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Author Topic: Okay, who knows a lot about religion?
TL
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Question. I am looking for a religion. It must meet certain requirements.

1) It must be capable of sustaining multiple congregations.

2) Individual congregations must be governed (mainly) by a single man or woman (priest, pastor, bishop -- whatever).

3) This person must be allowed to have a family -- no vow of celibacy or anything.

4) This person must have a certain degree of freedom in interpreting the larger message of the religion.

5) This person has very little interference /supervision from church higher-ups. (Note: it is acceptable if the reason he has so little interference is simply because he is located maybe in a small town which is not near other congregations within the same religion).

6) This person earns a wage from the religion and might (or might not) have his housing provided by them.

7) This is a Christian religion of some kind.

8) This is not Baptism.

9) (optional) It would be really nice if this religion had some sort of online presence describing beliefs, rites, and other information, sort of like the LDS websites do. That way I can really dig in and study it without leaving the house.

10) (optional) It would also be nice if the followers of this religion enjoyed wearing symbolic jewelry such as crosses or crucifixes.

Thank you, hatrack geniuses, for any and all attempts to steer me in the right direction! And if all of these criteria can't *exactly* be met, just let me know if you know of anything even similar. Okay?

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TomDavidson
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Why not start your own millennialist cult?
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ketchupqueen
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Is this for a story or for you? Oh, and I believe that they prefer "Baptist Church", not "Baptism", baptism being a rite or ordinance. [Wink]
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TL
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Uh, good point kq.

revision:

8) This is not the Baptist Church.

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Valentine014
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Sounds like a want ad. I too am shopping for a religion. Let me know what you find, TL and I'll order one too.
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King of Men
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The Evil Atheist Conspiracy (tm) satisfies all your demands except for number 7.
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TomDavidson
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I just can't figure out this request. Have you been feeling the call to clergy, but want to shop the benefits packages first? [Smile]
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TheDisgruntledPostman
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I know alot about theology and catholosisim, and that dosent sound like what you want, unless you have a decon at your church, a decon isnt a preist. But a decon can have a wife and family, but they must go to the church after they have already been married and have children.
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TheDisgruntledPostman
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I know alot about theology and catholosisim, and that dosent sound like what you want, unless you have a decon at your church, a decon isnt a preist. But a decon can have a wife and family, but they must go to the church after they have already been married and have children.
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Noemon
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quote:
they must go to the church after they have already been married and have children.
Wait, I'm confused--do they have to go to church for the conception, or the delivery?
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rivka
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Is it me, or does it sound less like TL is religion-shopping, and more like he(?) is writing a story?

(Apologies if this is not the case.)

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Noemon
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That was my assumption, rivka.
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TL
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.....
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TL
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.....
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Rappin' Ronnie Reagan
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I've found that words can express a lot more meaning than periods can.
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ricree101
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Methodism might work for you.
4& 5 are kinda iffy.

4) I know some churches do allow a lot of room for interpretation, since the one I grew up in did. However, I have heard that there are other churches that do not. I've never actually been to any that do, so I can't say for sure.

5) There is a fairly centralized administration which, among other things, controls where pastors are actually assigned. I'm not sure how much the administration actually does in an individual congregation, though. At a small church, it seems possible that they would be fairly free of interference. I don't know enough to actually answer for sure.

10) As far as I know, the church is pretty neutral about this. However, my church is pretty big into visual symbols of faith, so worn jewelry could be consistent with this.


I haven't really looked at umc.org, but it should have a decent amount of information on it.

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TL
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Thanks ricree101!
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Parsimony
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I kinda hope it's for writing a story...

--ApostleRadio

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TheDisgruntledPostman
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Decons have to have a family before they become a decon, once you are one you can't "supply" children, sucks but its better than nothing.
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Glenn Arnold
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KoM:

Shhh!

The EAC doesn't exist!

(it also doesn't satisfy #6)

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Telperion the Silver
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This sounds like the anglican church.
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Fusiachi
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My first thought was a rural Methodist church.

Then again, I might be biased. In fact, I am. Dad was a methodist preacher.

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TL
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That's interesting, Fusiachi ....

In fact, VERY interesting. Can I email you with a few questions? (Or even ask them here on hatrack?)

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Boon
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Yeah, I was gonna say that it sounded a lot like my grandpa's last church right before he retired. (First United Methodist, tiny town, parsonage, etc.)

Actually, his retirement church was even smaller, but eventually closed completely because it couldn't pay the property taxes. (Long story.)

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dkw
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A United Methodist Church is not "governed" by its pastor. It's governed by its Administrative Council. The pastor could be looked at as the "CEO." sort of, although that image doesn't fit exactly.

The only way you're going to find a church governed by a single leader is if that leader founded an independant church. And most of those aren't going to fit your #1.

However, if "governed" wasn't exactly what you meant, and the UMC would work for your purposes, there is not only a lot of information at umc.org, but also an online course, UMC 101, that will give you the basics.

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Jim-Me
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Telpy had my guess... philosophically speaking, Anglican/Episcopal would be right down this alley.
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Bob_Scopatz
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I don't see how anything but a "congregationalist" church (like the Baptists) would meet #2, 4 & 5, but then it's tough to have both all three of those and have #1 be true as well. In reality, there's not a core set of beliefs in the Baptist church. There's whatever the local congregation agrees to, and they actually hire/fire the preacher so it's really the congregation leading the doctrine, not the pastor.

Of course a pastor might be better educated and more convincing than the average parishioner, and so serve as the true leader of the congregtion.

It all depends.

I'm wondering if maybe the UCC would fit the bill?

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dkw
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Oh, and Tom's post made me shudder. 'Cause we do get clergy from other denominations who try to get their credentials recognized in the UMC because of guarenteed appointment and the pension plan. It's extremely frustrating to the people on the committee responsible for interviewing these folks.
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Foust
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This is the strangest thread ever...
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TL
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Okay. I admit it. It's for a story; essentially a modern re-telling of a Biblical concept.

Man of God, poor, with no real power, challenges or confronts a wicked king. King laughs him out of the throne room at first, only to be horrified when every threat and/or promise made by the poor, seemingly powerless man comes true. Which of course it does -- cause he's got God on his side. Stupid wicked king.

In my story the character must be a man of faith, capable of believeing that God still intervenes in the lives of men. His father was a pastor whose church died out amidst conflict with this king (the Mayor), years ago.

I know the criteria I need for the faith of the main character (which is the list I posted atop). Now I need to dig in and learn as much as I can so I can treat it with respect and accuracy in the story.

The story is mainly already written, but I realized the vague, non-specific references I was making to the religion were the weakest part of the story. House of cards. And worse, it was just lazy writing.

But I knew my hatrack friends would help me out.

Didn't really want to admit it being a story, since this is the regular part of hatrack, not the writer's area.

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dkw
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Why criteria #1? Because the "flavor" I get from your description is much more an independent church than a denomination.
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
KoM:

Shhh!

The EAC doesn't exist!

(it also doesn't satisfy #6)

Certainly it does. Why else would anyone spread the Evil Atheist Propaganda (tm), if they weren't getting paid for it? The Devil is strong on Earthly rewards, you know.
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Bokonon
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I agree with Bob that any of the Congregationalist churches would satisfy most of your criteria (the UCC, NACCC, CCC). Those are main ones, but there are some number of independent congregationalist churches as well.

-Bok

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Avin
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TL, your description fits exactly with the denomination I am a part of, the Episcopal Church (hereafter:ECUSA) (worldwide: Anglican Church). Note: I am not here trying to promote my own denomination, because I think it's rather a messed up denomination; the only reason I'm a part of it is because I happen to be a part of a great individual church in it.

- ECUSA has congregations across the United States, and the Anglican church throughout the world. In fact, there are more Anglicans in Africa than any other continent, and probably at least a third of all Anglicans worldwide live in Nigeria.

- The Anglican church is headed by a council of Archbishops from each country, led by the Archbishop of Canterbury. However this council has very little say in the congregations it is a part of; this is evidenced by the fact that ECUSA is considered "in rebellion" to the rest of the Anglican church because of unorthodox views and actions (ordaining an actively gay bishop) and very little has been done about it in the past couple years since the issue came up.

- More specifically, the congregations are grouped by "diocese", which usually correspond to a metropolitan area and the surrounding country. Each diocese is headed by a bishop, which have more authority than the Archbishops, but less than you would expect; (i.e. an individual pastor or congregation can still get away with dissent from their bishop quite easily - two congregations in my diocese are currently engaged in a lawsuit against my bishop, for instance)

- Individual congregations are governed mainly by the chief priest, called the "rector." This can be a man or woman, and is certainly capable of being married and having families. They can even be divorced, gay, etc, depending on the diocese. There is also a lay body made up of congregants called the vestry that make certain leadership decisions, but operates jointly with the rector.

- The Anglican church was founded with diversity of theology in mind specifically; the idea was anything that fell within traditional "Protestant" beliefs would be accepted, and this umbrella has since expanded beyond what most people would have even wanted, as evidenced by the current widely divergent views.

- The priest in this case does recieve a salary, as might several other people employed by the church, and can recieve housing although it usually isn't standard.

- There is lots of symbolism and imagery present, and a comparatively highly liturgical tradition with most protestants. This includes crucifixes, candles, priestly collars and garments, altars, etc.

Websites:

www.anglican.org - Official website of the entire Anglican communion. This seems to have very little on it, because the church itself as mentioned is not centralized at the international level.

www.episcopalchurch.org - Official website of the Episcopal church, USA

www.pgh.anglican.org - Official website of the diocese of Pittsburgh

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TomDavidson
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I would find it hysterically funny if the Anglican church -- one of the few churches that's completely open about its creation as a political compromise -- wound up producing a prophet of God. [Smile]
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Jim-Me
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It *has* certainly produced some interesting Christian thinkers (Lewis and Chesterton come immediately to mind, though the latter became Roman Catholic, eventually).
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IrishAphrodite19
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The Disciples of Christ (Christian Church), for short DOC, might work for you. It's not well known but it is a fairly big denomination (#1). However, we are congregationalists. We love freedom of interpretation. If churches are allowed to have catch-phrases ours it "No Creed but Christ." As to the higher-ups, we have Regional offices but they mainly serve as a resource (I believe). If you need more information, I can give it to you. I just don't want to feel like I am trying to promote my denomination.

State of Georgia Website
National Website

~Irish

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Astaril
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I took an entire university course a few years ago just on the history and philosophy of the Anglican Church. While the history facts have faded from mind, I do clearly recall all the open-minded philosophy which allows for enormous amounts of interpretation. (For instance, the Eucharist: literal? symbolic? Ehhhh, they're not really sure so they'll let you kind of make your own choice.) Unless things have changed in the last few years, the innate openness to interpretations is one of the things that is (or was?) threatening to destroy the organization of the church itself. If you like, I can dig up the essays I wrote for that class if you want some basic facts or a bibliography, unless you've decided on the Methodists already. [Smile]
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Astaril
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Also, I don't know much about it at all, but would the Unitarian church work? Or is it not quite 'Christian' enough? I *think* it would fulfill everything else...
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Belle
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Hmmm...the Christian & Missionary Alliance might be a good fit.
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TL
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Okay, now we're talking. I will read up on all of your suggestions!

Avin, thanks for the detailed information there -- I have a couple of questions. (Anyone can answer these if you happen to know).

Is "rector" a proper title? Should it be capitalized? How would members of the religion refer to him? "Rector Smith?" "The Rector?" "Father?" even? Or is the title informal, unused? Maybe they just call him by his first name, I don't know ... (forgive my uneducatednessness.)

Can you tell me anything more about the vestry? How many members might be in such a group? What sorts of decisions might they be involved in making? Are they paid? Do they have titles? Is there a standard structure for the vestry followed by every congregation, or is every congregation different?

Who else might be paid by the church? And would they be paid like anybody else working a regular job? Meaning: a bi-weekly paycheck? Any idea where the money comes from? Do they pass around a collection plate or are members asked to pay a tithing, like in the LDS faith? Where, then, does that money go? Into the local church or back into the diocese?

----------------------------------------------

Irish, is the DOC the kind of church that might have a branch in a small town somewhere? By congregationalists, do you mean you believe in local control over your churches, including the content taught therein?

Who is the main person in charge of a local congregation? Is he called a Priest, a minister, what? Does he receive a salary? Is there any kind of governing council that works with him locally, like Avin's description of a vestry? Do members actually use the phrase "No creed but Christ" when speaking to each other?

What is a typical Sunday church-meeting like?

Is there anything else you can tell me about the Regional offices?

-----------------------------------------------

Tom, I personally believe that every human being has the opportunity to live with God in his or her life, regardless of their religion, and it is that perspective from which I am writing this story. My character is not a prophet, but he has a chance to be an instrument in the service of God, and he takes it.

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TomDavidson
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Well, heck, make him a Unitarian, then. I can think of few things that would shock most Unitarians more than suddenly realizing that they're an instrument of God. [Wink] j/k
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Will B
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TL, you might think of some nondenominational churches. Since they've got no denomination, there's nobody higher up to rein in the preacher, and in some cases I've heard ex-congregants complain that the preacher controlled too much, so that seems to (sometimes) fit the bill.

DOC: we have them around my small city. I've never seen one in a tiny town. Our college's (DOC) chaplain says that there are Jewish Disciples of Christ, that is, non-Messianic, people who reject Christ and Christianity but are "Disciples of Christ." So it would violate #7.

Another idea: Charismatic Episcopal Church. It doesn't do the Roman authority thing, and was recently formed from Charismatic congregations gone high-church (so you'll likely get #10). http://www.iccec.org/index1.html I can't confirm the congregation-independence aspect.

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Noemon
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quote:
Didn't really want to admit it being a story, since this is the regular part of hatrack, not the writer's area.
TL, this being the regular part of Hatrack just means that you can put virtually anything on the table, including research into something for a story you're writing.
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Avin
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To answer as many of your questions as I can:

- Is "rector" a proper title? Should it be capitalized?

I think it's usually capitalized when used as a title, see here for examples of its use: http://www.ascensionpittsburgh.org/cota/to_do_and_to_know.htm

However, I think you can also use the word in a generic sense ("a rector") and not have to capitalize it, but I'm not too sure.

- How would members of the religion refer to him? "Rector Smith?" "The Rector?" "Father?" even? Or is the title informal, unused? Maybe they just call him by his first name, I don't know ... (forgive my uneducatednessness.)

This varies quite diversely depending on the congregation and people individually. I have been a part of a congregation where everyone almost universally called him "Father David" (David being his first name), many congregations where I referred to the rector just by his first name, one where I've had a friend call him "Dr. McGlynn" (because he had a D.Min degree). I think the most common is just the first name, but you can have a lot of flexibility here, where some congregants call him one thing and others call him something else. Note that it can also be a woman, and I haven't had the experience of seeing what people call female rectors.

- Can you tell me anything more about the vestry? How many members might be in such a group? What sorts of decisions might they be involved in making? Are they paid? Do they have titles? Is there a standard structure for the vestry followed by every congregation, or is every congregation different?

The vestry is usually an elected body from the congregation members. They are not paid, and don't have titles except for the "Warden," of which there can be more than one (Senior Warden and Junior Warden). Other than that this will probably also vary from congregation to congregation, including the roles of each, how they are elected/for how long, etc. In one church I have been to, the Senior Warden was actually chosen by the rector whereas the Junior Warden was elected from the other members of the Vestry. I think most financial decisions are typically given to the Vestry, as is deciding who staff members are, and probably also about what programs the congregation runs. However, the church I am in now, I am actually a member of the "vestry" (term used rather loosely) despite having never been elected, and don't really have any "official" say at all other than getting together on a regular basis with the other vestry members and Rector and discussing and planning anything and everything in general, with the Rector having final say (although he usually goes with whatever the consensus is if there are disagreements).

- Who else might be paid by the church? And would they be paid like anybody else working a regular job? Meaning: a bi-weekly paycheck? Any idea where the money comes from? Do they pass around a collection plate or are members asked to pay a tithing, like in the LDS faith? Where, then, does that money go? Into the local church or back into the diocese?

You might have assisting priests, secretaries, administrative assistants, deacons, cooks/kitchen workers, janitors, or youth leaders on the payroll. The money can come from either the congregants (usually the case), diocesian grants (often the case with new churches, churches that work with the poor, or ones that do special ministries), or from outside grants for specific ministries. My current church uses all three (it is new, ministers to the poor, and runs specific low cost community programs, so we get grants for all sorts of things as well as money from us, the congregants - however the only person we officially have on staff as a paid position is our rector). Offerings can be collected privately, mailed in, or at an optional collection plate that is passed around during the service (every Episcopal church I have been to does so, even though it is not an official part of the liturgy), usually in the middle of the service during the time of the "Offering." Note that the "Offering" liturgically does not mean the money that is collected, but rather refers to the hearts of the people present being prepared as an offering to God. Speaking of liturgy, you might want to peruse the Book of Common Prayer at http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/. Note that ECUSA uses a different prayer book than the Anglican Church in England, for instance, uses, although they are both essentially modified contemporary language versions of the original English versions archived there. Generally, Sunday worship services use liturgy for the Eucharist (Holy communion) which is taken from mixing and matching different options for the different parts of the service. Also note that there are liturgical seasons, which may be observed to different extents: highly liturgical churches may put great emphasis on what liturgical season it is, changing the service itself dramatically, but "low church" settings may almost completely ignore them.

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Avin
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Oh, regarding where the money goes: other than salaries, there are building expenses, church programs (such as youth groups, outreach), and missions. Money can also go to the diocese, and to the national church, however given the current state of affairs in ECUSA this is not necessarily the case. I think my diocese currently diverts all funds away from the national church, in fact.
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IrishAphrodite19
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We would definitely have churches in small towns. DOC churches tend to be on the small side, with bigger congregations being the exception. How small is your town going to be?

Our churches are set up where they are run by a board that is elected by the church, the minister is also a member of this board. Above the board there is the Regional Office and then the National Office. When deciding what exactly goes on in individual churches, the board is pretty much the final word. The Regional office helps when a church needs a new minister and is having dificulty locating one or needs new ideas because it is "dying" as a congregation. It also helps run our summer camps, state-wide senior programs, and other things like that that individual churches are not as effective running. The National Office just serves as a bigger extention of the Regional Office.

I'm not sure what you mean by control of content taught, but we do have control over sermon content and Sunday School materials. Usually someone from the congregation voluteers to teach one of the various Sunday School classes and they, with help from the head of the Sunday School department, decide what they will cover while they are teaching. However, that is only how my church does it.

The main person in charge of the congregation in terms of spirituality is the minister. But in terms of the buisness of the church and all that hooplah, there is the board that I mentioned earlier and all its members. The minister does receive a salary, though it is my understanding that it is not a large sum.

I got the phrase "No Creed but Christ" from my parents because it is an easy way to sum up our faith. When explaining what the DOC church is that phrase is pretty much the Cliffnotes version. When someone would ask my folks what their church stood for, they would always say that line at some point because it it true, simple and people always remember it. I assume they got it from somewhere else, but I can't say for sure. Basically it comes from the fact that the DOC church, as a whole, only asks that you accept that Jesus was the Son of God and died for our sins. The rest is between you and God and should come from prayer, study, and fellowship.

A typical church service is similar to an Anglican service, I belive, if you have been to one. However, the order of worship can change, (again) depending on the church. Most start out with announcements, a song, and the procession of the minister, the choir, and the acolyte. The acolyte is usually a child in the church who brings in a candle to light 2+ candles in the front of the sanctuary symbolizing bringing in the light of Christ. Then there is a litany, more singing, a prayer for the people, offering, Doxology, possibly a soloist, communion (every Sunday), the Lord's Prayer, children's moment, Scripture, Sermon, song, litany, benediction, short song, the acolyte and the minister process out with the light (symbolizing taking the light of Christ into the world) and it's over. At least that's a vauge outline of how it goes.

I hope that answers your questions. Sadly, I am not that well versed in the workings of the church outside of my chruch, but once my dad gets home tonight I can get more answers if you need them.

Will B, what college do you go to? Are you sure they are Disciples of Christ (Christian Church) people? Because it seems kind of odd to me that there are Jewish Disciples of Christ who reject Christ, and yet Christ is the only thing the demonination agrees on...

~Irish

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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
Certainly it does. Why else would anyone spread the Evil Atheist Propaganda (tm), if they weren't getting paid for it? The Devil is strong on Earthly rewards, you know.
That's just wrong on so many levels
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Bokonon
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I forgot to give the UCC web site:

http://www.ucc.org/

You can find others with a basic Google search.

In the Congregationalist stream of the UCC (there are others of a more Presbyterian polity) the church is the congregation. They can hire/fire ministers as they see fit. The minister is not actually a member of the church, though they sit on the "diaconate" board, which is the committee that helps organize the social and religious projects for the church (in my church growing up they had a separate "trustee" board, which handled the money for the running of the church; I don't think you could have been on both at the same time).

While in the UCC there are conferences, and a Synod, they are mostly for clergy benefits administration, or to help pool greater support for larger causes. The national church is official set up as speaking "to" but not "for" the local church. That is, what they do isn't necessarily in the name of every church. They are their own congregation. Their only real difference is that they help organize and administrate things at the national level.

In the Congregationalist tradition the minister is usually called "Reverend", or the "minister". The members of the diaconate board are deacons, are usually the ushers and helpers of the minister in a service (helping to pass communion or offering plates). They are still just lay members ofthe church. Anything vital to the church (budget, new minister, etc) are voted on by a quorum (as defined by the local church) of congregation members.

-Bok

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TL
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Thanks Bok, I really appreciate it.
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