posted
When did Liberal become a nasty epithet? In the days of FDR being a Liberal was for the good of the people, but now you proudly proclaim yourself a Liberal and it's like you've proclaimed you love genocide or something equally atrocious.
I won't blame the conservatives for that entirely, though I believe they play a role in it, just as the left plays a role in demonizing the right. But I certainly don't think it's a fair title.
I think we should be able to proudly proclaim ourselves whatever we want. And I think it's fairly rude to take the title (liberal) of well intentioned people and turn it into an insult.
"You're a flaming Liberal" should be a compliment, not a joke.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here’s a good place to go to see what the founding father’s really thought: http://www.americanvision.org "Equipping & Empowering Christians to Restore America's Biblical Foundation"
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
(Hey y'all, it is possible to let the thread speak for itself. That's my preference if Jay chooses to keep the "Landmark" in the title. Rather than debate what does and doesn't count as a "real" one, if this is what he wants, then let it go. Just one person's opinion, of course, and having nothing to do with either pillars or the pillory. )
Jay, I really really liked Treason, too. Though the series are wonderful, there is something about his stand-alone works that I find sharp and refreshing.
Did you identify with Alvin and Ender? Were there parallels to how you saw the world around you, growing up? I found adults to be perturbingly saccharine in talking to children, for the most part. It was eerie to see this reflected in OSC's characters.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think I kept pointing it out because I wasn't sure that *he* knew what a Landmark really was.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: "You're a flaming Liberal" should be a compliment, not a joke.
I do consider it a compliment to be called a radical right winger!
And if I get called a bigot it’s even better. Today’s definition of bigot is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal! Fun!
JFK for the 2005 liberal: “Ask not what you can do for your county, but what your country can do for you!”
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd parody that "aligning yourself with evil" quote, but, that would just cause the thread to degenerate even further.
Jay, it would be EASY to align current GOP positions with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Caligula, Genghis Khan, etc... but it doesn't actually accomplish anything, and making such comparisons are 99% of the time not meaningful, and label the person making the comparisons as not very thoughtful.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: Did you identify with Alvin and Ender? Were there parallels to how you saw the world around you, growing up?
Nahhh….. I’ve never meet anyone as smart as Ender. I did like his philosophy very much though. Alvin? I don’t know. OSC characters are always the best at everything. I seem to be ok at a bunch of stuff. I doubt I’ll ever win the Boston Marathon, but an OSC character of me would! Which is great. Always go for the best and what not.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are an awful lot of people I respect who consider themselves conservative. People with strong views on family, good government, free enterprise, personal responsibility, and personal liberty. I would have few beefs if such people were running the country.
Posts like Jay's and commentary from Rush and Ann Coulter represent (to me) the extremist, every-problem-is-a-nail type of conservative. It is this type that I fear is taking power.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: Consider that to be a Liberal, you actually align yourself: With Adolf Hitler, who as Liberals would like to do, took away the guns of his citizenry
Opinion statement:
quote: comparisons are 99% of the time not meaningful
The context is that liberals like gun control, so did Hitler.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
So, your argument, then, Jay, is that all liberals want to ban guns, and that this makes them like hitler, correct?
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: Posts like Jay's and commentary from Rush and Ann Coulter represent (to me) the extremist, every-problem-is-a-nail type of conservative. It is this type that I fear is taking power.
I love Ann Coulter. She rocks. Tim Brady, Glen Beck, Hoppy Kercheval, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Tony Caridi, Michael Savage.
What a great line up!
I like Zell Miller too!
Yes, I got called an extremist. Sweet. Oh, by the way, it’s not taking power. Its TAKEN power!! Yahoo!!!
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: So, your argument, then, Jay, is that all liberals want to ban guns, and that this makes them like hitler, correct?
No the statement on that website was to be a Liberal, you actually align yourself with Adolf Hitler, who as Liberals would like to do, took away the guns of his citizenry. Consider whatever you want, but if you want to ban guns, you align yourself with Hitler.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Heh, it may be because I read Tom's response before reading the speech, but the number of times Bush used the word "freedom" or "liberty" really stood out to me. And in a number of different contexts, too.
I wonder what President Bush would come up with if pressed to define "freedom" in a few sentences. It can be a nebulous concept -- most everybody agree that it's something positive, but I bet that the versions that people on opposite ends of the political spectrum subscribe to may differ vastly from eachother.
posted
Tristan, I felt the same way... His speech seemed a bit hollow to me because of it.
i really should try to ignore this guy unless he is talking about food, but, suppose you don't want to ban guns but just LIMIT guns and keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them like convicted fellons or men accused of stalking their ex-wives and young people? Isn't that reasonable?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
An aside - my respect for CT, already embarassingly large, is growing by the minute just in this thread.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
"No the statement on that website was to be a Liberal, you actually align yourself with Adolf Hitler, who as Liberals would like to do, took away the guns of his citizenry"
Well, first of all, I haven't seen any proof that liberals want to take away the guns of the citizenry. Most arguments I've seen from liberals have to do with registering guns, licensing gun dealers, restricting assault weaponry, etc.
Second problem here, of course, is that german gun control was undertaken in 1928, by the Weimar Republic... and it wasn't until hitler had a death grip on power in germany, in 1938, that he did ANYTHING about gun ownership in germany. 5 years after he took power.
So, in other words, the context is that you're spinning for all you are worth. Those advocating gun control aren't aligned with hitler, otherwise they would wait until they had absolute power and THEN enact legislation. A more legitimate comparison would be to the weimar republic government, though that wouldn't be a legitimate comparison either.
Using your logic, conservatives align themselves with hitler, who legislated against homosexuals.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
Oh that is grand. This from the group where good news for America is bad news for liberal. The economy is doing bad. Great news for liberals. The economy is doing good, bad news for liberals since GOP is in power. Someone dies in Iraq, great news for liberals because they can spin it bad for the GOP. We open a school in Iraq, bad news for liberals since that look good. Afghanistan holds successful elections, bad news for liberals since what we did there was right. If we get hit by another terrorist attack, great news for liberals since that’ll mean Bush and the GOP didn’t do enough to protect us even though the Democrats stood in the way of everything. Anymore almost anything that is good for America is bad for liberals and anything bad for America is great for liberals. Yeah, who hates America. HA!
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Guys, Jay is trolling. He is, in fact, engaging in what used to be the classic definition of troll behavior, back before the script kiddies showed up on the Internet.
I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and believe that these are his real opinions. However, he presents them as evangelical truths: a way to rile up his enemies and impress their women.
By attempting to get him to "see the light," you will only cement his belief that this kind of political ranting is the best way to get attention -- and because his sort of troll always gets their information and their sense of self-worth from somewhere else, even if it's an imagined lurking audience, you won't get through to him this way.
So I would recommend CT's approach, which isn't as subtle as it could be but remains graceful nonetheless. Do not engage him on points he is clearly prepared to "discuss," as this will only generate reams of mindless doctrine copied from other websites. Rather, attempt to engage Jay as a person, distinct from his political opinions.
We do this all the time with people with whom we disagree. The difference here is that Jay is being deliberately impenetrable. But if we reward his deliberate obfuscation with our attention, we only encourage him to remain behind his obnoxious facade.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Troll or not, I just want to hear discussion about this inauguration speech, which gave me a feeling of horror. He did say freedom, I believe, 21 times, Tom.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: So, Jay, whaddayawanna do with your life? What are you striving for the best in right now?
Do with my life? I’ve got my degree (Computer Engineering) working on a NASA project for JWST (James Webb Space Telescope) which will replace Hubble. Tried to become an FBI agent. Didn’t happen. No big goals I’m striving for right now. Just living live and enjoying. I run a lot. Did the Marine Corp Marathon last October in DC and am going down for the Tampa Bay Half Marathon in February. Also working with my county GOP executive committee, that I’m on, for our Lincoln Day Dinner. I stay active at my church and run its sound room. So I stay pretty busy. Except for slow times at work like today! Fun! Cool?
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, now that I think about it, he actually reminds me a bit more of CStroman than BC. What ever happened to him, anyway?
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was gonna make the same comment (only less eloquent) Tom, but I realized that Jay's been here over a year. His trolling must have just needed time to gestate. He's not just a troll, he's a troll/cicada.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just wanted you to know I support you and your viewpoint on most things, Jay.
I am well aware that TomD and Elizabeth and others don't agree, (and I have been around long enough to no longer feel like arguing points) and I respect their right to disagree and have their own opinions. This freedom of speech is part of what makes us America.
But I didn't want you to think everyone was against you on this. (and no, I haven't read the entire thread, due to other things happening in my life today)
Wrong again Tom! I’m a conservative 100% through and through. I trust Bush, believe in him, and pray for him all the time. I might not agree with everything he does but I know he knows what is best. Attention? Ha! It’s more fun on the WVsports.com message board where they talk about what the board is for. Here somehow OSC has been transformed into some kind of liberal Mecca where even OSC’s conservative side is no liked much.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jay, you're a silly, silly boy. But you like SG-1, so you can't be all bad. Just...cool it, would you? Please?
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Just wanted you to know I support you and your viewpoint on most things, Jay.
You’re the best Farmgirl! I knew you were pretty conservative and one of the reason I never truly gave up on this board over the years.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Wrong again Tom! I’m a conservative 100% through and through."
You misunderstand, Jay. Trolling does not consist solely of making up an imaginary position, although that's a more common modern usage nowadays. You can also troll by being completely honest but deliberately offensive with your comments, which is currently your approach.
I will like you much better if you'd give it a bit of a rest and engage us in actual conversation. You would also, I believe, be pleased to discover how many actual conservatives are on this forum but have been so far avoiding this thread out of fear of being associated with your opinions and methods.
--------
BTW, Elizabeth, I wasn't joking about finding it a beautiful speech. While my cynical side picked up on some of the Orwellian connotations, I think the overall sentiment is a lovely one.
Unfortunately, those Orwellian tones and the very martial, separatist notes being deliberately struck here are a concern to me, not least because Bush appeals most strongly to the segment of the population who is likely to be stirred and excited by that wording without understanding the semiotic reasons why. It does not give me much hope.
posted
My Economics teacher let us watch the speech during my economics class, or rather the last ten minutes of it. Then he forced us to watch about 40 minutes of Fox News commentary on it. People if anyone, ever denies that Fox news is anything but a cheerleader network for Bush's administration, or at the very least that it's baised, I will... umm... give them a really nasty mental glare *glare* But seriously now, the commentary consisted of the commentators declaring that the speech was the best they'd ever heard, and taking stabs at various liberals and liberals in general.
quote: So, what are you doing with the James Webb Space Telescope Jay? That sounds interesting.
Well, we’re IV&V here. That’s Independent Verification and Validation. Basically we take all the requirements, specifications, code, tests, and any other stuff for the spacecraft software and make sure they’re not making any mistakes or missing anything. Sort of like that one that went to Mars and they used SI units in one place and English units in another and the spacecraft crashed. Well, that was before IV&V. So.. hopefully we’ll catch that stuff and have a happy successful mission. Plus if you catch these things early on it cost less to fix them. I’d much rather be building stuff or doing things myself. Fun!
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: People if anyone, ever denies that Fox news is anything but a cheerleader network for Bush's administration, or at the very least that it's baised, I will... umm... give them a really nasty mental glare *glare* But seriously now, the commentary consisted of the commentators declaring that the speech was the best they'd ever heard, and taking stabs at various liberals and liberals in general.
Fox reports, you decide. I imagine that coming to someplace that just reports news instead of throwing a liberal slant or making fake documents is a big shocker to those used to the alphabet news (ABC, CBS, NBC) and the Clinton News Network (CNN). Sure their shows like “Hannity and Colmes” or “O’Reilly” have bias. But when they do a news report that’s what it is. It’s not how I’d have a GOPNews. But it is nice to have something that’s neutral instead of the main stream liberal media. Go ahead, say it. You don’t think the media is liberal. Ha! Well, just spend a little time here and try to say that: http://www.mrc.org/Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
And that just reveals how baised you are Jay. Did you not see what I said about the commentary below that comment? They are widely known, to many conservatives as well as liberals, to be extrodinarily baised in their 'news' coverage.
There is some liberal bias in a lot of the media, there is also some conservative bais in some of media. But none of the baises come even close to the bais of Fox News.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
