posted
Our school board met about this last night and I don't know what came of it yet...
This site is bringing up the issue. The books are Ricochet River and Rats Saw God. I've read the excerpts (they are explicit, just a warning) but I haven't read the novels in question. (Anyone read them? Opinions?)
I know that it's BAD to ban books because once you say no to this book, what's to stop someone from interpreting Anne of Green Gables to be inappropriate?
But I think kids should have a choice of whether or not they read a novel with questionable content. As long as they're 'warned' and given options, I think it's ok.
But then the argument is "well, what SPECIFIC content justifies a warning like that? Shouldn't we start warning parents about Where the Red Fern Grows because there is graphic content about doggie entrails??"
I am baffled by it all.
[edited to take my subject line out of the passive voice. ]
posted
I liked the way they did it in my high school when we read Slaughterhouse Five. If anybody didn't want to read that, they could read another book and do alternate assignments. I don't know if anybody actually took them up on this option, but we all had the option to not read something that offended us.
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quote: A NEW EXCELLENCE was formed after students complained about assigned reading materials at the high school level which contained profanity, graphic violence and explicit sexual descriptions.
Personally, I avoid all three of those things in what I read and watch on tv. High school isn't college where the kids can drop the class and replace it. If a high school teacher assigns a book, you read it or take the F.
Now if the issue were that the books were being taken out of the school library, I'd see it as censorship. Saying it can't be assigned is, I think, one of those things that should have been common sense.
I declined to read the excerpts so I won't comment on them directly.
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posted
I didn't read up on the issue, but I'm just going to say this:
I find it extremely strange, and mildly humorous, that schools see reason to ban books - BOOKS, of all things! - that contain "explicit content," when there is so much trash that is easily available on TV and in film. I'm not, by any means, saying that this is excusable. However, if kids are going to be seeing it anyways, why not expose them to some literature while we're at it? At least we can make them use their imaginations to get to the "explicit content."
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posted
Why don't they just not read the book and fake the assignments? It always worked for me. There is no surer way to write essays that just parrot the teacher's views on the book and then they think you are a genius.
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posted
Exactly Porter. You've got really astute and grade conscious kids, some of which would really rather not read it, but do it anyway because of the grade.
I also don't think it's public education's job to expose them to the crap, even if there's literature along with it. Kids are going to encounter religious proselyting in the real world too, why not do some of that with literature attached to it? (tongue in cheek)
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posted
People can choose to reject things they find objectionable for religious reasons on TV. I think students should be able to choose that as well. If these are assigned books, I believe the teacher must provide an alternative.
As far as having things in the library, there is another line to draw as well. What else is good about the book that makes it acceptable to have such profanity, violence, and sex be part of the school library? The school library doesn't have porn, what seperates these from that? And what, exactly, are the students missing by it not being in the library? The library is limited in space and there is lots of very good literature that isn't there, not because of censorship, but priorities in what they are able to stock.
It is a complicated issue. I'm not in favor of censorship by any means. It is just that there is a line that must be drawn as to what is and is not appropriate in schools. The question is, where is that line and why?
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posted
*puzzles* I always just assumed that if I had a major problem with a book my teacher would allow me an alternate. I never really did, though, so I'm not sure how that would have turned out put to a real life test. I think the most objectionable thing we were asked to read was Lord of the Flies, which I hated but I'm really glad I read. That was how I felt about most books we read in high school. With the exception of The Invisible Man which I just hated.
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posted
Amka, great points. It's the kind of thing I wish more schools would think about before they spend their money on the books in the first place.
It's one thing to not buy the book becuase you want to buy a different book that doesn't have the objectionable content. It's another to spend our scanty school dollars on a book only to have to take it off the shelves because the parents threw a fit. The first is setting priorities with the age and temperment of the general student body in mind. The second is wasteful and leads to speculation of ulterior motives.
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posted
am i the only one that thinks that a school library ought to be limited to text books? it's the public library where you should be going to get other books.
but then, i don't believe that the entire book needs to be made available for a teacher to provide instruction in literature. nor do i believe that forcing kids to read novels in english class is positive. i've come to find that i enjoy books that i wasn't forced to read in school where others that were forced to read them came to hate said books.
edit to add: i'm referring to high school. college is a different issue altogether.
posted
I agree with AvidReader. Keep it in the library for anyone to read if they want to, but making high school kids read Richochet River for a grade is inappropriate.
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I believe fiction must be available in school libraries. Many kids would not otherwise have a source. Even in high school, there are some communities where public libraries are so few and far between that it takes half an hour or longer to get to one. While driving. If your parents don't care, will they drive you there? If you can drive, how much is it a priority for you, especially if you've grown up where reading is not important.
The fact is that fiction needs to be made as easy to pick up as possible, by choice, if we are to help our kids gain a love for literature. I am also against mandatory reading assignments, though I would probably like to have a teacher give out a list for the students to choose from (especially if it is an example of something specific, like period fiction or genre).
Starts to drift and speculate: If I were an english teacher, I'd give my students a survey, so I could highlight books on the list that they would most enjoy, according to their stated preferences.
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posted
gnixing: I'd have to strongly disagree with the concept of limiting school libraries to textbooks. Not all (read most) public libraries are not accessible to anyone without a car, and not all parents are able or drive their kids to the library the day they hear about a good book. Add to that that in many classes I had to research various topics (fictional and non-fictional) at school. Middle and highschool textbooks, while broad, are simply useless for gathering depth on any topic.
While I agree with offering alternatives to potetionally disagreeable books, I strongly disagree with eliminating any liturature with references to profanity, violence, and sexuality. I read well over a dozen of Shakespeare's plays, and a good deal of Poe's short stories in middle and highschool. Both of those authors (or playwrights) would be easy candidates for such censorship, and that would be truly sad, pathetic, and damaging to the education of man (in my humble opinion of course).
posted
maybe i've just been spoiled. growing up, i'd never bother to check the school library for personal reading material.
then again... in Salt Lake County, the public library system is probably one of the best. i've always been within walking/ bike ride distance from two or three different public libraries.
still, i feel a community should expand its public library system rather than focus on filling high school libraries with crap.
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posted
I don't believe in censorship in general -- I'm very much an advocate of free speech -- even of those who say things I don't agree with.
However - reading the "excerpts" of these books that I saw on that link from the first post -- wow, that is really graphic. I'm more disappointed in the teacher who would think it would be okay for kids to read this. I mean, just because it looks to me to be poor writing, as well as graphic.
So what was the point of the teacher making this assigned? Were they just trying to push the limits to see what they could get by with; or are they a spoon that just likes to stir up trouble? I mean, are either of these books considered really good examples of literature?
As a mom, I wouldn't want my kids reading this. As a citizen, I still don't believe in censorship
posted
Yeesh, you sound like a book at your HS library jumped off a shelf and bit you or something.
I would have to disagree that highschool libraries are full of crap. I know that mine (and the schools of my friends) was full of a good variety of the educational, the classic, and the entertaining.
Besides, the funding for highschool libraries (state) and public libraries (municipal) are most often seperate. It doesn't work to say they should give up the schools and give the money to the public. Doesn't quite work that way.
And you could well be spoiled to your library system. I know some cities that simply don't have them, or don't have branches, or only have trade books. I's wager it is not unheard of for school libraries to be the only access to books kids have. In an ideal world, I would agree with you that public libraries should cover all our needs. But that's so far from the truth, it's depressing.
posted
In a small town in Michigan where I went to school, the high school library WAS the public library.
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posted
I see no reason to ban them from the school library, but assigning those books -- both clearly vulgar, and both clearly not stellar examples of the written word in the first place -- seems rather pointless.
posted
As a (hopefully) future educational librarian I am decidedly against banning of books on a general principle, but I do think that age appropriateness is something that needs to be taken into account when selecting resources for a school library. School libraries are not public libraries, there is differnet selection criteria that needs to be applied when deciding what books to put in there.
I read the excerpts, because I didn't want to comment on something I hadn't read, and let me tell you, I felt physically ill after getting halfway down the page - I didn't read them all, even though I had planned to.
One thing that I find significant is that this is not a group of hysterical, religious parents asking for these books to no longer be assigned - it is the students themselves. I think we should listen to them. Certainly one can't be in a situation where you allow the students to always dictate what learning materials they use, but when some of them are offended by the content of the books they're studying then parents and educators definitely need to re-evaluate their choices.
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posted
After reading the excerpts, I'd say that's not appropriate for a high school classroom assignment.
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posted
I'm impressed with how it says the School Board Chairman handled the proceedings. I've been to many SB meetings which erupted into circuses, or heated debates, with no one having control. This sounds like it it was debated openly and professionally.
posted
I guess there is another possible motive- the teacher thought that if they assigned porn the kids would be more likely to read it. And reading is good, even if you don't agree with everything in the book, right? It's like those calcium enriched pieces of fudge.
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posted
Well, I don't know that I would define it as porn (since I'm not sure of the definition of such) but I will admit just reading the excerpts had a ...uh..."effect".. on me -- and I'm an old has-been. I can imagine what kind of feelings these hormone-ravaged teenagers were having while reading it.
quote:Superintendent Ron Naso then told the Board that he supports a district staff and parent committee's recommendation to allow the use of the book with parental notification and an option for students who do not wish to use it.
That would be acceptable to me, as a parent.
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posted
Well, I bet they dwell on reading them, but they probably don't dwell on discussing them in class. Presumably, the teachers would have no direct knowledge of the former, so I expect the context was that they were noting the latter.
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But good literature can be porn. I'm just not sure that this is good literature. I'd have to read the rest of the book before I'd comment on that.
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posted
See, I wouldn't find it acceptable. Either you teach the book or you don't; you don't ostracise the kids who don't like the book.
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1. Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal. 2. The presentation or production of this material
The author may say that his primary purpose of those scenes was something other than causing sexual arousal...but I would never believe him after reading those excerpts and the way the "read like a letter to Penthouse."
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posted
I said I'd find it acceptable, not that I'd find it ideal.
If the book is going to be taught regardless, I'd appreciate the notification and the option of another book for my child.
If I were able to make the decision myself, I'd prefer the teacher not teach the book at all, but choose something that isn't badly written porn.
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quote:Teachers said that students rarely dwell on the passages in question.
Glad I wasn't the only one to have a reaction to that statement! I snorted out loud when I read it!
Sheesh. I was in high school when "The Godfather" was published and became a bestseller. I read the whole book, but there were a couple of pages I read much more often than the rest of the pages. (Many of my classmates (male and female) only read those particular pages! (It wasn't my book they were reading! Honest!)
Rarely dwell on them?
I wonder what else gets by these teachers? Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Well, I bet they dwell on reading them, but they probably don't dwell on discussing them in class. Presumably, the teachers would have no direct knowledge of the former, so I expect the context was that they were noting the latter.
[ January 07, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
Based on the excerpts I'd say pull them from the required reading lists.
However, I would never make such a decision on a book after reading selected excerpts out of context. As Amka already asked, what are the benefits of the books? Why are they on the lists? I've never read either, I don't know what the students are expected to learn from them.
I don't have enough information to make a decision yet.
[ January 07, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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posted
*psst* you ARE a crotchety old man. (not you Chris, zgator.) And Chris, you beat me, I asked some of the same questions.
What floors me is that the teachers would feel that this book has SO much literary value that it's worth the smut/porn that is plainly and prominently placed in it. Are there literary lessons in this book that cannot be taught with another book? I highly doubt it.
This isn't the first year they've tried to teach this book, so obviously the LA teachers see something in it...
or are they just teaching it for the shock value? Are they doing it to see if they'll be challenged and arguing, not because they think the book is valuable, but just because of the principle of the thing?
I mean, now that this has gone on, everyone is going to go read those passages now anyway. Was that the point? A publicity stunt? I know I'm probably being ridiculous here, but I'm just trying to think of why this book has so many advocates.
posted
Oh, and just to add, this kind of relates to a discussion I've had with friends over R-rated movies. The way I see it, violence like that found in war or (more generally speaking) in human nature can be appropriate for a moviegoer (or in this case, a reader) to experience, because IF it is done in a way that is not gratuitous, but telling a bigger story, then it works. And works well. Movies that come to mind are Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brother, Passion OTC. Books -- Night by Elie Weizle, possibly A Seperate Peace. Violence often makes something rated R (or the equivalent in the written word), which I don't consider to be a harsh judgement. I don't consider it to be a bad thing, either.
Sex, in my opinion, is never appropriate. In movies it is most often added just to get an R-rating for the piece, and in many many cases adds absolutely nothing to the story.
I don't know if the book in question has any true redeeming qualities outside of the explicity, but the fact that it has it in the first place demeans whatever he was trying to put across in the first place.
quote:Sex, in my opinion, is never appropriate. In movies it is most often added just to get an R-rating for the piece, and in many many cases adds absolutely nothing to the story.
Sex can add something to the story, but it doesn't need to be shown. It can be suggested. If it's important to a movie storyline that characters have sex, then the camera can show them embracing and kissing, then cut away and show us the couple waking up in bed next to each other the next morning. Everybody knows what happened, but we didn't have to have it shoved in our faces.
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posted
My take (and this is notably just an opinion, not an argument): porn can be good literature. Graphic sex can be important to a good story. However, most porn definitely isn't, and most good stories don't require graphic sex.
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posted
I disagree, but that's hardly surprising. Explicit violence bothers me a great deal more than explicit sex, yet I recognize it's usefulness in making a point. I do think sex is overused, generally for sensationalistic purposes, but I don't think it has no place at all in movies and especially not in books.
The author may need us to be in the mindset of one (or both) of the characters so that events before, during and after have the same impact for us that the characters experience. I don't see the need for it in every book that details a relationship, or even most books, but let's not rule it out wholesale.
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posted
We're the Defenders of Graphic Sex. It's like a superteam, only with fewer costuming requirements.
(And yeah, Porter, I don't think anyone here is requiring that you submit to graphic sex for the good of the country. You're perfectly wellcome to stick to stories where the sex happens off-camera. The only cost is that you miss out on stories that might have otherwise been good.)
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There is no surer way to write essays that just parrot the teacher's views on the book and then they think you are a genius.
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I'm just really tickled that you agree with me, sacracticmuppet.
