posted
Hey all! A friend of mine related a story to me, and I thought I would run it by the good people here to see what you all thought.
He was recently shopping at a grocery store in a poor neighborhood where a middle-aged woman in front of him was buying groceries with food stamps. After he paid for his own groceries and loaded his car, the woman approached him and asked if he would do a favor for her. She asked him to return the groceries she had just bought with the food stamps and with the cash they gave him she wanted him to buy three packs of cigarettes for her. She told him he could keep the change, which would amount to around $10. He returned the groceries, bought the cigarettes, and told her to keep the $10 herself.
His reasoning was that she would have found somebody to do it for her anyway, and it was unlikely the person she found would have given the $10, which she clearly needed, back to her.
I couldn't argue with that reasoning, it was clearly true, and yet the whole thing seemed so wrong to me. Was he wrongly contributing to her self-destructive activity or was he rightly being compassionate where few others, at least in that neighborhood, would have been?
Posts: 4 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I think it was wrong. Purchasing something just to return it is dishonest; using government food stamps which are not allowed to be used for cigarettes to buy them is dishonest. By making the trade, he was helping her in her dishonesty.
posted
Well, a somewhat more ethical thing to have done was to tell the woman to keep her groceries and buy her a pack or two (or three) of cigarettes.
I don't buy the "well someone else would have done it" excuse. You can't excuse an immoral act by saying "if I didn't do it, someone else would anyway". The whole point of being a moral person is that regardless of the evil done in the world you aren't the person doing it. Sure there is bribery and fraud in the world, and now your friend can say he is a part of it.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
OK, so maybe buying her the cigarettes wouldn't fall under "ethical", but I guess my point was that if you wanted to appease this woman in some way, that would be a better way than helping her steal.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
OK, what is the going price of a case of cigs these days? They are up to five dollars a pack, so it must be at least 30 bucks, right?
I could take the "ethical" thing even further than Tom, and after lecturing her, turn her in. Of course, I would tell her it was for her own good first.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I don't think this was even close. There's a reason why we give people food stamps instead of money.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I see nothing wrong with it. To the extent that my taxes paid for her food stamps, I could care less whether they are spent on food or drugs. I am out the same amount of cash either way.
Although I would have kept the $10.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: I see nothing wrong with it. To the extent that my taxes paid for her food stamps, I could care less whether they are spent on food or drugs. I am out the same amount of cash either way.
This, Danzig, is why I'm always left wondering whether you're actually a sociopath or simply desperately attempting to emulate one. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I would definitely have turned her in. And given her a list of resources where she could get help to quit smoking.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Cool. Something else Tom and I agree on. What are we up to now Tom?
One big flaw in the argument is that someone else would have done that for her. I doubt she has much luck finding people to help her do that. People are generally to busy and mistrusting to try something like that.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
So is the problem with this the fact that she was wanting the cash to buy cigarettes. I mean - is it the cigarettes you disagree with, or the fact that she wanted cash for someother other than food, using food stamps?
What if she had said - take this back in and get cash for it in order for me to have $3 for gas to put in my car to get to my part-time job? Or a quart of oil to get my car home without blowing up?
quote:I don't buy the "well someone else would have done it" excuse. You can't excuse an immoral act by saying "if I didn't do it, someone else would anyway".
I was once asked on a personality test something to the extend of: "If you approached a vending machine in order to buy something, and noticed there was 75 cents already in the machine, would you get a free item or would you get your item and then put 75 cents back in the machine." I may have gotten the details wrong, but the jist was the same.
I had to truthfully respond that I would keep the item. My reasoning? That someone would just take an item for free instead of me if I didn't. The money never would have gotten back to its original owner no matter what I did.
Is this reasoning immoral? I suppose the key here was that last part. Still, I think the question is a lame one. I hope its just to test whether the test taker is a big fat lier .
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Actually Farm, I wouldn't have believed her either way and been about my business.
Technically, and Dag may have to supply the specifics, she is defrauding the US government and while it may be a minor offense, I'm not particularly inclined to help her support a cigarette habit by committing what may be a minor offense myself.
Of course, I'm a little jaded about the various hooks a con will use to gain sympathy, attention and ultimately money. I've lost count of the number of times people have approached me, asking for bus fare or money to put some gas in their car while reeking of alcohol.
Had the exchange gone the other way and she was trying to barter cigarettes for food, I might be more inclined to get involved.
It has been my experience that people too ready to ask for help are the ones that usually need a different sort from what they're asking for.
posted
You used to be able to buy food stamps for 25 cents on the dollar in east St. Louis back before the Link card, made the grocery money stretch let me tell you....
posted
Using your line of reasoning, TomDavidson, and this thread, the ethical thing to do would have been to: Confiscate her groceries. Give her a lecture about the evils of eating. Point out that she should thank you for stealing her groceries so she would learn how she could have hurt the government.
posted
By buying cigarettes with foodstamps she was stealing from the tax payers. That was not an ethical thing to do.
Of course, I think foodstamps are already stealing from the tax payers but by buying non-food with them it's insult to injury.
It kinda reminds me of the first time I ever saw anyone use foodstamps... Their groceries were in two piles. They used other people's money (foodstamps) to buy groceries and then used their own money to buy dog food, booze and cigarettes.
Now if they can afford dog food, booze and cigarettes, why they frak am I (and the rest of the taxpayers) buying them food???
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I'm with Trevor, I wouldn't have believed a story about needing gas for the car and even if I had good reason to believe it I sitll wouldn't have been involved in an illegal scam to get gas or anything else.
Food stamps are meant for food and cashing them in to buy cigarettes is fraud and I wouldn't be a part of it. To me, it's not really much of a question.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Gadzooks, aspectre, do you care to cite some specific examples or...uh, I think you should cite some specific examples.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:So is the problem with this the fact that she was wanting the cash to buy cigarettes. I mean - is it the cigarettes you disagree with, or the fact that she wanted cash for someother other than food, using food stamps?
What if she had said - take this back in and get cash for it in order for me to have $3 for gas to put in my car to get to my part-time job? Or a quart of oil to get my car home without blowing up?
Would that be a different scenario?
The problem is the diversion of funds. I might give her money for gas (I would never give her money for cigarettes, unless she lied and I believed it). But I wouldn't help her commit fraud, even if it's not legally fraud.
posted
Truly, aspectre, you have a dizzyingly deep understanding of the neo-conservative mindset.
Seriously man, what does posting a swipe like that do for you? Hell, I'm basically on the same side of the political fence as you are, but I cringe when I see you posting crap like that.
posted
actually aspectre I'm really unhappy with W's apparent desire to make government as big as possible. It seems all we have now is the party of HUGE goverment and the party of EVEN HUGER government. I would be voting Libertarian if I thought it would ever matter a hill of beans.
I have no desire to kick the downtrodden to make myself top dog. perhaps you'd like to rephrase your personal attack to sound less bitter and angry?
I DO think, however, that helping the downtrodden should be a personal choice one makes through charity and not a choice made for you by other people who have the votes to take your property without just compensation.
Pro-Choice isn't just an abortion buzzword to me.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
What exactly is sociopathic about realizing that the same amount of money is stolen no matter what is purchased? If anything, using the money for cigarettes at least wakes people up to the fact that welfare sucks. Maybe my working definition of "sociopath" is incorrect, but getting back a measly $10 of money that has been stolen from me does not seem enough to qualify. If a bum comes up to me on the street and asks for some money, he is likely to get a dollar or two if I have it - and I respect his dignity enough to let him spend it on whatever he had decided he needs the most, rather than offering to buy him an unhealthy fast food meal. I guess the Robin Hoods feel guilty when their stolen money is used for some small amount of fun instead of merely prolonging a completely dreary existence.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Charity is an involuntary tax on people who have a conscience, who want to be Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Hindi/Buddhist/humanitarian/etc imposed by those who have no conscience, but nonetheless go to the Temple / awards ceremonies to praise themselves for being "better than all those other people".
Governmental social welfare programs merely spreads that tax so it is shared a bit more fairly amongst all members of society.
posted
So aspectre, how is Government enforced charity any different? You still have one set of people forcing another set to give.
But now it's worse. Now you have the LAW enforcing that which some people's morality was enforcing before. Thus, legislating morality.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Pixiest, until you have a solution for the lack of jobs that pay enough to support a family, I think you'd better lay off those who may need foodstamps. If you needed them, you'd be glad they were there. Just because you've seen a couple of people doing things you don't approve of, doesn't mean the system is rotten all the way through.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I would have refused to do it, but not turned the woman in. Morally I know I should turn her in, but I would never to that because I'm simply not that kind of person.
And The Pixiest, countries that have taxation and division of resources more than others are functioning extremely well, and their citizens seem very happy and their quality of life is generally fairly high. How, if this the case, is what this countries do a bad thing?
posted
"What exactly is sociopathic about realizing that the same amount of money is stolen no matter what is purchased?"
What is sociopathic is the transformation of this issue into "how does this specifically impact my life, and what's in it for me either way?"
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Pixiest, have you ever known anyone that needed food stamps? I know that my family qualified for them during the first 5 years my dad was in the Army, but my parents pride wouldn't allow them to take them, and we survived by pooling food with other low-income military families. Unfortunately, not everyone is in a situation where they can avoid food-stamps, and no one should feel like they're stealing from joe-shmoe-tax-payer just because they want to feed their children.
Getting back on topic; Of course it was wrong to get cigarettes for this woman. By violating the system, she violated our trust in the system, and indirectly hurt those who need food stamps the most. Every time someone is caught cheating the system, it paints all welfare recipients with the same brush.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
There are many people who need food stamps and use them correctly. They often get a feeling of shame along with their purchase.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I don't know what I would have done. Well, I can guess that I probably would have refused to buy her cigarettes, briefly explaining why and mentioning she should probably quit, but then also given her some money to spend herself if she needed them that badly. I don't think there's any course of action I could take in that situation and still come out being glad that's what I'd done though. I can, however, appreciate that addictions often happen as a result of facing difficult situations outside one's control, and that they can seem like the only way of coping for many people in these situations. (This doesn't mean I support the encouragement of them, which is what would make this situation so difficult for me when I know there's no long-term difference I can make either way).
As for the 75 cent vending machine problem, that's easier. I'd leave 75 cents there. I don't need the money and there's a chance someone who does will find it if I leave it, even if that's unlikely. The other option for me would be to take it and donate it to a charity. I've done that several times.
Poverty is not deserved by anyone. As several people have mentioned, foodstamps and welfare are fabulous programmes for those who need it, even if it's taken advantage of by others. Personally, I'm far too... empathetic? unbelieving in free will? something like that ... to blame anyone for their situation in life, even when I know that blame might be appropriate and useful.
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Tom, not that I am disagreeing completely with you on that, but there ae degrees of selfishness just like there are for other things. Some level of selflishness is necessary or youo wouldn't ever accomplish anything at all, but too much of it and you are a waste of skin.
As far as this line of logic goes, for this particular case, of course it is wrong. The only person here who I have seen disagree with that is Danziz, who isn't a paragon of virtue...
Hell, he thinks that he is above the laws, getting to pick and choose which ones he listens to as he sees fit.
That is one of the main characteristics of a sociopath.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Of course, in this case it is not perfect selfishness. I know you are a wonderful person who never touches psychoactives, but I do. I have always been on the fringes of the tobacco users, but I admire their sense of community. To an extent they are still connected to the users of other substances. You might look down upon smokers, but being in somewhat related situations myself I tend to have compassion when I can... but not so much compassion I will turn down an opportunity to pay for my own kicks at the same time, should it arise.
There is nothing wrong with accepting an offered reward, but turning down a person in need is bad karma.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Above the law? From the views of the prohibitionists and the straight-edgers, I would say more below the law than above it. Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Not so. I am assuming your problem with this situation is that the money came from food stamps. Well, believe it or not, I sincerely believe those to be wrong. You cannot expect me to care about the arbitrary restrictions on an already immoral theft. Just getting back some of what you stole from me.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I dunno.. I was unemployed for 3 years so the whole "what about people who need it" line rings hollow.
I survived because I planned ahead. I knew stuff like that could happen and while I was working I stuffed all the money I could into savings while my co-workers mocked me for it. "You can't take it with you" and other inanities dribbled out of their mouths as they bragged about their new cars and big screen TVs.
That isn't to say NO one needs help, but I think the number of people who actually need it are much smaller than the number who receive it. Further, I think a lot fewer people would need it if we weren't so overtaxed. I know while I was unemployed I was wishing I could have the money back that was confiscated from my paycheck over the years.
By the way, I'm not heartless. Some of you may remember I just tried to donate a perfectly good car to charity and was rejected. I'm going to try to give it to the salavation army next. But the thing is, I'm doing it by CHOICE. Not because I'm being forced to do it.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I don't think I would have bought the cigs for her, but I wouldn't have turned her in either. I know there are people, like The Pixiest mentioned, who take advantage of the program, and that's sad. I was on food stamps for about 2 months when I got divorced (until I got a better job) and it's tough. It can be humiliating, and the food stamp program doesn't pay for things it needs to pay for - like toilet paper, soap, and feminine supplies. I remember not knowing how I was going to buy tampons.
posted
I remember the first time someone came into the food pantry at our church and saw that we had toilet paper and started to cry. Happy tears over TP. Ever since then I've made a point of being sure we are well stocked with paper products, soap and detergent, tampons & pads, and diapers. All things that can't be bought with foodstamps, but are pretty much necessities.
(Yes, I know people could use junk mail for TP and old rags for maxipads, but I consider them necessities.)
posted
Wow, unethical AND illegal! :-) I agree...buying cigs with state money is a no-no. I think states using cards are going to eliminate this more, especially if the receipt shows that a card was used and money could be credited directly back to it. That said, Ohio has cards but for some people they just cut a check so there is no accountability. Not sure why they do one for some people and not the other.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I'm surprised that the grocery store allowed the return of the groceries and refunded back in cash.
As an accountant in my previous life, every company I ever worked for had the policy of refunds by the same method the original payment was in. Period. It's the best way to prevent fraud like that.
Any company that allows refunds like that has poor controls in place, and likely has other types of fraud or theft happening.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Danzig, I am well aware of your views on WHY you don't like it, that is th point. You don't feel the government has a right to tax us, and wiggle out of it as often as you can....while still allowing yourself to reap the benefits of living in this society. You drive on the roads, went to school, and live in a fairly safe place. I am sure if you were being mugged you would want the police to help you, and if your house/car was on fire you would expect the firemen to come.
You just don't want to pay for it like the rest of us do.
It isn't that I don't understand, it's that I hold your world view in contempt. Not you personally, but the views you have expressed on any number of issues. I don't have any tolerance left for hypocrites like you, and find it repugnant that you can get away with leeching off society as you have bragged you do.
So I don't find myself surprised at your opinions about this, not at all....and I wouldn't feel much sympathy is you got arrested because of helping someone defraud the public like that.
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