quote:There is something wrong when we mention value in and religion in the same breath, too. What do they have to do with each other?
Although this wasn't the sense "value" was used in, I think religion is intrinsically tied up with value. One of the important concepts in religion is how things should be valued, as in "to rate according to relative estimate of worth or desirability."
Christianity presents this as two propositions:
1. Love the Lord with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself. (Which is also stated as Love each other as I (Christ) have loved you.)
Note that value is intrinsic in all these - the first is given position superior to the second, and the second is described in a fashion that requires relative valuing.
Many, if not most sins, can be cast in terms of improperly valuing one thing over another (or the multiple equivalent). Usually the things be misvalued have some good in them. It is not that one is evil, but that one has more value than the other and is not being treated as such.
The fact that this valuing is not simplistic (A is always more important than B which is always more important than C) is what makes moral reasoning difficult.
posted
My mom always worried about the "harmless" lies parents routinely tell kids. After all, if Santa and the Easter Bunny are bogus, why would God be different? Have you read The Santarillion? I think Dan and my mom have a good point.
As for harmless lies in general, I think we're so used to hearing them that we wouldn't know how to react to the truth. "Does this dress make me look fat" anyone? I always try to ask my boyfriend if I've outgrown the outfit. I never ask if I look fat.
I think the question should be why are most people so afraid to look at who they are that they can't recognize truth? We get so used to polite lies we actively shun truth telling in our children. Why? Because someone's feelings will get hurt. If that's not a cheapening of truth, I don't know what is.
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This guy Vonnegut, he wrote a book about this...
quote:Anyone who cannot understand how a useful religion can be based on lies will not understand this book either.
The book has made me doubt, but it has also made me a positivist, even comapassionate, in that doubt, in the sense that there are likely (not certainly, but likely) metaphysical aspects that I'll never have confirmed, in this lifetime, but the fruits of religious actions in this life can be good, can be meaningful, can be profound, and that should not be squelched regardless of the truth of the underlying beliefs.
I've looked with awe at the Mormon Temple here in Boston (actually Belmont ). I've felt extremely touched by Reform Jewish High Holiday services (guitar and all!). I've admired greatly a Muslim co-worker who fasted at Ramadan, and I've felt serenity at my home church's Christmas Eve service. My doubt isn't solely negative. I am hopeful that there is good emergent from all these faiths, and I hope that whoever is right that their deity looks on me helper, if not a follower.
I think that if religion didn't exist, we'd invent it anyway.
"Live by the foma [harmless untruths] that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy. "
My addendum: And if your foma happens to be True, well, kudos to you!
C.S. Lewis' work and my study of it are actually a big part of my current disaffection for organized religion. I couldn't reasonably justify some of the crap that happened in churches I was part of... *shrug*
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(I already wrote this post and then my computer crashed. Gar. Second time today, too!)
Regarding the Father Christmas Issue: I never was led to believe Father Christmas was an actual man. Oh, sure, my parents told me he was real, but to me he was always the white-bearded symbol of what, to me, Christmas was. Similar, in fact, to how the Greeks percieved their pantheon of Gods. Real, but not literal.
Regarding God/Allah: I was bowled over when it became apparant to me that the stories that were told were the same. And not only were Christianty, Judaism and Islam the same, the same themes went, in various forms, as far back as religion was recorded and probably to the caveman who suddenly woke up with a fantastic idea.
I think the virtue of religion lies not in the fact but the lessons that are taught. They are great themes, great ideas about the world and life and living and the meaning of everything. The stories do not have to be real.
This is why people can live life without religion; because the ideas, ideals and theories can be seperated from the religion's stories.
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My belief in Santa was a strange thing -- I was completely immersed in it, staying up late, listening for sleigh bells, etc...and yet, from about 7-10 yrs old (the age i found out!) i was constantly asking "Tell me the truth, Mom, I want to know if he's real" and having her say "When your older." Which, to any logical child, means "He's not real, but i'm not ready to tell you that yet."
I was not a logical child.
So Santa for me, during that time, was just this really cool thing I believed in that I was just waiting to be disillusioned about. Yet it didn't spoil it for me, somehow. When she finally told me, I was a little disappointed (as if I thought: maybe there's a slight chance...) but essentially I was just bowled over by what amazing liars my parents were. That even though they as much ADMITTED that there was no Santa years earlier, I still continued to believe despite evidence (Hey, what's Santa's wrapping paper doing under the bed?) to the contrary.
Or maybe I just believed because I trusted them so much. That still shows what great liars they were, though.
I even considered, briefly, that when I had children I would continue the tradition. Some serious consideration on the subject has made me change my mind...even if my initial reaction was mild to the revelation, I *still* don't really trust what my parents tell me. At face value, I mean. I'm always thinking "What do they really mean by that, what could they be concealing if this were a lie, etc..." And it's sad, because they both are good people who love me and here I am being doubtful of their sincerity because of a fat man in a red suit that they used to tell me was real.
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I heard something on NPR years ago about a kid who believed in Santa until he was 15 because his uncle would stomp on the roof above his bedroom every Christmas Eve.
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My oldest two children knew the truth about Santa, the Easter bunny (which we really don't focus on, I like to keep Easter focused on the resurrection, so the bunny was never "big" at my house) the tooth fairy, etc. before the started school. Emily is my extremely logical, practical child and I don't think she ever really did believe.
I don't think, once kids are old enough to really ask questions, it should be perpetuated. We treat it like a game, it's fun to pretend things, but the truth is much more important. That's why Christmas and Easter at our home have always been focused on Jesus, and we take great care in reinforcing what the true meaning of the holidays are.
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I think we may be missing the point of Santa here....
If a child has an invisible dinosaur friend and is talking to you about him, how do you respond? Do you tell him there's no way such a thing as an invisible dinosaur friend could exist, or do you play along? Playing along is, in essence, lying to him or at least pretending you believe what he does. But people often do it - why?
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Because trying to make them them give it up may make an insecure child cling more tightly? I don't know, just an idea.
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You play along when they are telling your stories because it's a way of stretching the imagination and having fun. I tell my kids stories all the time, they aren't all 100% factual.
I do not, however, allow my kids to blame things on imaginary friends and get away with it. I tell them that there is no way the dinosaur could have broken the lamp, and that they need to tell me the truth about what happened.
There is a line between real and imaginary, and part of the process of growing up is understanding that line. It takes kids a while to get to that point, you can help them along without stifling their creative instincts. It takes patience and understanding, which are two pretty essential ingredients of parenting.
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"we take great care in reinforcing what the true meaning of the holidays are"
Christy and I had a conversation about this in the car yesterday. What IS the true meaning of Christmas?
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quote:"...And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."
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See, Dag, I'm not so sure that is the true meaning of Christmas. Why? Because the holiday has been celebrated in various forms and for various reasons over thousands of years, and what's stayed consistent -- what is, in other words, apparently more important -- is the trappings. You give gifts, you eat a big meal, you light things up.
Whether it's to make the sun come up or ensure a good harvest or please the Gods or honor the birth of someone who almost certainly was not born around that time, the actual practice has stayed similar -- which leads me to believe that it's the practice which is necessary, and the reasons which are secondary.
In that case, the big meal, the partying, the gift exchange, and the burning of things is the meaning of Christmas; Christ would just be a reason.
quote: But I know what you’re thinking. “The spirit of Christmas isn’t about what the retail stores get out of it. It’s about the attitudes of the people celebrating it.”
So let me ask this question of Christians. If you take Christ out of Christmas, what do you have left? You might be tempted to answer, “Nothing,” but look at it again. Removing Christ from the “Christmas” will leave you with exactly what you have now. Exorbitant giving. Tree-trimming. Stocking-stuffing. Waiting for Santa. “Jingle Bells,” “Here Comes Santa Claus,” and “All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth.” Craft stores. Good golly, I can’t believe I haven’t mentioned the craft stores yet. There are only two things I can think of that might be missed on Christmas if people would finally own up to what “Christmas” really is and leave Christ out all together, and that’s spiritually-themed music and Christmas Eve services. “Maybe,” you say, “Maybe it’s still possible to feel the special feeling that is the ‘magic of Christmas’ without all the spending and presents.” That “special feeling” is called anticipation, and it melts away, just like magic tends to do, when the last present is unwrapped and the paper is thrown in the trash. It may linger a moment as you rifle through your gifts one more time, but it’s likely because you’ve already forgotten what you unwrapped so it’s still sorta new and exciting.
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Hobbes, I really like you, always have, but I found your post to be pretty offensive.
I don't "systematically lie" to my kids when I play the Santa game. The Santa mythos is part of our culture. They're going to hear about Santa regardless of whether I bring it up. It's no worse or better than wishing on a shooting star, picking a four leaf clover for good luck, knocking on wood, throwing split salt over one shoulder, etc. These are myths, they are part of the culture, and it is not *lying* to play the game any more than it is perversely superstitious to do any of the things on the list above. It *could* be perversely superstitious if taken to extremes, just as playing the Santa game could be lying if taken to extremes. But simply upholding the cultural tradition of Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy does not mean you are "systematically lying" to your children. Sheesh.
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You know what's funny? That people equate "X-mas" with "materializing Christmas" when in fact, X-mas is not sacrilegious and/or indicative of the anti-Christ at all! True meaning of "X-mas"
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I never thought X-mas was anti-Christ or anything. It's just something my husband and I use when talking about it to differentiate. It's semi-whimsical.
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quote:C.S. Lewis' work and my study of it are actually a big part of my current disaffection for organized religion. I couldn't reasonably justify some of the crap that happened in churches I was part of... *shrug*
Olivetta, do you mean that reading Lewis made you realize that there is something present or absent in the organized religions you've experienced?
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Jeniwren, sorry! Very poor phrasing on my part, I'll try to clear it up. If I told my children about Santa Clause, I would be systematically lieing to them. Telling you kids about the fable, "perpetuating the mythos" is al well and good, but if I were telling them about Santa that's not what I would be doing, I would be lieing. Not the continual use of the word (or letter ) 'I', because I wouldn't be able to focus on anything else, from me it would be systematic lieing.
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I think there's nothing wrong with teasingly telling your kids Santa brought them a present. Going out of your way to make sure they believe it, especially when they have doubts, is harmful, IMO.
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The meaning of Christmas is hope, and the blind faith that things will turn out well for all of us, despite the terrible things in the world. That is the main theme behind the birth of Christ - the idea that inspite of all that was going wrong, even with Joseph's inability to find home and shelter for his pregnant wife, there was still hope because Christ came into the world. That is why we celebrate children, because it is children who excel at this faith. This is why we have Santa, a character who embodies faith and hope. That is why we have all these Christmas movies and tales celebrating a Christmas spirit of happiness and joy in the midst of supposed suffering. And what better time to celebrate such an idea than the middle of winter, when traditional harvests are done and we only have months of cold, dark day ahead of us. It is the time of year when we need that sort of hope, and Christmas is the celebration of it, because Christ is our savior from spiritual winter.
but no, it doesn't clear it up for me, not really. It would be lying because you feel it would be lying? (In other words, that you would feel like it was lying, so to you it is a lie? If so, how is perpetuating the mythos any different?)Or it would be lying because something about you wouldn't be able to play the game in a lighthearted way, taking it to the extreme of insisting that Santa's real?
And I was only offended for about 15 minutes. Then the Santa side of me got a grip.
Psi, I agree. It's a game only as long as it's a game. Once the child is very serious about it, either in doubts or firm belief, it's time to stop playing.
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posted
Any reason to be kind to someone else is a good reason.
If you don't want to 'lie' then don't, but you can still promote good without spoiling the purpose of the event.
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