posted
That is sad the book was very very good for a star wars book. I gave it to my nephew before I left but i was most impressed by how it took a known point, the end of the last movie, and another known point, the beginning of the first, and connected them while still being surprising. It was belivable as written, the fall of anikin a self fullfilling prophesey.
posted
I didn't like that Padme in this movie changed from being a fairly strong female character who isn't afraid of anything, to one who sits around all day waiting for Anakin to come home and talking about how scared she is. Fully a third of her lines were some variation of, "I'm scared." It was like we were looking at a completely different character.
I loved Anakin's, "You turned her against me." Um, let's see, who was just strangling her to death? Oh, you! Yea, it's Obi-Wan that's the problem here.
I thought the relationships between both Anakin and Obi-Wan and Anakin and Palpatine were much more realistic here. I could actually understand why Anakin ended up making the choice he did, even though it was (obviously) the evil one.
The portrayal of politics and really humanity in general was also more realistic than I had any reason to expect. Everyone was portrayed in shades of gray and black. No one was blameless. There really weren't any stereotypical "good guys." You were rooting for the Jedi because they were better than the alternative, not because they were perfect, they clearly were not.
Obi-Wan leaving the lava pit was perfect. It made up for a lot of sins.
Not to say there weren't plenty of things to complain about. There were. But unlike the first two, which were just generally so bad it was hard to find anything more specific to complain about than the general fact that they existed, this movie had as much good as it had bad.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
As far as droid comedy, I didn't mind anything that R2D2 or C-3PO did, but I thought the other droids flippant little comments and noises all over the place were a little over the top. THAT kind of droid comedy has not always been a part of the show. But I guess it was needed to give a little levity before the darkness that was to follow.
For the dialogue, I felt it was a thousand times better in this movie. I was entirely into it, and rarely ever shook my head at a bad line. Lines from the OT were just as silly, but we let those go for some reason. Star Wars is still Star Wars, no matter which episode. People need to give it a break and realize that that kind of dialogue comes with the movie, it's a package deal. And either way, I still argue with those who call it bad, I thought it was great.
There did seem to be something lacking between Padme and Anakin, though I thought their onscreen chemistry was a lot more believable in this movie.
As for the Bush/Sith thing. It was the first thing that popped into my head at the movie because the the leader of our nation is, to me, the most recent person to have said that. Doesn't mean I still think that Lucas called Bush a Sith Lord or whatever, it was just a reflexive thought in my mind. Though I too am more disturbed by the fact that Bush seems to have worse lines than any sci fi villain.
All in all I felt it was a fantastic movie. Hadyn does a much better job as Anakin in this film. The Order 66 stuff had me in knots, I wanted to yell at the screen or turn away. A lot of the movie gave me that feeling, which I took to be a good sign. I wasn't wanting to turn away because I thought it was bad, I wanted to turn away because I just didn't want to see that happen, but I knew it had to, and I still watched.
Was it the best film of the series? No, I still like Return of the Jedi better. But in my mind it is certainly on the same level as the OT, and reclaims the spirit of Star Wars in most every way, shape and form.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
While I can't speak for others, I notice the painful dialogue more in these movies because there's not a single character in the prequels that I care about. I'm not invested in them, I'm not identifying with them, I really don't care what happens to them. Thus I have far too much time to look around at all the cracks in the glitzy wallpaper.
I would really, really have liked to have seen these movies - same characters, same actors, same basic storyline - done with a different screenwriter and a different director. This movie made Samuel L. Jackson boring, and that's tough to do.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
This movie rocked! I loved the fact that for the first time there really were clear-cut villans.
My only complaint is about Anakin's dialogue. Every once and a while he would spit some monologue out and just be the angsty teenager from Life as a House again. I think it's mostly the result of poor writting as Star Wars lines have always been a little difficult for the actors to deliver. This poorly written dialogue even caused James Earl Jones' lines to sound a little corny.
However, I wouldn't say it detracted too much from the movie, like I said it was awesome.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anything said by Darth Vader in that movie had to sound corny. It wouldn't have mattered who wrote it, what it was, none of that.
The only Vader lines we have ever heard are him saying "join the dark side" blah blah "I'm your father" and all that.
So when he comes out and says what he says in Ep. III, of course it will seem a little silly compared to what we are used to. But that would happen no matter what, it's unavoidable.
As for Anakin's dialogue. Is it possible that he sounds like an angtsy teenager because he IS (or age wise at least very close to) an angsty teenager? You want him to act like he's 40?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have a few minor quibles about the movie. Spoiler alert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What was the point of the wookie battle? I heard reports that the Operation 66 scene was edited so that a few Jedi would be alive for the TV show...and it showed. For instance, where was Shaak Ti? Is Darth Plageius Anakin's dad? Darth Plageius had the power to move midiclorins around to create life...and Anakin was created by midiclorins....Why did they show Jar Jar?
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow Chris, you should have done yourself a favor and not gone. You obviously didn't want to enjoy it.
As for me, I thought it was amazing. So much better than episode one or two. In fact, it makes thinking about the first two even more painful, since they could have been so much better.
There were some dialogue problems, and some plot points don't make that much sense (some mentioned in Chris' link) but come on now. I could make a list of the plot points that don't make sense in the original trilogy a mile long (and people have). Oh, the crew is going out into the vacuum of space with just breathing masks on to check out a problem with the ship on an asteriod and there is a giant lizard thing that apparently can digest metal and aquire enough of it to grow huge while traveling across space in an asteroid. THAT'S LIKELY. Dialogue problems in the original trilogy? NOW WAY!
It was everything I wanted in the final prequel, and maybe more.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow. I admit that there was some bad dialogue in the first trilogy. But that was the 70's. You know, in the days of the original Star Trek, BEFORE the creation of the cliches that were ALL OVER this movie. That said, I enjoyed the movie. I just wish I hadn't had to look down at the floor and shake my head so many times (Not to mention the point in the movie where I was litteraly in PAIN from the badness of the dialogue. I forget the exact moment. I think it was one of those famed Anakin/Padme scenes that I REALLY enjoy Episode 2 by skipping entirely).
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
They are talking about how much they love each other, and it basically becomes "You're more beautiful because I'm so in love with you" awkward pause "no it's because I'm so in love with YOU" "No i love YOU more"
That's the only dialogue in the movie that made me cringe, and actually had the entire theater in hysterics it was so ridiculous.
But other than that one point, I felt the dialogue was fine, and in some cases extremely compelling.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's true. Everyone jumps all over the bad dialogue, but there was quite a bit of good stuff too. In particular, most of Palpatine's dialogue and a lot of the stuff between Obi-wan and Anakin after his turn to the dark side.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lyrhawn...Just mentioning it hurt me. I had blocked that scene out completely as a result of the pain I felt from seeing that insane cliche placed into the history of cinema. Now I have a memory of the pain, and sure knowledge of the fact that George Lucas needs to take a class on modern movie dialogue... I will admit that Palpatine's stuff was spot on. To be honest, I think that him and Obi-wan were the only characters that actually had some depth added to them because of their dialogue. And the guy who played Anakin (don't remember his name), just can't act.
edit: Moving spoiler to spoiler thread Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Everyone jumps all over the bad dialogue, but there was quite a bit of good stuff too.
Well, that's understandable. After all, these guys are professional, and it's kinda assumed that they'll write better dialog than I could.
Posts: 751 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
My biggest complaint about the prequels was the fact that no one seemed to be as cool as the characters in the Middle trilogy, but in the 3rd one, I think Obi-Wan comes off pretty amazingly cool.
posted
This movie probably had the hardest job of any Star Wars film ever: making the viewers care about the turning point of the series. From the beginning this film carried the deep and heavy burden of the stigmata of all the prequels: bad dialogue, bad acting, and unsympathetic characters and plot. Now it had to suddenly make the dramatic events meaningful for the audience, but would be hindered because it involved characters nobody really cared about. Dealing with this problem would be the biggest obstacle of the production.
The result is a mixed bag. Lucas uses CGI to a far greater effect in this movie - gone are the days of Star Wars cartoons masquerading as movies. If anything, the special effects are often used to maximize the effect of the characters. However, certain sequences drag on for too long - such as the opening scene where Anakin and Obi Wan attempt to board a droid ship, and the scene where Obi Wan confronts Greivous, the general of the droid army. But overall, the movie is not just a string of eye candy and pointless CGI.
However, this movie does suffer from the usual prequel problems. I know that "no one comes to a Star Wars movie for the acting," but that isn't an excuse not to try. Many of the emotional scenes fall flat from clunky dialogue and half-hearted acting, particularly on the part of Christiansen, who often fails to achieve the level of tortured conscience and intimidation the role requires. There is something naturally blunt and inarticulate in his performance in both Sith and Clones that comes off as unconvincing. And Lucas still has no idea how to write a love scene. I often wonder what his romantic life must have been like, because the scenes are often unbearable forced. I found myself wondering just exactly do Padme and Anakin see in each other.
However, Lucas's dramatic skill shows through in the scenes where there is no dialogue or action - for example, when Anakin and Padme both stare out at the cityscape, wondering about their future, and the scene in which the Jedi are finally betrayed. Neither of these scenes really engage the actors or the action - they're simply the result of good direction. These are some of my favorite scenes from the film.
But what this movie really rides on is the nostalgia one gets from the old Star Wars movies. The references to episodes 4-6 occur one after the other towards the end of the movie, and the viewer gets a pang of bliss when they see the naming of Luke and Leia, or the twin suns of Tatooine, or when they hear Luke's theme rise in the music. Seeing the pieces fit together at the end really makes this movie fun to watch.
Overall, a fun and entertaining movie. Made me want to watch the old Star Wars movies all over again. 7/10
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Blacwolf, of course Padme was scared. She was pregnant, her husband was turning into a Sith Lord, the Republic was turning into an Empire, and everything was spinning out of control. I thought the Padme character was a lot more believable and sympathetic in this movie than in the first two.
I had expected to be bored by the inevitability of Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth Vader, like it would be some kind of downer trip; but actually I found it very interesting how it happened step-by-step. Maybe it was a morbid fascination, but it kept my attention, wondering what was going to happen next, how low he would sink. He sunk shockingly low!
I think Lucas has recaptured much of the magic with this one. It has more of an epic feel. Of course, the virtually wall-to-wall light sabre dueling helped move things along at a fast pace. I would rate this movie as close to being as good as Star Wars V, not as good as IV or VI, and much better than I and II.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:I think Lucas has recaptured much of the magic with this one. It has more of an epic feel. Of course, the virtually wall-to-wall light sabre dueling helped move things along at a fast pace. I would rate this movie as close to being as good as Star Wars V, not as good as IV or VI, and much better than I and II.
Hang on. Can I thus infer, Ron, that you believe Empire to be the weakest of the OT? Are you a stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking Ewok lover?
posted
Watching this movie made me wish Lucas would have stuck to original plan: instead of Ewoks Return of the Jedi would of had Wookies.
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I really don't feel like the downward spiral of Anakin was done quite as realistically as it could have been. I just feel it should have been more subtle I suppose. Palpatine's explaination of the differences between the Dark and Light sides of the force could have easily been done in a way that would have made Anakin choose to ally himself with the the dark side on a level deeper than just the "I want to save Padme" method they used. That's probably due in part to the severe lack of good acting. I really couldn't believe that Anakin would have done all the stuff he did just to save Padme. Especially since it didn't seem like the best relationship in history (Speaking of which, wouldn't the fact that Anakin goes to Padme's house every night and doesn't leave until morning tip off at least someone on the Jedi councel?). I did think it was rather interesting that Vader ended up killing his wife rather than saving her. This is, in part, why I don't believe the "turning to the dark side to save padme" thing. He turns on her just as quickly as he was willing to kill the mini-Jedi (But you have to admit, it was cool seeing a little kid lay the smack down on a few clone troopers before getting wasted by em). That suggests a deeper allegiance to the Dark side that was shown in the movie. The angry Darth Vader scene didn't do anything bug make me howl in agony from the stupidity of it. All-in-all, I actually did like the movie. It was action packed, and let's face it, it's Star Wars. Just the stuff that takes place in the universe of Star Wars is cool to me.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I remember when I saw Return the first time. I was 5. All I remember was staring at the screen in disbelief. I mean here were a bunch of teddybears defeating a professional army, with sticks and rope.
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged: I remember when I saw Return the first time. I was 5. All I remember was staring at the screen in disbelief. I mean here were a bunch of teddybears defeating a professional army, with sticks and rope.
That's why I liked it, dang you!!!
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well they better explain what went wrong in the Empire troop program. Why can't storm troopers shoot? It took 20 years to make the original Death Star but only five for the new one?
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ron- In the first two movies she would have dealt with her fear by doing something about it. In this movie all Padme did was sit around worrying about Anakin. That's ALL. This is the girl who was ruler of her homeworld at the age of 14 and a year ago was one of the most respected members of the Senate. But you know, apparently once women get married, they're not supposed to do anything important, they're just supposed to wait around for their husband to fix things. That's what made me angry.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Portman herself was a little miffed that she didn't get many action scenes, but seeing a pregnant woman fire a blaster at people in armed combat would probably be a bit much.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lucas had to ditch a sub-plot in which Padme helps begin tthe rebellion. Or so GL said in an interview I read.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wow Chris, you should have done yourself a favor and not gone. You obviously didn't want to enjoy it.
Actually, I did. And I did enjoy it more than the first two prequels.
What bothers me is not what was on the screen. What bothers me is what could have been there. This is arguably the most mythic, sweeping story ever created for the cinema, imagine what it would have been like with believable dialogue and a director who can direct something besides special effects.
I've never said the original trilogy was hole-free, far from it. Read my first comment about it in this thread. But when I watched it, I didn't care. Others feel this way about the prequels and that's fine. I might even feel that way about the originals now, and I plan to watch at least "A New Hope" this weekend to see if watching the prequels has changed how I feel about it.
Maybe I'll write another rant about that...
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
Ewan was definitely hot, although his facial hair was longer than I like (I guess it was him becoming Alec Guinness).
Re: Natalie Portman, my guy isn't all that impressed with her, either, and I don't like that she's wilting flower all of a sudden. Yes, she's got some excuses, but I think it went a bit overboard. And, I definitely noticed that her twins looked WAY bigger once born than her tummy could've accounted for beforehand.
I really enjoyed the lava pit fight, though (very intense), and there were quite a number of interesting previews, though the LWW was the best by far (and that's despite my having seen it beforehand...on the big screen, very thrilling!).
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
At least the babies actually looked like huge newborns instead of 1-month-olds, as is usual on screen.
Posts: 751 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'll take your word for it; I haven't seen enough newborn babies to be able to tell the difference. Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
The real tragedy of Star Wars is the lack of coherency and plot when it could easily have been added by hiring a halfway decen t writer as a consultant. Clearly each of these movies was written as if it were a standalone, with only very thin ties to the other films in the series. A good example of this is the appearance of midichlorians, or appointing Jar-jar as temporary senator. What, Naboo sent no one else to the capital with any political savvy?
The things Lucas did with special effects in this movie are beyong breathtaking. The effects were so good that one hardly noticed they were effects. In many cases everything just blended in perfectly. The plot drivers in this film, while still mediocre at best, were far more believable than the previous Star Wars films. Like others, I really did enjoy the movie very much. But I also cannot resist the urge to point out the many obvious fallacies which could have been easily corrected. So here is a partial list, in no particular order:
Political savvy- is everyone in the galaxy absolutely stupid? Some have said that Lucas was getting in some digs at Bush. That may or may not be the case, but if it is, then one could say that Lucas believes that all Bush supporters are as stupid as the charicatures portray. Let's see, Palpatine shows himself as a Sith, orders the death of the Jedi and grants himself unlimited powers, yet all of the senators applaud these actions? The jedi have been the protectors of the galaxy for thousands of years and are universally respected, and yet we are to believe that the senators will all applaud their deaths and give homage to the hated sith because he claims there was a plot? right...
Mace Windu whips Palpatine like a new paduan, but then Yoda can't beat him?
Lucas apparently doesn't know what to do with the leftover plot drivers after their role is done. For example, why on earth would Sidious have Vader kill the separatists? Does he just get sick of having too many followers? Why are the separatists so dumb that they don't recognize vader as the guy who foiled their plots a few years earlier?
Why can't the bad guys decide whether they want to capture or kill the jedi? One moment they are shooting at them, and then when they are helpless the bad guys kindly give them the chance to recover their fighting stance.
Why do the jedi, which can withstand the combined firepower of 2,000,000,000 droids, succumb to three or four clones?
And here is the one that really sticks in my craw: Why does feeling emotion and caring for people make Jedi evil? That is the one I can't get past. If Luke gets ticked off at the emperor for killing his friends, he will somehow become an evil minion of the dark side of the force. If Anakin worries about his wife and unborn children, he will fall to the dark side of the force. Ridiculous!
Posts: 4548 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
I'll only nitpick with the plot details you mentioned First of all, Palpatine only reveals himself as a Sith Lord to the Jedi-whom he then murders, kills, and discredits as revolutionaries who are plotting a coup. The Senate had voted him nigh-unlimited powers before Revenge of the Sith, and they were happy he'd foiled the evil Jedi and the Seperatists. Don't forget that many of them were corrupt anyway.
Mace Windu had Palpatine on his heels because Palpatine knew Anakin would come storming in. Only by appearing to be what he looked like-a man only barely, barely holding his own against the Jedi who is determined to murder (not really, since a Sith Lord or a Jedi for that matter is never really unarmed, but it appeared to be murder) only by looking like that could he get Anakin to kill a Jedi.
The Seperatists you'll notice are all non-human beings. This is one of the numerous things I wish Lucas had spent a little time mentioning. The Empire we see in the OT is very human-biased. Aliens are scum and not to be trusted. Palpatine was able to swing this because people remembered the Seperatists were led by aliens-but they never knew they were formed and controlled by Palpatine. Anakin may not have appeared totally implausible to them as the new apprentice because, after all, Count Dooku was once a Jedi, too.
The Jedi cannot withstand the clone betrayl for a couple of reasons. First of all, the clones are better soldiers than the droids anyway. Second, the Jedi have been fighting with the clones for many years, building up trust. And the Jedi were unable to detect any betrayl at all, because the command was subconcious.
And you might be relieved to know that eventually, the Jedi get over their collective hangup about emotional repression.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm happy I actually read the book. In the book Palpatine plays audio of the jedi trying to arrest him and from the way it sounds they really are trying to take over the senate. In the book the they made it seem like Palpatine almost lost on purpose, to prove to Anakin that the Jedi were indeed evil, and were trying to take over. When Order 66 is given in the book it is explained that since they were clones, and thus trained this way and made this way, have no malice or ill will toward the jedi. They are just following orders. So the Jedi never even suspect it, never see it coming. In the book the Separtist reconize Lord Vader, say something along the lines of, wait, you're Anakin blah blah blah. He kills the Separtist leaders for two reasons: One they have to much power, they control trade routes etc. And two Palpatine is Xenophobic, he hates non humans. What better way to discredit non human aliens then to have them lead a war that has killed billions? Thats why in Episodes 4-6 they are only Humans on the Star destoyers.
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
First of all, Palpatine only reveals himself as a Sith Lord to the Jedi-whom he then murders, kills, and discredits as revolutionaries who are plotting a coup. The Senate had voted him nigh-unlimited powers before Revenge of the Sith, and they were happy he'd foiled the evil Jedi and the Seperatists. Don't forget that many of them were corrupt anyway.
