posted
There are two things that I've always felt set Hatrack apart from most of the online forums I've explored. One is the "speak with passion listen with respect" ideal which is aspired to here, and the other is the degree of attention that's paid to grammar and spelling.
We've had a number of people who, when they first began posting here, demonstrated such incredibly poor writing skills that their posts were all but unreadable, but whose writing abilities improved drastically when it became clear that in order to develop respect here they needed to be able to communicate clearly.
In a post on the other side, in response to a new member saying :
quote:i could go on for days but im not going to. Im just fifteen so if ne one reads this and says to themself "this guy has bad grammer," or "this guy makes no sense," im fifteen and you know what that means.
OSC said:
quote:Your grammar's fine. Online postings are a branch of oral literature <grin> so only pinheads get upset about informality online.
I'd agree that the writing in most posts here is fairly informal--sentence fragments, slang, and so forth are common elements of many posts here, including my own--but nonetheless I don't think that it's "pinheaded" to expect a certain level of clarity in a post that is intended to be read and responded to by other members of the forum. In the past when someone has begun their posting career with an agrammatical bang they've been called on it fairly quickly, and have generally responded well.
A good example of this would be Maethoriell. Anybody remember what her posts were like when she first came to the forum? Here's an example of one of the earliest threads in which she appeared:
quote:uh....im new..thanks Toretha..uh...abot the TTT, uh..u really don't think ppl would actualy dot hat about teh 9/11 thing, if they had to change movie scenes b4 it? i mean there was collaterall damage i think, mib2, and i think 3 others..yes, it was made b4 the 9/11 attack was and they could've changed the title, but it's the titleof a book so techincaly they can't, AND if they were to take it out of theaters, u wouldn't understand the final of the three. return of the king, (ROTK)..don't b embarrassed if u r..many other could've made da same mistake, u know..but it is rather funny no offense..lol..or bettr. roflmao,2...ok.ok..if u'd like any info about TTT i got some for ya..i'm a big fanatic like da rest hea..so um..next time u want to make a lsight criticism, i tihnk it wise to make sure u look up in da origin and stuff like dat..could get u humiliated if u dont..worse if it's on cyberspace..hehe.. laterz..say hi to agath lucifretta bob 4 me plz toretha? lolz.don't ask about bob
To me, that's so difficult to read as to be nearly impenetrable. Mae was asked to spend a little time working on her grammar and spelling, to which she responded:
quote:don't worry..as long as u know the basis, ur ok.it's just extra stuff i put sincei ype wut my mind thinks forgetting that i'm typing stuff that may seem absurd...anyway i'im only in junior high. we're not supposed to make sense
Quite correctly, in my mind, Scott R called her on this, saying "Baloney. Don't EVER use your age for an excuse in this forum."
Mae took this to heart, and in fairly short order her posts became clear. She became a respected and valued member of the forum, which would not have happened had she continued posting as she had been. I see this as a good thing, and the expectation that people adhere to certain standards of grammar and spelling in their posts seems pretty reasonable to me.
Something else that I like about the forum is that we've never accepted "I'm only X years old--I shouldn't be held to the same standards as everyone else" as a valid excuse for anything.
Any thoughts on this?
OSC, if you happen into this thread, I'm especially interested to hear your thoughts on this. Do you see the attention to grammar and spelling exhibited by most people on this forum as being misplaced? Do you not feel that it adds value to the forum to have posts appear in a standard dialect, with that dialect's rules of grammar observed?
posted
Ya know, sometimes it is real hard to see when OSC is being tongue-in-cheek, since we can't see his face...
Posts: 9538 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
In my opinion, it's misplaced for people to be completely anal-retentive about grammar and spelling online. These are people who are completely hung-up by the arrangement of the letters and cannot appreciate a thought/post if it has any errors in grammar and/or spelling.
I think using proper spelling and grammar (to the best of your ability) is wise. Not that each post needs be composed as if it was an article being published in a scholarly journal, but proper spelling and grammar makes it easier for people to understand what you're saying.
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I really don't mind when people don't use perfect grammar or spelling in their posts, as long as it's understandable, but it's the unintelligable ones that I find unacceptable. I've had the same grammar and spelling skills since I was about 8 (when I got an unabridged dictionary for my birthday), and so I agree that anyone who wishes to communicate with us should make their best attempt to do so, regardless of age. I think most unintelligable posts could be clarified with just a little more time and effort on the part of the poster. We do have accepted abbreviations here, such as "IIRC", and we have "in-joke" misspellings, like "teh", and we do enjoy an occasional jokey 1334 post now and then. What I love about Hatrack, though, is that everyone who ends up staying really is serious about being respectful, and part of that is communicating clearly. Yay for Hatrack!
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I was an English Major, and I do some parttime copy editing occassionally, but I think we can afford to be a little more flexible online. It is, after all, a bit more like conversation than, say, correspondence.
Truthfully, though, I think email may have completely killed the art of letter-writing. That's a topic for another day.
Online communities are often multicultural, and we should keep this in mind. Since I have recently converted to Rabid Otaku Mama, I will share a recent example from an anime community that I belong to.
Most posts to the above-mentioned community are in English, some in Japanese and occassionaly other languages as people discover that other posters are native speakers of their first language.
So we prettymuch universally accept the bad conjugation of verbs or lack of subject-verb number agreement as somebody doing their best. Excessive use of l33t is discouraged, but people will translate for n00bs if asked. I know this because I'm old enough to know the value of asking and finding the answer is higher than the value of not looking foolish. I still sometimes foreget what the heck AFIK (or whatever) means.
The focus is on communicating effectively, so misspellings and typos are not really important, unless they open the sentence to interpretations other than the one the writer intended.
posted
Oh, I definitely cut slack to people for whom English is a second language. Enormous amounts of slack actually.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: Ya know, sometimes it is real hard to see when OSC is being tongue-in-cheek, since we can't see his face...
Well, since his job is making himself understood in text, it should be a little bit easier. But then, of course, he's not going over his posts two and three times and then having other people go over them. (Except, apparently, us)
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Well, since his job is making himself understood in text, it should be a little bit easier.
But posting here is not his job. If he had to put forth as much effort posting here as his professional writing, we would not see much of him. Posts: 751 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
There's a big difference between having less-than-perfect grammar and spelling and lapsing into chatroom level language here. I do notice most of the mistakes people make in their posts because I edit stuff all day. But usually what they mean is perfectly clear, and there's certainly no sense in pointing out their mistakes.. I'll call people on their writing when their errors start obscuring what they're trying to say. I think I'm justified in doing that.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:There's a big difference between having less-than-perfect grammar and spelling and lapsing into chatroom level language here. I do notice most of the mistakes people make in their posts because I edit stuff all day. But usually what they mean is perfectly clear, and there's certainly no sense in pointing out their mistakes.. I'll call people on their writing when their errors start obscuring what they're trying to say. I think I'm justified in doing that.
See, that's almost exactly how I feel about it too. You expressed it much better than I did though, I think.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I think OSC is just trying to be encouraging of someone who is for whatever reason defensive. Though I'll feel bad for ne-man if he flashes his "license to misspell" around. And I don't see the use of "ne" as a grammar issue so much as a coolness thing.
I guess the weird thing is that ne appears in a different pronunciation and context in Ender's Game.
I am glad no one gets on my case for not always using perfect italicization, quote marks etc. or polices dangling prepositions. We all have our personal grammar boundaries. Or does the coining of "personal grammar boundaries" place me firmly in the pinhead category? <: )
posted
The difference between having a conversation in person and on line is if we are talking you don't know that I can't spell. I don't mind errors, but I think you need to put some effort into it so others can understand you.
What does IIRC mean and what is a 1334 post?
Posts: 747 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote: But usually what they mean is perfectly clear, and there's certainly no sense in pointing out their mistakes..
And yet, we all know that there are folks that do this anyway. Yea, even here at Hatrack. I happen to think that THESE people are pinheads. On a slow computer, it's a pain in the arse to edit a post and often takes a long time, so I'm bugged when these said pinheads point out double periods and dangling participles with the expectation that you'll wade into your post and fix it.
Now some of us are our own worst grammar pinhead...and yes. That sentence didn't make much sense.
posted
IIRC: If I recall correctly. 1337: Means "leet" and is kind of a geek/hacker shibboleth (although more of a joke than anything around here). If you speak 1337 then you're touting your superior knowledge of all things computers.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:IIRC: If I recall correctly. 1337: Means "leet" and is kind of a geek/hacker shibboleth (although more of a joke than anything around here). If you speak 1337 then you're touting your superior knowledge of all things computers.
I love you guys.
As to the topic, I skip it if it's too painful to read. Self-justification: I just don't give myself the patience to read something that the other person didn't take any patience to write.
Posts: 169 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:As to the topic, I skip it if it's too painful to read. Self-justification: I just don't give myself the patience to read something that the other person didn't take any patience to write.
I'll second this. There are several posters here whose posts I almost never read because they're just not worth trying to decipher. An occasional misspelling or typo can be distracting, but is no big deal. But when there's no sentence or paragraph structure, punctuation or capitalization, it's not worth it to try to figure out what the poster's trying to say.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I'll third it. I routinely ignore posts that are difficult to read.
Re the original question posed by Noemon - I don't give people much leeway for their age. No one can seriously tell me that a 15 year-old doesn't know how to use contractions. The problem with allowing people too much leeway with grammar and spelling (within reason, as we're all speaking) is that bad grammar and spelling seriously inhibits their ability to communicate with others on the board - which is the purpose for being on a forum in the first place, neh?
posted
I'm not sure how you got that stuck in your head, Stephen, but our Latin teacher had us translated into Latin and sing it, so I have bits of it in Latin in my head. cursicurit is pretty cool word, I must say.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I totally agree with you, Noemon. And with Scott R saying that age doesn't matter. It doesn't! I mean, I'm only 16 and I started posting when I was 14 (I think). It shouldn't be an issue if people just spend a little more time composing their responses.
Posts: 1466 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Perhaps OSC meant that it is OK to be casual here, not completely grammatically perfect all the time, because it is more of a conversation than a term paper.
That doesn't mean that all usage rules have to be denigrated or ignored, but that sometimes people here nitpick the little thing rather than deal with the bigger issues.
That being said, I know I make a lot of mistakes....between learning to type and poor spelling skills I am a bit off a lot of the time. However, I do try to correct them if I see them, depending on the thread that I posted in. If it is just fluff, then I don't care most of the time, but if it is on a serious topic then I try to be fairly clear.
If something hurts to read it, I usually skip it.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I guess I have nothing original to add here, but I'll toss in my pair of pennies anyway.
Studying English grammar is kind of a hobby of mine, so I like to think I do a pretty good job with it most of the time. Sometimes I'll switch to a more casual slang for humorous purposes, but most of the time my dialect is pretty standard. I don't see how using mostly correct grammar would take all that much effort for anyone that reads books regularly.
That said, I don't have much patience for "grammar Nazis", as the unfortunate Internet term has it. This forum is a pretty casual place. Sometimes we have very serious discussions, and the level of discourse is always higher than on most forums because of the nature of the forum itself. But when you get down to it, it's still just conversation. We're not writing a tome for scholars here. We're just chatting. If we could, we'd get together in the same room and do the same thing we already do, but with speech. It's just conversation. So nitpicking about things like the use of "less" where "fewer" is needed, or the number of periods in an ellipsis, or any of a thousand other minor details, is out of place.
On the other hand, if your post needs a secret decoder ring to read, I'm not going to bother. I don't have time to sit here and crack your code because you're too lazy to spell out "anyone" or insert a paragraph break here and there.
quote:u really don't think ppl would actualy dot hat about teh 9/11 thing, if they had to change movie scenes b4 it?
I see things like that, and I stop reading. I don't care what else follows. It's not that I think the person that wrote it is stupid. Intelligence has nothing to do with it. For all I know, there might have been something really insightful and wise buried in that post. But damned if I'll ever get to it, because I can't read this. If I put some effort into it, I could figure it out. But if the writer couldn't be bothered to put in the effort to be comprehensible in the first place, then I'm just going to assume that there's nothing in there that I need to read. If it wasn't worth the time to them, it's not worth the time to me.
Age is also never an excuse. I don't care if you're fourteen years old. I was fourteen once myself, and my grammar was just fine, thank you. No one expects you to be able to explain what a gerund is or what the rule is for using "who" and "whom", but the bottom line is that if you're old enough to read our conversations and want to join them, then you're old enough to have a basic grasp of grammar that should let you make posts that are not absolutely impenetrable.
I make exceptions to all that for those to whom English is not a native language. I've studied many foreign languages, and I know what it's like wanting to communicate with people and only being able to in a rough fashion with a great deal of effort. As long as I can tell they're trying, I'm willing to cut them some slack.
posted
I, being only 17, have always tried to do my best with the spelling and grammar part of the posts. I always hate it when people use their age as an excuse as to why they should be given some slack. This forum, as far as I'm concerned is filled with the best minds I have ever come across and it only makes sense that there would be at least a little effort to make the post readable.
Wouldn't it be embarassing if there was a huge error in this post? Like I said, I try for spelling and grammar, making sense comes second.
Posts: 283 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
rivka, did you use the original graffiti very much? I am continually getting my Is, Ts, and Vs wrong. Which makes it pretty hard to write my name.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
You already heard my feelings about this, and quoted them. Only pinheads get upset about informality online.
We make typos. Sometimes they're funny and we get teased about them. But this is conversation, NOT formal essay writing.
Because the standards are high here people naturally try to look respectable. That's a good thing, but one requiring neither enforcement nor encouragement.
At the same time, people here are (or should be) tolerant of those whose spelling skills are not well-developed, those for whom English is a second language, or those whose native English is a dialect or subset of English with different rules. From what I've seen, that tolerance is pretty well-developed and widespread, and I appreciate it. I'd hate to have anyone think that their lack of mastery of grammar rules disqualified them from taking part as full members of this community.
Especially since I generally find that the people who are most fussy about grammar rules are usually the very ones who have no idea what they're talking about - the ones who have embraced pinheaded, invented "rules" like not ending sentences with prepositions, etc. I've been a copy editor - and a very good one. I see EVERY grammar mistake. And I invariably find them in the writings of people who presume to criticize the grammar of others.
NOBODY speaks or writes without error. You get into a sentence and forgot how you began, so you end it differently (and ungrammatically). So what? In conversation, we forgive things like that all the time. All I was saying was, online postings are treated like a branch of oral conversation - we are informal. We tolerate error as long as sense is clear and the intention is communication.
Let none feel unwelcome because they do not measure up to some arbitrary ruleset on formal language usage! EVERYBODY speaks the grammar of their own dialect PERFECTLY. (And yes, I am deliberately using the plural possessive THEIR with the formerly singular but now felt-as-plural "everybody" because it's more convenient and is long established in common usage.)
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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quote: Because the standards are high here people naturally try to look respectable. That's a good thing, but one requiring neither enforcement nor encouragement.
I am not so sure about this. I agree that it doesn't need enforcement, to be sure, but I try to encourage good writing skills, and I try to practice them on my own as well.
Then again, it isn't my board......
However, I don't freak out if I see a typo (my most common mistake, although not my only one to be sure) or a misspelled word or three.
I had a very similar conversation with a person here, about these thread being a weird hybrid of conversations and essays. He was offended that I would leave and go to bed without concluding the "conversation", but my point was that this type of board is an open conversation that I could come back to in the morning when I was ready to continue.
I think that the fact that most of us ignore posts that are too poorly written does a lot of the "enforcing" for us, usually.
posted
I think Uncle Orson would've made a good linguist.
I can't recall anyone ever getting upset about informality on Hatrack. I think we all understand that this is more of a conversation than a dissertation. But even in conversation, there are rules and guidelines that one should consider if one wishes to be heard and understood. It would be lame to say, "I'm only fifteen, so I shouldn't be expected not to mumble," just as it is lame to say (at least in my opinion), "I'm only fifteen, so I shouldn't be expected to spell out words."
And honestly, I think Hatrackers are very good about not being uptight grammar nazis. I'm occasionally an uptight grammar nazi myself, but I try to relax and just enjoy everyone's company and conversation. Like Scott said, it's impossible to turn off the copyeditor inside you, but at least I can usually resist the impulse to edit everyone's posts, because that just doesn't help anything. Having your grammatical shortcomings pointed out usually just makes you insecure and resentful, so it does more harm than good.
If a community values clear and understandable communication, then its members will strive for it. In my experience, Hatrackers have been very good about both communicating well and politely helping people to communicate better if there is a problem.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Let none feel unwelcome because they do not measure up to some arbitrary ruleset on formal language usage! EVERYBODY speaks the grammar of their own dialect PERFECTLY. (And yes, I am deliberately using the plural possessive THEIR with the formerly singular but now felt-as-plural "everybody" because it's more convenient and is long established in common usage.)
What, "their" isn't a gender neutral singular possessive in that statement? <ducking and running>
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
If a poster doesn't care to make their post legible, then I don't care to read it.
Nitpicky issues I don't care so much about, other than to poke fun at people who are being nitpicky - normally through pointing out their own errors.
It's the people who feel the need to abbreviate every word that bug me, i.e. b4-before, l8r-later, ne-any, ur-you are, y-why, u-you, etc...
Wood hit bee awl rite two hues uh send ants width alm host awl homonyms? No, it'd drive people crazy.
I remember a while back really getting on someone's case about this - maybe two years ago. I don't even know if that person is still around, but the problem ended up being that the poster wasn't the best typist and was rushing. Easily solved after the problem was identified, and the posts became readable.
If I remember, the person was making some great points, too, but they were lost in the woods of their misstyping.
Anyway, that's my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation).
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
"And I invariably find them in the writings of people who presume to criticize the grammar of others."
This is, I believe, a codified rule of Internet debate. Anyone who posts to correct the grammar of someone else is required to have at least error in the body of his or her own post.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
There are plenty of people here who have English as a second or third language, abd I dont' usually see anyone giving them a hard time. I know that their English is a lot better than my French or Spanish (which I don't understand at all) would be these days, so even if their posts are hard to understand I make the effort to read them.
However, there are some people here who write worse than the ESL people, and don't have the same excuse to justify it. I don't usually bother with them at all.
I think Scott made it clear that the "Pinheads" aren't the people who care about being understood (I hope so, anyway... ), but rather the people who seem to have nothing better to do than dissect others posts looking for grammar mistakes.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Tom and OSc are right, of course. I expect to get teased here when I throw out some typo or grammatical howler. But correcting people's grammar in a condescending manner is teh suck.
There was this really great writer I knew on an online writing workshop, who tended to get Editor's choice Awards for her short stories and grew a long list of publishing credits in a very short time. Then, this new woman joined the group, and made a game out of sniping at "grammatical errors" that were really stylistic choices. I mean, in striving for a conversational tone for a particular story, she'd have the occassional sentence fragment or preposition at the end of a sentence. This woman even jumped on her for using contractions in fiction (outside of dialogue).
It was counter-productive, because instead of making her look smart and this other writer look bad, she just made herself look like a raving beyotch.
Which she was.
Stuff like that says more about the finger-pointer than the, erm, pointee, and most of it just ain't nice!
Grammar Nazis, you may now broil the above post, presented for your delectation. Nyah.
posted
Though I can't claim any experience in this particular forum, I've found that the healthiest and most interesting message boards strive to be understandable. Forcing others to read through netspeak, 13375p33k or blatantly careless capitalization simply because you can't be bothered to write properly is disrespectful--even offensive.
On the other hand, posting simply to call someone out on grammar (particularly on informal forums, or in cases in which the offender has a legitimate reason for not having perfect grammar) is also often uncivil and insulting.
As for the age-as-an-excuse: well, to me that's always been rather flimsy. Then again, for about half my life I've been an Annoying Nerd Who Actually Likes English and Math, Go Figure. Given that half my life is only about eight years, though... At any rate, I believe that the least you could do when unsure as to spelling etc. is run your post through Microsoft Word. Yes, it's often idiotic in its suggestions, but it is better than nothing.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Where is the line between informality and unreadability? We're fine with a few grammatical errors and spelling mistakes, sentence fragments, and run-on sentences, generally. I happen to use elipses pretty regularly when posting, something I wouldn't do when writing a formal paper. But there really does come a point when trying to read someone's post verges on cryptography. Maybe it's just subjective, I don't know.
Hey, papercrane, welcome to Hatrack. Do you like origami?
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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