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Author Topic: Can popes resign?
Elizabeth
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I was reading about the ill health of Pope Benedict, and that he has himself predicted a short reign.

If he became very ill, could he step down? Is that possible?

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Bill Door
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Yes. There was talk of Pope John Paul II resigning, but he decided to wait until he died.
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Elizabeth
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OK, what if JP2 had been in a vegetative state like Terri Schiavo, unable to make any decisions. Still in?(I am honestly curious, not trying to bait anyone here)
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SteveRogers
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I'm not Catholic, so I really don't know. But, I think they might just leave him.
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Tater
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Today someone told me that this new pope is a "transitional pope." They just want to keep him for a little while, while they think about another candidate. She told me this one was chosen because he's so old, he probably wouldn't do anything drastic.
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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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i thought he was too old for the jorb too.
I guess they just wanted some old guy's last wish fulfilled or something. Honestly, I seriously doubt an Ex-Nazi is someone worthy of being pope.

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dawnmaria
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How long can someone be judged on what they did as a youth? I don't personally know the guy so I can't tell if he's being honest or not. He says he was in against his will. Can anyone here honestly say they might not have done the same thing if they or their family was at risk? And who hasn't done something when they were young that they regret the rest of their lives? I thank God most people I know judge me by my life now and not what I did as a teenager.
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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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yeah, its just that whether you did it in your youth or not, you did it.
Its like asking a person who's doing life in prison for a crime they commited when they were young. Do you really think that just because so-and-so much time has passed, they deserve to be set free? No! They must still pay their penalty! Its not that I'm some unforgiving b****, its that being pope is something that is very important and people with these kinds of records shouldn;t be allowed to be pope.

EDIT: Spelling error

[ April 20, 2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Altáriël of Dorthonion ]

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Jim-Me
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yeah... you know it's a good thing we rounded up all those damned Nazis*(tm) and locked them behind the Berlin wall for 50 years right after WWII... honestly, how could anyone who was ever terrorized by a police state be expected to do anything useful ever again? For that matter, I'm glad we never let those brutal, imperialist Japanese off their island again, either...

This is truly comical... you people are startng to remind me of the Family Guy episode where they tour Germany and the guide keeps saying that there were never any Nazis in Germany.

* - Historical Note: The word "Nazi" was actually trademarked by TSR for their Indiana Jones game.

[ April 20, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]

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Altáriël of Dorthonion
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[Big Grin] yeah, we should've done all those...
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Tater
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quote:
Honestly, I seriously doubt an Ex-Nazi is someone worthy of being pope.
Wasn't everyone forced to join the Hitler Youth? And didn't he later desert?
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Jim-Me
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yes and yes, which is why I'm being rather sarcastic in these responses.
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Annie
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I already posted this on one of the other two Pope threads, but thought it needed some publicity in here:

From Le Monde, April 19:
quote:
Le grand rabbin de Tel Aviv, Israël Meir Lau, survivant de l'Holocauste nazi, a dit avoir rencontré Ratzinger l'an dernier lors d'un symposium sur l'antisémitisme à New York, où le cardinal avait fermement condamné les manifestations antisémites.

"Il est connu comme un ami du peuple juif. J'espère, je prie et lui souhaite de suivre l'exemple de Jean Paul II (...) dans sa bonne attitude et son amitié envers les juifs du monde et l'Etat d'Israël en particulier", a déclaré Lau à Reuters.

Trans:
The Great Rabbi of Tel Aviv, Israel Meir Lau, a survivor of the Nazi Holocaust, spoke of having met Ratzinger last year during an antisemitism symposium in New York, where the cardinal had firmly condemned antisemitic protests.

"He is known as a friend to the Jewish people. I hope, I pray, and I wish him to follow the example of John Paul II ... in his good attitude and his friendship towards the Jews of the world and the State of Israel in particular," Lau said to Reuters.

There's your Nazi, folks.

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Theca
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I know several Catholic Germans who were part of the Hitler Youth in their high school years. One lady, named Elizabeth, was telling my mother stories this week about those years and she didn't feel that she had a choice, and she doubted the pope did either. She and her husband escaped Germany at some point... I need to ask my mother what happened. I thought one of them was in a concentration camp, briefly.

I keep thinking. If I had joined a club in high school, because everyone else did, and we did normal little high school-club type things there, and then only later I discovered what evil things that club actually stood for, would I be branded my whole life as evil or unreliable?

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Ele
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Yes, they can...and have apparently. One of this pope's namessakes did, Benedict IX. It's called abdication, though, I think.

Pope JPII was too strong a man to have stepped down from a position to which I'm sure he believed he was charged by his Lord, sick body or no sick body. His intellect was never compromised. Instead, he used his physical condition to demonstrate to the whole world what it means to endure in the name of Christ. He went on until his Lord lifted the cross from his shoulders. I didn't agree with him on a lot of things, but I have to admire the strength of his faith and resolve and the powerful testimony of his decision to pass from this life with dignity and grace and without retreat.

It isn't really "just a job" to anyone who believes that those who voted were led by the Holy Spirit. (Why on earth else would anyone even consider touching that job with a ten foot pole!? I can't imagine!)

But people who say no to God get swallowed by very large fishes. [Wink]

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Elizabeth
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OK, but does anyone know what happens of a pop becomes mentally incompetent? (I think JP2 was still coherent, just very ill)
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Stan the man
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It becomes a Pepsi? [Razz]

No, I looked it up and all I could find are these

Southern Cross

The Tablet (I don't like the word 'should' in this.

and this:

quote:
Can a Pope Resign?
Q: My husband and I disagree on whether a pope can resign. Does Church law address that issue? Has there ever been a pope who resigned? Also, is there any reason why the pope could be relieved of the papacy?

A: The pope can resign but no one can force him to do so. The Code of Canon Law says, “Should it happen that the Roman Pontiff resigns from his office, it is required for validity that the resignation be freely made and properly manifested, but it is not necessary that it be accepted by anyone” (Canon 332, #2).

There have been several papal resignations. The most recent was Pope Gregory XII in 1415, allowing for the election of Pope Martin V and the end of the Great Western Schism (1378-1417).

A papal resignation would have to be public enough for the cardinals and the rest of the Church to know that a new pope needs to be elected.

There are no provisions in Church law for someone to declare a vacancy while a pope is still living.

This last one is from American Catholic

[ April 20, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]

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Alucard...
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My mother was telling me that in the history of Popes that there have been more than a few Anti-Popes. Evidently, in the Middle Ages, when it was difficult to spread the news of the selection of a new Pope rapidly, there would be some dissention of the ranks and more than one figure would rise to claim the title of Pope.

So even though you might not retire, you can get fired, or killed if you are an anti-Pope.

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Telperion the Silver
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The Roman Church is so cool to study. Long live the Emperor!
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plaid
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quote:
Can popes resign?
Oh, absolutely. A pope can certainly resign. A pope's agent looks forward to when his old contract expires and the pope can sign a new one -- usually they can negotiate a MUCH better deal.
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Elizabeth
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"It becomes a Pepsi?"

No, that would be a Popesi.

(Oh, my, I am derailing my very own thread with a pun!)

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Alistair
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quote:
(Why on earth else would anyone even consider touching that job with a ten foot pole!? I can't imagine!)

Are you kidding? Have you seen the hat that that guy gets to wear? How could you possibly turn that down?

On the subject of papal removal I found this quote

"Accordingly, without exclusion, We subject to severest excommunication anyone - be it ourselves or be it another - who would dare to undertake anything new in contradiction to this constituted evangelic Tradition and the purity of the Orthodox Faith and the Christian Religion, or would seek to change anything by his opposing efforts, or would agree with those who undertake such a blasphemous venture." - POPE ST. AGATHO (678-681)

Furthermore Pope Vigilius (537-555) appears to have been excommunicated while in office, leading to the end of his pontificy (or whatever the word would be)

I also found references to Pope Zosimus (417-418), and Pope Honorius I (625-638) being condemned by the church, but no specific reference to them being excommunicated.

Of course all of these examples are in the range of 1500 ago so things may have changed. But there is precedence at least.

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Elizabeth
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It is all so fascinating to me. Thanks, oh knowledgeable ones.
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Ele
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Actually, according to what I've seen, you don't have to be an antipope to get killed. One of Benedict's other namessakes was poisoned by political rivals. (And, of course, there was the JPI conspiracy theory.)
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jebus202
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quote:
Honestly, I seriously doubt an Ex-Nazi is someone worthy of being pope.
Hello? He's a Catholic. Thinking a Nazi can't do a good job as Pope is like thinking the fattest man in town can't win the eating contest. The two greatest evils on earth have finally merged.

I kid because I love.

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Kent
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"I did it for love! Love of not going to jail!" - Homer Simpson [Taunt]
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Noemon
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What happens if a pope and an anti-pope come into physical contact with each other?
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larisse
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quote:
What happens if a pope and an anti-pope come into physical contact with each other?
Armageddon?

It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.

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Alucard...
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larisse,

The last antipope I see is one Felix V in 1439. Worth noting is that some brances of the Catholic Church claim to this day that the papal line is not legitimate, and that theirs is the true line.

Here is a link to a chronology of "il papi'". It gives a few brief descriptions where applicable...and is very brief itself

http://pw2.netcom.com/~wbaxter/archive/r_popes.html

And I had to quote this one:

quote:
Callistus I
217-222


Born in Rome. He was the slave of a Christian master, and was involved in some financial matters that led to him being sentenced to hard labor in the Sardinian quarries. After being released, he was freed and taken into the church by Pope Zephyrinus. Callistus I was strongly opposed by the rigorist party (including the future pope Hyppolytus) because of his gentle treatment of sinners. (ADS)

"Callistus was a slave of Carporphorus, a Christian employed in the imperial palace. To Callistus, as being of the faith, Carpophorus entrusted no inconsiderable amount of money, and directed him to bring in profit from banking. He took the money and started business in what is called Fish Market Ward. As time passed, not a few deposits were entrusted to him by widows and brethern... Callistus, however, embezzled the lot, and became financially embarrassed." When Carporphorus heard of this, he demanded an accounting, but... Callistus absconded and fled. "Finding a vessel in the port ready for a voyage, he went on board, intending to sail wherever she happened to be bound for." When his master pursued him onto the ship, Callistus knew he was trapped, and, in desperation, jumped overboard. Rescued against his will by the sailors as the crowd on shore shouted encouragement, Callistus was handed over to Carporphorus, returned to Rome, and placed in penal servitude. (GG p. 109, citation from the writings of HYPPOLYTUS)

He ordained married clergy, including some who had been married two or three times. He insisted that sex was normal and healthy, and that abortion (even induced) was natural and not a sin. (UZ p. 101)




[ April 23, 2005, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Alucard... ]

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Alucard...
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(let me explain the quote though)

I was thinking of naming our unborn daughter Callista, and my mom was researching the name online and found a reference to this pope. Evidently, a few antipopes were named Callisto or Callistus...

[ April 23, 2005, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Alucard... ]

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Elizabeth
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There was also a really evil woman on Xena named Callista.
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Alucard...
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Hey Liz, read the PA gathering thread. I tried to email you but it was blocked...
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Elizabeth
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My email was blocked? edob63@yahoo.com
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