posted
I didn't want to hijack Eaquae's thread, but just had to explore this further.
I have always pretty much believed in a "clockwork" God. I could never justify worshipping a God that caused suffering, bit individual or widespread, as an intentional part of a plan. Since my son's death I have come to believe that fervently. I could not praise a God that intentionally took my child from me to teach me, or any other person, a lesson. I would not want that lesson. I would reject that lesson and reject that God. I believe terrible things happen because God gives us: 1) Free will and 2) A predictable world with natural order.
Eh, those are my thoughts, incoherent and possible offensive to some.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I agree that the way things are is largely a product of the underlying rules and that those rules have their own justification for death and suffering. These things benefit 'species' but not individuals. However I also think that this evolution is guided by the 'Hand of God' if you will allow the phrase.
Meaning and Justice and Reason are human artifacts of value and purpose to us, therefore we seek them and recognize them and create them when we can. If you cannot find reason or meaning in your son's death then find it elsewhere or create it if you need it. As you have already guessed a loving God would not punctuate a sentence with the death of child, so it is doubtful that he/she killed your kid to make you stop smoking or some such.
We find patterns in the world around us and create them because our brain has evolved to do so for good reason. They are helpful and they promote survival when recognized.
Perhaps you need to find out the habits and behaviors of Meaning to successfully hunt it? Where does it live? What does it eat? When is it most active and where?
posted
One thing I find a bit funny about people today is there need for a completely good and kind god. That somehow even though we are not nice as humanity, that our creator would be perfectly kind and would never do anything bad to us. The Ancient Norse believed the opposite if anything, not to mention the Greeks.
That and the world is anything but entirely predictable, not to mention that the natural order of things means that some things die while others survive. I've had a good number of friends and family die, more than a few were violent deaths. Do I honestly believe they were killed to teach some kind of lesson, no I think they got killed because another human being set up that situation. Now that does teach me a lesson, but it has nothing to do with the reason. We seem to have this need to always seek higher answers for every situation that happens to us, but seem to find the down to earth logical answers.. dirty in some way.
I'm very sorry to hear that your son was taken from this world early in life rather than in old age. The thing is you need not blame yourself, god, or much of anything else but perhaps what took him, whatever that might have been. That and it is sadly a fact of life that many of us die sooner rather than later, all we can do is is enjoy that persons life as much as we possibly can while they are here. Perhaps that is a good lesson, if any, to take out of the whole experience. Do not mourn a persons death but celebrate what little life they did have.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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quote: One thing I find a bit funny about people today is there need for a completely good and kind god.
This is not a modern idea, people have been arguing about the goodness of God for thousands of years, and whether He's "perfectly good" (whatever that means.)
quote: Do not mourn a persons death but celebrate what little life they did have.
Good advice, generally, Black Fox, and a good post.
But romany's kid was a late-term miscarriage, so he had a very short life indeed to celebrate.
I'm not trying to come down on you, you expressed sympathy for her loss, just FYI.
posted
In answer to the thread title, I have searched for years for meaning in suffering and evil, and have yet to find any. It's the main reason I'm agnostic, I can't believe an all-powerful God would create a world with such omnipresent suffering and evil.
During coverage of the upcoming LiveAid, an aid worker mentioned that 30,000 kids starve to death or die of treatable disease every day in Africa. Every day.
I'm generally pretty jaded and unshockable at this point, but last night on TV I saw a crazy boyfriend throw a baby in a carseat out of a moving car during a police chase.
This managed to shock me.
Moments later, the nutcase who did it had a fatal 100mph head-on crash, so maybe there's karma, anyway.
posted
No answers. I suspect if we knew the meaning and reason behind the bad things in our lives, we would have a lot fewer problems overall. But, we don't and we can't. I think there's a vast difference between belief and acceptance when it comes to this question of whether God permits bad things to happen in our lives and that there really is reason and purpose to it.
Overall, I end up clinging to hope, because my ability to understand and accept is too limited to allow me to build strong faith in this area. All I have to offer, then, is my HOPE that it all does have meaning and purpose.
And the offer of whatever comfort and solace I can give -- poor as that may be.
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posted
I feel that there is a lesson to be learned from everything, but I don't believe that God does the type of message that BC was mentiong...
It is never that specific, and I don't think that he takes children from us to "teach" us any specific message, but rather that he gives us them (no matter for how short a time) to teach us about love.
As far as general bad things happening, I think that there are things we need to experience as humans to prepare us for the next stage in our journey, and some of that requires pain. Not that the pain is inflicted on us on purpose, but in order for us to progress we have to be able to make our own choices...and deal with disapointment and loss.
But I don't think that people are specifically singled out for lessons like this. It is more that he created this world and allows us our freedom, but nothing comes without cost. The cost of our free will and independance is that there is pain and suffereing as well, because we don't always chose right.
Once again, that isn't case specific...choice had nothing to do with your loss, of course.
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posted
This is the very reason why I have so much trouble believing in God. Nothing can really justify this much suffering and pain. Add that to the belief in hell and I tug at the leash like a wild animal. The illogic of it all is overwhelming. So, I came to the conclusion that this sort of suffering is the weather of things because a God that punishes people with suffering, then sends them to hell for an eternity is too hard to swallow.
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posted
I believe suffering exists not because God causes it specifically to happen to us, but because that's the way things have to be for things to exist.
There's no such thing as a one-sided coin. Opposition must happen.
I believe God is aware of all things, but in the LDS view that doesn't mean he causes everything.
Some things happen because that's the way natural law goes. Sickness as well as health, destruction as well as growth, death as well as life.
I miss the family members who've died so very much. I understand a little bit of the pain of losing a loved one.
Jesus talked a lot about this, as did Lehi. God is not a respecter of persons. Good and bad things can happen to both the wicked and the righteous without it being "God's Will" that someone died, or got sick, or poor, etc.
Many things are the result of living in a universe that requires opposites.
If God truly was the cruel puppetmaster/bully figure who determined everything that happens to everybody, I would not love or worship him.
He's not. I think he would step in an spare us all suffering, if it wouldn't take away our agency.
This is just my view point, of course.
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posted
Actually, if the god of the Old Testament exists as described, he is just the sort who finds happiness in pulling the wings off flies. I much prefer an uncaring universe; at least it isn't actively evil.
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quote:I could never justify worshipping a God that caused suffering, bit individual or widespread, as an intentional part of a plan.
quote:I can't believe an all-powerful God would create a world with such omnipresent suffering and evil.
quote:Nothing can really justify this much suffering and pain. [. . .] I came to the conclusion that this sort of suffering is the weather of things because a God that punishes people with suffering, then sends them to hell for an eternity is too hard to swallow.
No matter how many times I hear arguments like these, they always manage to baffle me. Maybe you wish the entire world could consist of gumdrops and sunshine, but does that mean God is a loathsome figure for not having made things the way you want them? Do you know what's best for us better than He does?
Maybe God allows bad things to happen in a general sense because without the existence of "bad", "good" is a meaningless concept. But maybe He doesn't actively cause individual bad things. Maybe individual bad things happen because of a combination of human free will, natural forces, and pure random chance. If He stepped in and prevented every single bad thing from happening, that would eliminate the duality that allows us to appreciate good, but that doesn't mean He's stepping in and causing bad things either.
Besides, how do you know He doesn't step in and prevent millions of bad things from happening every day?
I say all this as an agnostic, of course. I'm not defending God as a believer, and I have no stake in whether you accept or reject Him, either as a being or as a concept. I'm simply pointing out that maybe it's naive and shallow to refuse to worship God because you want the whole world to be nice, and He understands why it can't be. Maybe the reason He didn't consult you is that He knows what He's doing.
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posted
I believe that God wants what's best for us. Some bad things happen just because they do. Some happen because of our own or others' actions. Some things are truly random. But no matter what, I believe God can turn it all back to His purposes in the end. Satan works in the hearts of men, yes, and some just like to do evil, maybe. But I don't think Satan is as powerful as God. God can make all things bearable to us, even the unbearable, and there will be justice when we die as well as mercy. There is a purpose to life, and things get in the way, but the things that hinder us can be turned by a loving God into things that can help us, if we let Him help us and work in our hearts.
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posted
That is what bothers me... The God and Satan thing. Why let Satan do so many evil things? What is the point? It makes no sense to me.
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posted
Or he might just be a cruel, all-powerful tyrant who created us to amuse himself. I doubt the people burning in hell are thankful to be created. I know I did not ask to be born. Reading the book of Job, it is very obvious God is an asshole whose "greater purpose" is to make himself look good in front of Satan.
And actually, who cares if "good" is a meaningless concept? If things were good all the time, we may not have that word in our language but life would still be enjoyable. I view the we need bad to appreciate good argument to be a cop-out. We know God does not step in and prevent millions of bad things every day because an all-powerful, benevolent God would not just randomly pick a few lucky lottery winners for the day. God is a loathsome figure for creating me without my permission in anything less than a world of gumdrops and sunshine. Or in my case, ecstacy and heroin. And I am one of the lucky ones, because I have a get out of hell free card. Can't beat him so I reluctantly join him.
God lets Satan do so many evil things because he does not care. I personally have stepped in to stop someone from doing "evil things" when I was pretty sure he could kick my ass. Well, God could kick Satan's ass any time he wanted, but chooses to let him continue for millenia. One day, he says he will get fed up with Satan and actually do something about it. Everyone before that will thank him, because hey- hell sucks.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I'm so sorry about your loss, Romanylass. I believe that many of our sorrows are temporary and we will find comfort in knowing that explanations and joy await us. I just read about Job last night. Here is one paragraph that might be helpful: "Job, while he did not understandd why God permitted his affliction, would not judge the Lord nor lose his faith in Him,. God was his salvation, and Job trusted in Him alone. Job saw his afflictions in perspective. As Pres. Spencer W. Kimball said, "If we looked at mortality as the whole of existence, then pain, sorrow, failure, and short life would be calamity. But if we look upon life as an eternal thing stretching far into the premortal past and on into the eternal post-death future, then all happenings may be put in proper perspective." "If joy and peace and rewards were instantaneously given the doer of good, there could be no evil -- all would do good but not because of the rightness of doing good. There would be no test of strength, no development of character, no growth of powers, no free agency, only satanic controls." I hope it helps to know your little one is happy and cared for and that you can be with him someday.
Posts: 216 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:I doubt the people burning in hell are thankful to be created.
See, I don't believe there are any people "burning in hell". There are people who suffer agonies of guilt, but people don't literally "burn in hell" in my conception of the universe.
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posted
I just want to say that I liked what Verily had to say. I thought he brought up some interesting points.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
It took me a bit of digging to find the exact quote, but I like this story. I should note that I post this in reference to suffering in general, not to any individual's particular example.
quote: A poor farmer's horse ran off into the country of the barbarians. All his neighbors offered their condolences, but his father said, "How do you know that this isn't good fortune?" After a few months the horse returned with a barbarian horse of excellent stock. All his neighbors offered their congratulations, but his father said, "How do you know that this isn't a disaster?" The two horses bred, and the family became rich in fine horses. The farmer's son spent much of his time riding them; one day he fell off and broke his hipbone. All his neighbors offered the farmer their condolences, but his father said, "How do you know that this isn't good fortune?" Another year passed, and the barbarians invaded the frontier. All the able-bodied young men were conscripted, and nine-tenths of them died in the war. Thus good fortune can be disaster and vice versa. Who can tell how events will unfold? --The Huai Nan Tzu
I have a lot of examples of this sort of thing from my own life. You need the good and the bad, not just for comparison's sake, but to grow as a person. (Edit: That last bit is not to say that this is a reason for good or bad things to exist, merely to say that bad is also somewhat good.)
1. Danzig rocks. 2. The belief in God does not seem to me one based on a reasonable premise. If you start from an empty base of assumptions, then try to reason your way to God, you will become lost and end in Lalala land. Go ahead. I don't believe that logic and religion are reconcilable. There will always be some emotion involved.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
As it happened, I watched a Voyager episode just now, partly on this subject. (Flames about Trek to /dev/null, please!) The holographic doctor made a holographic family, so he could experience that part of life. It was exactly what he would have wanted: idyllic, loving, respectful, and nothing bad happened.
Other crewmates challenged him to make it less predictable, so he allowed the program to be altered. The son was rebellious, the wife uncooperative, and the daughter wanted to play a dangerous sport. Things kept going wrong. Then the daughter hit her head. When she was dying, he turned off the program. Who needs all this pain? (He came back to it later.)
So: if you were designing a holo-life, could you make it worthwhile -- interesting enough to live -- without suffering?
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I hesitate to add this, but something reminded me of a great book Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl.
I normally wouldn't suggest a book in response to such a heartfelt expression of pain and sorrow, but you also raised a great philosophical issue that I think Frankl handles very well from his own personal experience.
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posted
I don't think about religion all that much, but the fact is, we can't prove that there is a god, or that there isn't a god, or that he/she/it is or is not benevolent. Because if we can prove any of these things then there is no room for faith, which is essential to any theology.
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posted
Will, do you play the Sims? My husband loves the Sims 2. (I don't get it. Why would you want to control people doing the basic tasks of life when you could be doing them? ) Anyway, he always has the most fun when they're having problems.
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posted
I'm just replying to the topic title here, not having read much.
I don't think there is a purpose to specific instances of suffering. We suffer in this life no matter what- though I guess it can be avoided slightly by just not loving anyone. But the only way out of this life is through some kind of accident or painful disease so if we are going to suffer regardless, we may as well love people along the way in my opinion at this point in time.
Okay, I went back and read the first post.
I don't believe in a clockwork God either. But I believe that God doesn't worry about death as much as we do. There are worse things that can happen, like coming to a state where we think nothing of hurting others (deliberately).
This sets up an interesting quandary. If being harmful to others is one of the worst things we can come to and killing our love ones harms us, and God has ultimate power over life and death (in some cases, certainly the ones I'm considering here) how can he be considered good? But then, just because something is painful doesn't mean it actually harms us. The dope pusher who tempts someone to try heroin is actually taking away their pain while harming them.
It's funny, I was trying to read Treason again this weekend, and he talks about pain and how they seem not to feel it but they do feel it, they just don't fear it because they know they will get better. I don't know how the book goes on past the entry into the K.K. forest (I hate detailed descriptions of journeys). But I think the observation is relevant here. Pain is feared because the creature assumes it is permanent damage. This applies to emotional pain as well as physical pain.
But I am still here. "I got better"
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:See, I don't believe there are any people "burning in hell". There are people who suffer agonies of guilt, but people don't literally "burn in hell" in my conception of the universe.
See, I do. I will admit the LDS theology is a pretty nice one for nonbelievers, though. As for guilt, I have it before and will again. It is bad, but it gets better, and was never crippling to begin with. If that is hell, fine, I take back what I said in my previous post, but my understanding of hell is that it sucks a lot more than guilt.
quote: So: if you were designing a holo-life, could you make it worthwhile -- interesting enough to live -- without suffering?
For me? Yes I could. For everyone else? Maybe, maybe not; lots of people seem to be masochists. Or maybe they are right in that you do need bad to compare to good. Fine. At the beginning of the simulation, you get a kidney stone. After that, there is a basis for comparison. I remember my past suffering; I do not need to suffer any more to enjoy the present or future.
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posted
Thanks, Pixiest One! Ketchup Queen, no, I haven't played the Sims. It sounds dead dull to me too! But I do like writing, and there, I control people's lives, not always to their betterment.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Will, do you play the Sims? My husband loves the Sims 2. (I don't get it. Why would you want to control people doing the basic tasks of life when you could be doing them? ) Anyway, he always has the most fun when they're having problems.
I have no idea why I like that game so much. It does have a way of sucking up time like a vacuum. Still, there's something fun about it. About creating people, making them get together and get jobs. Perhaps because it is easier to control than real life in a way. Or, maybe I love when my people in the game have babies and they turn out looking like their parents like how all of my Moshinskys have turquise eyes or how Leporello's son has white hair like he has. But, sometimes the people are a bit rebellions and do what they want to do anyway, like try to take a bath when they are about to starve. At least I don't torment my Sims. Even though they are not real people, it's still cruel to starve them or lock them up in rooms alone...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
No disrespect for anyone's loss, or pain...
There may be no God.
The lessons to be learned may be your own; your attempt to find meaning in a world without any great or guiding spirit.
There may be no great "lesson plan" for each and every one of us. Things just "are." We do with them what we can.
Of course, without a God, there's likely no hell, no punishment for your "sins" other than what you, other people, and society impose on you. There is no all-powerful being out to get you, teach you a lesson, or anything.
EI JT,
Children can experience great joy without having experienced great suffering. Some may experience great suffering without experiencing any joy at all.
A man who is tortured for years may experience joy at seeing the sunrise before he dies. A person whose worst pain was being rejected by his girlfriend at the prom may have a life otherwise full of joy.
Pain also means you're hurt. You can still be alive and not have pain.
posted
I thought I should point out that not everyone gets better. I know someone whose infant died of SIDS while in the crib next to the bed where they were napping. This person struggled with obsessive behavior for decades and counting. They had a difficult time resting, it seemed.
So it's not a simple matter of "time heals". That is why I feel turning my anxieties over to a hope that things would not always be as they are was important. I didn't really believe in God for years. When I had another child, things got worse and not better as I feared for the new baby's life.
You know what is funny is the movie Signs, where in the middle the ex-preacher is saying there is no God. It's not no God that's the problem. It's a God that other people say has helped them but who apparently didn't help you.
I still don't say that there is a grand cosmic reason my son died, and would think to myself that someone was speaking out of turn if they claimed there was.
Two years to the month after my son died, my sister lost her only son in eerily similar circumstances. Not the sort of improbability one usually wishes for.
Anyway, when I had another child I realized I couldn't manage my negative feelings that I had repressed over the years, and had to turn them over to God and start to trust him bit by bit.
I don't know if it has been the case with you, but other women I know who have lost children but had other children haven't had the luxury I did to completely wallow in the loss and self-pity and rage. So I may just sound alien to you. I've almost had to recover from the way I grieved more than the cause of grief itself.
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