quote: No, I consider people who demand charity, whether they actually need it or not, who can't admit to themselves or anyone else that their poverty is a result of their own actions, less deserving.
Aye, I agree with that. My family was on foodstamps and unemployment for I think four months when my mom (single mother raising two boys) lost her job. This was five years ago. She couldn't get another job for awhile, and in the meantime the whole family (and friends helped) did a 5000 house paper route every week to help pay the bills. This of course with my mother who has bone chips in her neck from a car accident, and carpal tunnel/arthritis from a work related accident years ago. She ended up getting a dream job, but that four months was a nightmare on her.
Thus, I have little sympathy for those who create situations that are bad for themselves, and do little to correct them. There are always options out, especially when you have a family to support. You make it work.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Thank you, Lyr. That was actually my point. Many people choose to be poor and stay poor. Some people choose not to be poor and move themselves up to middle class. Many people, like Goody's trust fund kids, choose to be poor and just haven't gotten there yet.
USA Today just did a big story on Americans needing to go on a financial diet. Yahoo puts the national credit card debt at 60 billion dollars. The average American has over $8000 in credit card debt. My pastor just did a sermon on giving oursleves financial leeway. He said Americans are living on 115 to 125% of their income. Couldn't find a link for it, though.
If people don't change their spending habits, there's going to be a lot of middle class people who suddenly find themselves poor. And with changes to bankrupcy laws, they're still going to have to pay back all the money they already spent.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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"Many people choose to be poor and stay poor. Some people choose not to be poor and move themselves up to middle class. Many people, like Goody's trust fund kids, choose to be poor and just haven't gotten there yet."
Two questions:
1) How many people do not choose to be poor and yet remain poor? 2) Can someone choose to be poor in return for some other lifestyle and yet deserve charity?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Nice set-up, Tom. Do you seriously think anyone will walk into the trap, though?
Lyrhawn, what if your mother hadn't gotten a "dream job" after only 4 months? What if it had taken 2 years? And even then, it had been a relatively sucky job that was barely good enough? And what if in those 2 years, she and her children and friends hadn't been able to keep up with the 5000 paper paper route?
I just think, that even though there was a lot of bad luck in your family, it was short-lived and a lot of good luck followed it.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I'm still confused as to what people are arguing about here. It is absolutely indisputible that there are many people who are poor because of poor choices, and who remain poor because of more poor choices.
It is also absolutely indisputible that there are many people who are poor because of forces over which they have no control, and who remain poor because of such forces.
It is also absolutely indisuputible that there are many people who are poor through some combination of poor choices and forces over which they have no control.
posted
I don't know Kayla. I'd attribute some of what happened to good luck, but in the end it was hard work. My mom was out every day of the week going to interviews, handing out her resume. Had it lasted longer than the four months, I don't know what would have happened, I'm thankful I don't have to worry about that. But it's not like she sat around and waited for a job to hit her, like I know many (though of course not all) poorer families do. She made something happen.
Bottom line is, I think there is a job out there for anyone, even if it isn't the best job, and if it doesn't give you everything you want, anyone can make something happen. I don't really believe in the American Dream in the sense that we can all become wealthy, but I think no matter what your situation, if you work hard, you can at least survive, and give your children a chance to make their lives better for themselves.
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Has the American Dream transmuted from one of individual progress to one of personal independence?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I think it's become something of forlorn hope and cynical disbelief.
We all like the notion, but anyone who comes from the bottom of the well doesn't have the almighty chance at prosperity that the dream promises.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:I'm still confused as to what people are arguing about here. It is absolutely indisputible that there are many people who are poor because of poor choices, and who remain poor because of more poor choices.
It is also absolutely indisputible that there are many people who are poor because of forces over which they have no control, and who remain poor because of such forces.
It is also absolutely indisuputible that there are many people who are poor through some combination of poor choices and forces over which they have no control.
All of this is true, and I submit that we are paying people for the wrong things. In addition, there is a sense that awareness of the right or choice that is neither an issue of control or poor judgment, and finally, I was offered a nice cush job because one of my friends was highering for a nice cushy job, and it makes me wonder if there aren't a significant number of people who are living well because of who they know.
quote:In addition, there is a sense that awareness of the right or choice that is neither an issue of control or poor judgment
I read this 10 times and can't figure out what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify, please?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:In addition, there is a sense that awareness of the right or choice that is neither an issue of control or poor judgment
It's not you, it's me.
Being aware of the presence of the right choice is neither an issue of control nor judgment. We live in an intricate society with many institutions and entrenched rules for success in any given institution. I think some people never take advantage of their situation, even though they have control and judgment. These people don't make the prosperous choice because they don't know the rules.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Good point. I would have grouped that situation either in poor choices or forces beyond their control, depending on how willfull the ignorance of the rules is. There would be a lot of shades of gray in there, of course.
But you're absolutely right that the lack of education in such matters is cronic in this country, and crosses class lines. I have a spreadsheet I make when someone asks me for financial advice that demonstrates how critical the time value of money is to financial security. People are always astounded by how the numbers work out over time.
And, of course, there are many rules that can't be demonstrated easily in a spreadsheet: ettiquette, how to write a cover letter, why it's important to give two weeks notice, why gaps on your resume need to be explained, why and how to buy a house instead of renting, and a million other little things.
quote: I'd attribute some of what happened to good luck, but in the end it was hard work. My mom was out every day of the week going to interviews, handing out her resume.
Nah. Not buying it. I've known people who work their asses off trying to find jobs and can't. I bet there are lots of them here at Hatrack. The Pixiest, to name one, I believe. It's not a matter of how hard you look for a job. You need to be good at what you do, there needs to be a demand for what you do, and you need some luck.
I just hate the sweeping generalizations being made about the poor recently. The lazy no-good slobs who couldn't find a job if one were thrown at them and just mooch off the hard-working tax payers who don't want to have to support their cigarette smoking, beer drinking, TV watching butts.Which is the stereotype vibe I'm feeling here.
Which is why I thought Tom Davidson was setting up someone with question "2) Can someone choose to be poor in return for some other lifestyle and yet deserve charity?" Because, if I recall, there is at least one, but I think more than one, poster at Hatrack who seems to have chosen poverty in order to have kids and is on public welfare/medicaid/food stamps/or something.
So, is it okay to have half a dozen kids and be on welfare? It doesn't seem like those who are for abolishing welfare think so, because black women having babies to stay on welfare seems to be their big hang-up, but when you change that image to a white a Mormon couple having 6 kids and being on welfare, it suddenly doesn't seem nearly as offensive. I mean, the husband is working, he just can't support 7 other people.
What I haven't figured out is why it's okay for white Christian families to be on welfare/whatever, but not for single black women. Is it a morality thing? Not being married? Is it a religion thing? Not your religion?
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Kayla, there are way too many unwarranted assumptions and spiteful sideswipes in there for your post to be taken seriously. Take out the personal allusions.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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You were still being rude. Why do you want to do that? Do you think your own glass house can take the return, or do you count on other people not being as rude as you are being?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I can only speak from the experiences of my family. Both my parents have lost their jobs before, and both got jobs later, in my mom's case she had a strong resumee from working all her life, in my dad's case in a totally different field.
I can't speak for what it's like to be poor or without a job in anywhere except where I live. But there are jobs around here, I don't understand why people who need jobs won't work them. Sure, not all of them have the qualifications to take them, but there are plenty of jobs that don't need more prior experience that can be worked.
I think this argument is all rather moot though. The poor, working or not, aren't all the same. Some are lazy, some are trying and aren't getting a break, it's not all one or the other. And in the end, I doubt any more than a very small handful of us really have enough information to speak on this topic in a truly informed manner.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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kat, why are you doing this? I wasn't talking to you. I find most of your posts rude. I try and avoid threads you are on. You and I don't get along. We don't agree on, practically anything. So why are you doing this?
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Because you are singling out people on this forum based on intimate details that they've shared and using it as weapons. Knock it off - you'll hurt somebody.
Because I don't want to see those people get hurt.
And because I'd like Hatrack to be a place where someone can show weakness without having that thrown in their face later.
posted
Who are you talking about? The Pixiest? I think she's rather proud of that story. She managed to go a couple of years without a job because she socked so much of her money into her savings, if I recall correctly. It hurt her, but she wasn't homeless, and as I recall, she was rather proud of herself. If she's not, I'll delete it.
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