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Nothing is more democratic and pro-American than keeping your mouth shut and your opinions to yourself, right? Posts: 327 | Registered: Oct 2003
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To reverse the traditional Democratic proverb, Mormo--I may defend to the death their right to say the things they are saying, but that does not mean I have to like them.
Posts: 1114 | Registered: Mar 2004
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The comment I made about Bush claiming this as his was due to his history of claiming other foreign peace victories as his.
He claimed that it was him who brought Khadafi to surrender the atomic weapons program, but doesn't mention the years of British diplomacy that worked to bring it about.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Yes, clearly opposing totalitarian measures with no direct democratic oversight is anti-american and anti-democracy. I can think of no way people would ever interpret that as a pro-democracy, pro-american sentiment.
*rolls eyes*
The exact practice I have a problem with is removing the direct democratic oversight from decisions about shipping terrorist suspects to places they might be tortured. I am willing to condone it where there is a review by the executive branch, and where every effort is taken that they will not get tortured, but I'm not willing to give the CIA a free rein.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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How in the heck is being anti-torture being anti-american or anti-democratic?
I don't really know why I'm asking. However, I would appreciate it if, being one of the avowed pro-torture people on the board you would respond to my additional scenarios for torture, Occasional.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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On that matter, I think you are quite right, Fugu....I am not talking about that in particular. I will readily agree that a lot of things about the Iraq war and national security have been utterly mismanaged.
What I was agreeing with, however, was that Democrats have a tendency to object in ways that make them sound anti-America or anti-democracy--even when they are right. It's the phrasing, not necessarily the opinion.
Posts: 1114 | Registered: Mar 2004
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This was the whole point of my last post. (And I disagree with you. EDIT TO ADD: insofar as I don't believe the democrats are saying things that sound like this so much as I think they are being inaccurately portrayed as saying such things.) I think some conservatives are saying "Look how well things are going!" (whether they are or not), and then letting the implication be made that liberals do not want things to be going well. This is a strawman. I'm not anti-American or anti-soldier or anti-democracy. I hope things go well in Iraq now that we are there. And I resent being lied to, and the immorality we have engaged in, even if the ends should turn out to be good (again, something that has not been guaranteed).
Frankly, I would say that those who have brought us to this point are anti-democracy (lies, secrecy, lack of oversight, curtailing of freedom) and thus anti-American. And it is precisely my heritage of coming to America fleeing oppression and tyrany which make me resent the heck out of the turn we have taken. So it's particularly galling to have it suggested that those who oppose this administration oppose America. Frankly, I think I value America more than most full-blooded Americans do. I certainly believe I value the ideals of America more than our administration does.
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Just a question out of curiosity, is there anything POSITIVE you can say about the United States and its government?
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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There's a lot of positive things you can say about the government, but this does not negate the wrong things that are going on. No system is perfect. Only blind robots praise a system all the time without critically thinking. We need a society of true patriots who question their government when they feel it's doing wrong, who actively participate in politics to keep it clean and honourable. Like I have said before, It's not enough to say America is a free and wonderful country. Actions speak louder than words. The country must be held accountable so it can live up to its principals. You cannot run around trying to promote democracy in other nations without upholding it in your own backyard. This is not how things work.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I can say something positive about America's government: Bush will be out of office in 4 years.
Posts: 1357 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Yep, I'm positive that Dubya&Gang love killing UStroops to keep their followers amused and distracted from the neo"conservative" looting of America.
quote: is there anything POSITIVE you can say about the United States and its government?
I guess it reflects on my personality and issues, but I am often critical of the federal government, especially since Bush won in 2000.
I love America, and I criticize it because I think we can be better, and we should be a catalyst for freedom worldwide, just as Bush promised in his last inaugural address. But how can we preach freedom and democracy to others when our own constitutional freedoms are being taken away from us in the name of security and the war on terror?
Uhh, I guess I get preachy, and the answer to your question is "only with difficulty, qualifications and rhetoric included."
Posts: 327 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Sure, and I say them, particularly about the United States.
It is because I value the US so much that I condemn what I consider to be practices undermining the principles we allegedly hold dear. Such as torture, and imprisonment without charges or trial, and other things. Some of these things may even be technically legal for the Bush administration to do, but that does not make them right to do, and the Bush administration's efforts to push every violation (or near violation, depending on who you talk to) of human rights to its utmost legal extension revolts me.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Why are people treating being accused of hating America seriously?
For what it's worth, I think that this situation is more complex than is being considered and that declaring victory now is as hollow as the "Mission Accomplished!" thing. Iraq and Afghanistan are years away from becoming stable, working democracies, even if they don't, like so many other countries, fail on the way. Nor are our interests necessarily best served and our problems done away with by democracy in countries (e.g. a democratic Saudi Arabia would make our position much less stable, which is why it's always absent from the President's list of countries that need to listen to their people). It's not some magic panacea that's going to make everything better.
The dice are still very much in the air and we face this situation with an administration that has shown little compunction about deceiving and even outright lying to the American public and often seems to do a poor job of anticipating and planning for things that could go wrong.
I'm still ambivilent about aggressively pursuing the spread of self-determination. I really hope it works out for us, but I'm convinced that this isn't going to happen if we cease holding the President accountable, as he and some other people seem to be suggesting we do.
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With friends like these, who needs enemies? I honestly believe that Democrats are placing themselves in a permanent minority status. They are never positive or hopeful in a very positive and hopeful thinking country. True, there are enough who think the same to not count the Democrats out. But, there is a vast Middle America who don't believe that things are as wrong as some here are saying.
To be fair, I can see your point about loving America enough to point out its faults. There are plenty of things I find fault with (although from my perspective it is things liberals would defend). The trouble is that the way liberals are doing it sounds possibly traitorous. For example, the best that could be done in answer to the question is say "but, I do love America," with incredable lack of details. However, it is not without extensive details of what is not liked.
In the end, however, you might have to come to the conclusion that "Your America" probably doesn't exist anymore other than the East and West Coast in major cities. My ideal doesn't either, but it feels closer to it than it has in several decades.
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Occassional, I've heard some of the right wing political pundits say some of the stuff you're saying -- about how liberals are HOPING that things go wrong (with the economy, Iraq, etc.) and how they are traitors because they criticize the Administration during a war. I know that one of them (Rush) went gave a speech to that effect to some troops.
All I have to say on it is that the attempts to demonize me will not make me go away or be silent when I see things that I think are wrong. If you'd care to actually go through the issues and talk about perspectives on them, I think we could have an interesting dialog. But it'd first have to start by you ceasing the name calling BS and demonstrate at least a willingness to listen to the reasons why I don't like some of the things that you may think are real successes. I do believe that there's much to discuss or ponder and that many of the disagreements are at the level of philosophies and ideals -- a realm where results (good or bad) are somewhat less critical to the discussion. The upshot being that I'm not going to be happy with some of the things our Administration is doing even if with 100 years of hindsight I was forced to admit that they worked out just fine.
I can understand how that might be tough to swallow when you feel like you can point to a string of successful projects, and how you and others might assume that I'm just being a partisan liberal sniping at your guy 'cuz he's not my guy. But if you'd care to explore the reasons more deeply, I think you might find that I (and others like me) have legitimate concerns that have nothing to do with which party is in power, but rather how the power is being used. And how it reflects on America in general or me, as a citizen of this country.
quote:The trouble is that the way liberals are doing it sounds possibly traitorous.
For example, the best that could be done in answer to the question is say "but, I do love America," with incredable lack of details. However, it is not without extensive details of what is not liked.
Send me the loyalty oath form now. I see the error of my ways.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I think I was pretty specific in saying what I value about America and why my family came here. Freedom from tyrany and a say in what my government does. A government that does not lie to me. The bill of rights and due process under the law. A sense of being the "good guys" on the international scene. My anger is precisely because some of the things I love about America are being threatened.
If you can't see anything positive about America in my posts other than a vague "I still love America," then you aren't really paying any attention to me, and aren't worth trying to convince. (It stunned me that you could even ask the question after my two posts on the topic.)
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mr. Squicky--you are correct, but I find that I rise to the bait anyway because the charge is so personally offensive. It's all I can do not to stoop to their level.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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For what it's worth, I can say lots of positive things about this country and its government. I can say far, far fewer positive things about the current administration.
I take solace in the fact that even if "my America" only exists in large cities and along the coasts, that accounts for more than half of the population of the country, and more than two thirds of its total production. The remainder simply isn't worth all that much. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Icarus, From my perspective, it's just silly to get angry/offended by things like that. It's a choice to get angry and I don't see why you would give someone (especailly someone like Occ or aspectre) that kind of power over you.
It's like I've said before to you specifically. You've established yourself here. People know you. Heck, what you wrote in this thread makes Occ's accusation look stupid. People whose opinions matter didn't read it and think "Wow, Icarus must hate America." They thought "Occ sure is using some nutty, irresponsible tactics. He's way off base." You don't even need to say anything directly about the accusation. You've already won.
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I, personally, lose some respect for people who take things that don't deserve respect seriously. To me, it's shows a small lack in discernment and self-control. It looks sort of like you're arguing with a 12-year old and putting them on an equal level. But then again, I've been told I approach arguments more like a robot than a human being, so there you go.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Dag, I disagree, but, on second thought, maybe this isn't the most appropriate place for me to explain why.
Ic, which one were you disagreeing with? I'm envisioning something like "that's what the 30-40% who voted for Bush in those states are for" in response to the food concern. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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It's hard to say what will happen to the Democratic party, but I am willing to bet it'll depend a lot on what they do in the next three years leading up to the 2008 election.
I find it hard to believe they will disappear or even fall much below where they are now. Bush doesn't have the commanding lead that the conservatives would like to believe. FDR won his second term with over 400 electoral votes, he virtually crushed his opponents into the ground. Likewise towards the end of his second term, the Republican party barely existed. They had like 10 seats in the house and maybe one in the senate. Roosevelt's blunders brought them back into power, but the fact that the Republicans are back on top today shows that anything can happen really.
And the gap between Republicans and Democrats today really is razor thin, which means anything could happen. If the Democrats smarten up and clarify their message, they will make some major gains, especially of the Republicans keep at their hate mongering against the Democrats, and MOST especially if the President drives our financial state into the ground like he is.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Uhh, I guess I get preachy, and the answer to your question is "only with difficulty, qualifications and rhetoric included."
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I honestly believe that Democrats are placing themselves in a permanent minority status. They are never positive or hopeful in a very positive and hopeful thinking country. True, there are enough who think the same to not count the Democrats out. But, there is a vast Middle America who don't believe that things are as wrong as some here are saying. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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