posted
There's a big computer graphics convention every summer, and it's discussed in depth on one of the CG forums I frequent. I haven't had a chance to go to this conference yet, but I hope to next year (I also hope to enter a short film into their animation festival and kick some butt. I have a lot of hopes. )
Last summer, one of the threads on the CG forum was about the parties being hosted by big-name CG studios during the week of the conference. Someone mentioned that they wanted to get a ticket to one of the parties, because some rock band he liked was going to be playing, but the tickets had all been given away already. Someone else responded and said that he didn't need a ticket, that any guy who brought three females with him was allowed to enter.
I couldn't believe my eyes, I thought they were joking. So I asked, and they said that not only were they serious, but that that's how most of the industry parties work at this conference. They said that, without such a rule, there would be no women at the parties, and that would be lame.
Now, I've seen such rules before, at the frat parties on campus when I was a freshman. Usually from the most stereotypical frat houses. I was annoyed by it then, but to see it coming from some of the most respected companies in the industry, at official company-sponsored parties?
So I posted again, saying that I thought that was ridiculous and sexist, because it clearly set up the women attending the party as being mere eye candy for the enjoyment of the REAL guests: the men. Furthermore, as a woman entering this field, I would be seriously pissed off to attend such a party, just to be lumped in with the girls who were there only to give the guys something to drool over. Ugh.
But they all thought I was being ridiculous, because that's the way all the companies do it, since there are so few professionals who are women. I felt like I was being some sort of extreme feminist looking for something to get offended by.
I don't know. What do you all think?
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
As a female engineer I'd be pissed too. However if I wanted to go to the party, I'd take two female friends with me and then we'd get in for free and could dis the stupid guys for being idiots.
posted
That's not just offensive. If it's true, it's the kind of thing that the press jumps all over as a chance for an expose story.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
"If it's true, it's the kind of thing that the press jumps all over as a chance for an expose story."
No, not really. It's pretty much common knowledge. Heck, most bars and nightclubs still operate under a version of this rule.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I think its sexist to do something like that and I can't believe that would be policy. I think thats terrible and you give'em hell for it!
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I'm trying to imagine what going to one of these parties would be like. I have the feeling that the stench of desperation would be rank in the air.
If I do ever go to one of these things, I'll be sure to have my wedding band upgraded to be 10x larger, with "TAKEN" crawling across it, stock-ticker style.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
So, Tom, what's your opinion of such policies? Do you think it's reasonable for them to try to even out the ratio of males to females? Should that even be a priority at a company-sponsored event?
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
It's not sexist to ask men to bring a bunch of women to the party.
It is sexist for the men to assume that the women are stupid, etc.
quote: So I posted again, saying that I thought that was ridiculous and sexist, because it clearly set up the women attending the party as being mere eye candy for the enjoyment of the REAL guests: the men. Furthermore, as a woman entering this field, I would be seriously pissed off to attend such a party, just to be lumped in with the girls who were there only to give the guys something to drool over. Ugh.
This does not logically follow. It's an assumption (and possibly sexist?) on your part to think that the men would not respect you for who you are.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
umm so as a female at almost any type of computer conference you're pretty much going to have to expect to be somewhat of a spectacle. I try to make it work to my advantage. I don't really care if the reason person x is talking to me is because I'm a girl. If I can learn about their ideas and such then whatever.
*shrug* I mean I guess it bothers me but I'm starting to get used to such things being that way. I guess my response would have been oh so if I come by myself and am a girl do I just get in?
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I'm not a fan of such policy, since it's clearly sexual discrimination. The problem here is that these companies are torn between wanting to make the parties fun and making the parties professional, and they don't always come down on the right side.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
It sounds like a setup for objectification and possibly assault and rape, if there's enough intoxication going on, to me.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
No, it's still sexual discrimination, Storm. They're not encouraging people to bring women to get more women interested in CG as a career; they're encouraging guests to bring women to make sure there are women at the party. Which is an important consideration at any party that's going to involve dancing (and even CG geeks dance, in ugly, lurching ways, their ponytails bobbing awkwardly), but is not exactly a professional consideration.
I prefer my conferences to be humorless and unentertaining for precisely this reason; attempts to entertain are almost guaranteed to backfire.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I feel it is sexist because they told people to bring three females with them. If they just told everyone that their would be dancing, etc., and to bring a date it wouldn't be bad it all. I think this bring three thing takes it too far.
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Encouraging more of one sex to be at a function so that the sexes are evenly represented is not discriminatory and says nothing about how the men or the company treat the women. If the company were to keep women or men out, or treat them differently, because of their sex, that would be discriminatory.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I dunno, sarah.... I mean, part of me just wants to go with the flow and accept that this is how things are in a male-dominated, especially male geek-dominated industry... but I'm really uncomfortable about having it spelled out like this by the very companies I could see myself wanting to intern at or work for some day. I mean, I want to be treated the same as my future male coworkers, not feel like I was hired because the office would be more fun with women around. I understand that a lot of geeky CG guys out there are terminally single and somewhat desperate, but frankly, that scares me, and I don't particularly like being reminded of it.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I don't think that there's anything intrinsically wrong with the setup. There aren't many women who come to these things and having women at parties usually makes the party more fun for the people there. Where the problem comes in is the (in my opinion warranted) extrapolation that you're making that women at these things are going to be seen primarily as eye-candy.
That's not a problem with the structure. It's a problem with the people. You're basically complaining that guys in CG are socially insecure geeks who look down on women. Wow. Big suprise there. If you, as a women, go to a male dominated geek party, you're going to be objectified and not respected. That's not how it should be in a perfect world, but that's reality.
I don't know. I have problems getting worked up about the basic socialization inequalities between the sexes, especially when we're talking geekdom.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Ridiculous! No women? We're not in the - excuse my vulgarity - phuqing 17th century!
As a man, I feel it very offensive that people of my sex treat the other sex like that. Full equality - that's the rule.
I'd have said "take your biggest-breasted friends and get in there", but that's not any level higher. Honestly, I belive that you should complain, and make the biggest fuss possible. Go as far as needed, just to prove your point.
I'm truly outraged by this behaviour. Shame upon those damn bastards who made up the rule!
quote:There aren't many women who come to these things and having women at parties usually makes the party more fun for the people there.
Why? Seriously?
Does it make it more fun for the PEOPLE there, or for the MEN there?
Say there isn't going to be dancing involved. Why does it matter whether there are a lot of women there or not?
I think what bothers me most is that these parties are for CG people. It's a very technical field. If I went to one, I would want to spend a good amount of time talking shop, or at least talking about my other nerdish interests, like how lame it was that FOX cancelled Futurama, or the relative merits of Family Guy's writing team. By encouraging guests to bring anyone with a pair of boobs, it ceases to be a fun gathering of professionals. If 5% of the guests are women who know something about CG and computers in general, but 30% of the guests are women who were brought along just because they look pretty... Ugh. I'm having trouble nailing down exactly why it bothers me.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I don't find it bad to say having equal sex representation at a party makes it more fun. I think that being only one of a few guys at a mostly all female party can be less fun and having only a few women at a male dominated party is less fun aswell. Not anything related to dating or dancing either. Just that guys and girls tend to do certain things differently and a party with alot of both is more fun.
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
You know, as one of the, say, 5% professional women at such a party, I wouldn't get any enjoyment at all out of the, say, 30% non-professional women. I would far prefer to be surrounded by 100% people who shared my interests. That would be the point of going to the party, for me.
However, I'm not always the best indicator of people's social reactions. Would that just be me, or would most women in this field prefer to have other women around, regardless of interests?
Edit: Also, I'm wondering, when this kind of expectation is set up at a party, if it makes it more acceptable for the male guests to see the women as eye candy. Like, if they knew that the only women present were there because they love CG and computers, then the guys would have to accept them on those terms, and treat them the same way that they treat their male colleagues. Because that's what the women would be: colleagues. When a staggering percentage of the female guests are NOT colleagues, and indeed don't even share many of the same interests as the professional guests at the party, doesn't that sort of send the message that the women are there for the men's enjoyment?
posted
What's the difference in a pair of testicles talking shop and a pair of boobs talking shop? [Although I do realize with some nerds, this doesn't narrow the field much, but work with me here...]
If the point of this party is industry or theme specific rather than a social mixer, then the priorities should be adjusted accordingly.
posted
See, and I may be mistaking this, I figure the central function of the parties is for people to have fun, while also providing an opportunity for networking. I could be completely wrong about that. If these are working things, then I'd disagree with that policy, not because it was sexist, but because it would diluting the capability for the people to work.
As a verteran throwing of parties for the purpose of having fun, I can tell you that it's generally a good idea to have a more or less even male/female ratio at a party. It's more fun for everyone involved. A significant inbalance in either direct changes the social dynamic. Sometimes that can be a good thing but were I throwing a party in a situation like this and I was trying to making it fun, I'd try to get as good a mix as I could.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:You know, as one of the, say, 5% professional women at such a party, I wouldn't get any enjoyment at all out of the, say, 30% non-professional women. I would far prefer to be surrounded by 100% people who shared my interests. That would be the point of going to the party, for me.
See, now that's an attitude that sort of bothers me. Part of the job of the host in terms of party socialization is encouraging among people of different interests. The clumping up and exclusion of outsiders is one of the reasons why geek parties suck. Talk shop at the conference. That's what it's there for. You're supposed to go to the party to have fun.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Which is why, of course, parties should not happen at conferences, because conferences should not be fun.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Even if their aim is to "equalize" the industry, I'd be offended. I want to get a job because I'm good at it, not because they really needed some chicks.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote: Part of the job of the host in terms of party socialization is encouraging among people of different interests.
This applies only is if it is a individual's party with just a bunch of friends and acquaintances getting together. If it is somehow corporately connected at a specific kind of conference that changes the entire thing. The purpose of that kind of party is for networking, not as much "fun". Yes, everyone may have slightly different interests but all in the same larger industry.
As a female engineer, I've experienced the double negative you get. The guys are talking shop, it is difficult, but you can be accepted if you can talk shop as one of the guys and prove you know your stuff. But, if any of the guys brought a date, then the non-technical female(s) the guys have brought as companionship are often ticked off, monopolizing their men, simply because you speak the same language and enjoy discussing the same things. Even if it wouldn't be a ragingly fun party, far better to restrict it to all geeks than to try to get an even male-female ratio, in a corporate situation.
posted
So great. Be offended. It's not going to help you achieve you goals. If you whine about it, even people who might be sympathetic to your cause are going to tune you out. The best you can accomplish is, if you really push, to get rid of the parties.
That world isn't perfect. Deal.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
You can't get so upset at sexism that you start to see it where it isnt aswell. You can't start saying "they didn't hire me because I'm a woman when they don't hire you AND say they did hire me just because I'm a women" when they do. If you get evidence of something like in this case then I agree that you should get upset about it but don't start jumping at shadows.
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Zeugma, if you were one of five women at a party, isn't more likely that A) you'd be hit on a lot within the first half hour and B) the 50-80 guys who figured they don't have a chance with the 5 women would get tired of free drinks and go elsewhere ?
Honestly, I'm suprised with the "uprorar" this has caused here. It's not like these companies have hired these women to come and socialise with the geeks...and although that practise would be desperate, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that either.
Posts: 349 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Squicky, despite the double negative I expressed... if I chose to go to a party like this, I'd have fun regardless, I'd figure the non-technical chicks just have to suck it up and deal since they let themselves get talked into attending to begin with.
posted
Yes, you're going to be hired so we can meet our mandated quota of women and minorities.
We won't tell you this of course, so you will always be left to question why you were hired and guess at your qualifications.
Feh. It's an opening - take advantage and move on. It might not be perfect, but getting your foot in the door is not something to be tossed aside lightly.
posted
Banna, The business world isn't that simple. A company that does a good job of entertaining, of holding fun things, will prosper over a equally capable company that doesn't. It is good for the health of a business to throw a kicking party that people are talking about for weeks to come. That's one of the big reasons why they throw parties in the first place.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Squicky, I would say it depends entirely on the industry as to what form of a "fun" party is acceptable. In the manufacturing sector, where budgets are still tight at the moment, while moderate socialization in a hotel bar would be acceptable, a lavish party as Zeguma describes would be viewed as a horrid waste that cuts into profit margins. Making stockholders and prospective investors upset for two reasons, 1) the waste and 2) what is the company trying to cover up by having a distracting party?
posted
Yeah, but she's talking about computer graphics. Completely different situation. They make a living off of people thinking that they and the stuff they turn out is cool.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
To celebrate a perceived success, a company Porter worked for had a lavish party where they flew all the employees out to NY City. I wasn't "invited" to the party, but our child and I came along on the trip for fun. Porter went to the party alone. I don't recall them having any silly rules about bringing ladies.
And the company died few months later.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Squicky, I agree. And as I stated before, I'd likely go to the party and have fun regardless, of the gender inequities that exist. I'd go in with my eyes wide open though *knowing* I'd be objectified.
Objectification doesn't bother me too much because I figure I can use it to my advantage and I've had to deal with it my entire life, being a moderately attractive blonde female. I didn't realize how much I subconsciously used it to my advantage, until I dyed my hair, and the objectification I got from being blonde disappeared.
I also deliberately dress with a baggy grunge bent at times in order to somewhat obscure the fact that I am a moderately attractive female. Because I *do* want to be judged on my brain and not on what I look like. Doing so has helped me be accepted into the "boys club" more rapidly in several situations including my current job.
However if you find objectification in general to be ethically abhorrent and inherently degrading to women, you'd have major issues at a party like this regardless of how competent you were techinically.
quote: Squicky, I agree. And as I stated before, I'd likely go to the party and have fun regardless, of the gender inequities that exist. I'd go in with my eyes wide open though *knowing* I'd be objectified.
What does 'objectified' mean and how do you know that it would be done to you and would you be doing it to everyone else there?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
If tech geeks weren't horny, there wouldn't be internet porn. Let's face it, in the most sweeping, demeaning, but often too true, generalization, most of the heterosexual tech geeks out there are attracted to anything remotely resembling the female form cause they don't get any very often, they are two busy with their code.
Yes, I would expect them to be checking out my T&A. (I guess that's what I mean by objectifying, checking me out and sizing up my physical attractiveness and assets and detriments.) And yes, I *would* use them checking me out to my advantage, to start up a conversation if it was someone I knew had technical expertise that I was interested in knowing more about. I would also expect that I would be resented by a non technical companion to said geek because once you get a geek talking tech talk they won't stop.
AJ
Would I be doing it to everyone else? It depends. Probably not, or no more than ordinary, because my physical attractiveness standards for checking guys out is pretty high after years of lifeguarding. But every now and then there might be someone that would catch my eye.
posted
Banna, I've done exactly the same thing, dress down for parties where I want to be taken more seriously.
Of course, when I went to the state finals for one of the nerd competitions I was on in high school, I was the only girl on the 10-person team, and was completely snubbed by the guys while the teacher cracked jokes about how any woman who wears comfortable shoes is a... well, I guess I won't post it here, a crude term for a lesbian. So... damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Were the company throwing the party a reasonably sucessful one, there'd be plenty of objectification of the men by some of the women too. They'd go after the guys with the most money.
There's plenty of dishonesty and objectification on either side of male - female interaction. There's plenty in intrasex interaction too. That's just the way the world is.
Men still have more power, so the more overt inbalances tend to favor them. If this were a case where someone was being denied access to resources because of their gender, that'd be a different thing entirely. But this is just complaining that the world isn't all rainbows and sunshine. I agree, but bitching about it isn't going to achieve anything. We might as well have a gripe session about how people tend to resent people who are smarter than they are.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Yeah, Zeguma, I know. In this case, given the specific "party" circumstances you describe, I'd pretty much flaunt what nature gave me I think. If any guy is stupid enough to think I'd actually sleep with them it is their problem. But it's always a judgement call as to which route you go.
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