:
Most obviously, liberals are not almost all rich, upper-class types. Few are.
And secondly, being a member of the working class does not historically mean you are more likely to be wise, politically speaking. Historically, the rich and upper class have fared better in their political decision making - although they have had many more opportunities to rule. This isn't surprising, because the upper class have the luxury to study things like politics, whereas the poorer do not.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
U- If you are not on a local freecycle list, get on one. First, that's where you can get a free bread machine. Homemade bread is way way cheaper, and you can freeze partial loaves. Make it at least part whole grain. Also, around here, people often list free U-pick- folks with produce they just don't have time to harvest. You NEED produce. Oatmeal is dirt cheap, and is way healthier for you than Ramen. Save veggie scraps and chicken bones for your own soup stock. This is like, free food.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Yeah, I make stock all the time. It boosts the nutritional content of soup or even just noodles or rice cooked in it.
Keep 3 gallon-size freezer bags going in your freezer-- one for veggie scraps (onion peels are good, so are carrot ends, celery scraps, etc., but avoid cabbage, lettuce, broccoli, cauliflower, squash, and other strong-tasting veggies); one for beef bones and scraps; and one for chicken/turkey bones and scraps. If you make spaghetti sauce or something and use a bay leaf, wash it off and throw it in one of the bags for flavor. Once a bag is full, it's the perfect amount for a stock-pot full of stock. And it is low sodium and tastes better than that crud you get in cans.
You can re-use vegetable oil that's been used to fry vegetarian foods (avoid reusing stuff that's fried meat) by straining it over cheesecloth.
Go to your local library and check out the Tightwad Gazette books (I think there are 3 volumes; they're collections from the newsletter that used to exist by the same name). Lots of good tips.
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I was just trying to point out to BC that it is possible to be somewhat poor and not be skinny.![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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