posted
Islam has one of the largest religious followings in the world. This is an irrefutable fact. But, throughout most of the world their are "Muslims" attacking things people hold dear for whatever reason they can come up with. These "fundamentalists" pervert and distort the Great Quran which is at the very heart of the Islamic World. Time and time again, they blow up other people in the name of All Knowing Allah. Why don't the millions of great and admirable Muslim people fight this horrific perversion of their faith? If it has happened, why don't we here about it?
I know if people started citing the Book of Mormon as a reason to wage a barbaric war on innocent people, I would do everything in my power to quell that thinking. It's starting to really get to me. Get up and fight these people that say they speak on your behalf!
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posted
Perhaps they fight it just as we all fight Americans trying to prevent people being held captive for the longest periods possible without fair trials and subjected to the worst conditions we feel we can reasonably get away with.
Or perhaps they fight it just as well as people in the UK fought against the often extreme violence between Catholics and Protestants on Ire.
Or perhaps they fight it just as well as the Jewish people fought the economic subjugation of the Palestinians.
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Perhaps they fight it just as we all fight Americans trying to prevent people being held captive for the longest periods possible without fair trials and subjected to the worst conditions we feel we can reasonably get away with.
Or perhaps they fight it just as well as people in the UK fought against the often extreme violence between Catholics and Protestants on Ire.
Or perhaps they fight it just as well as the Jewish people fought the economic subjugation of the Palestinians.
This argument is completely illogical; the parallels you draw are not parallels at all. On the one hand, we have one group of Muslims murdering children in the name of their religion, while other Muslims protest that their religion is one of peace, yet do not seem to be doing much to prove that to the world; and on the other hand, we have various groups of people who may or may not have allowed general wrong-doing to occur on their watch.
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quote: I'm speaking to the people that agree with what the Islamic Leaders say when they tell us the Quran is a book that promotes peace.
Ah. See, it sounded like you were talking to Muslims. Which means that you could have pretty much started with a "Hey, Amira!"
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posted
Why shouldn't he be talking about Muslims? If someone is doing atrocious acts in the name of your religion, shouldn't you speak out that they don't speak for you? Shouldn't the religious leaders speak out that they do not support the actions?
I thought THAT was his question...but I see now it's more "PC" because we wouldn't want to offend anybody.
quote:I know if people started citing the Book of Mormon as a reason to wage a barbaric war on innocent people, I would do everything in my power to quell that thinking. It's starting to really get to me. Get up and fight these people that say they speak on your behalf!
People traditionally cite Christianity all the time as a reason to wage barbaric wars on innocent people. Certain extremists are even using Christianity right now as a justification for starting an all out war with Islam. Because as a LDS you are also Christian, what do you do to stop that from happening? It seems to me that the Christian response is pretty much identitical to the Muslim response - complain as loudly as possible that that is not what your religion is about.
posted
But Tom, this is the most serious board I post on. It would be hugely inappropriate on Jon's or Mike's website since the audience there is a lot smaller and my chances of a rebuttal are a lot greater here.
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quote: Why don't the millions of great and admirable Muslim people fight this horrific perversion of their faith?
Well, in the US you do hear plenty of Muslims fighting against it. I think what you want is to hear more protests from within Arabic countries.
I think that doesn't happen as much as you'd like because of politics, not religion. Generally speaking, they HATE us. They hate the way the West continually tries to interfere in the internal politics of their countries. And they feel powerless to stop it. If radical minorities are actually doing something, the majority might not agree with it all, but they probably feel like finally, somebody is standing up to the West on their behalf.
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reader: you thoroughly missed the point. In each case there are protesters, but that doesn't mean things stop. And also, even the protesters are generally defensive against outsiders.
I think you'll find there is considerable outcry at many actions of muslim terrorists from muslims, both in the "western world" and elsewhere. However, I think you'll also find they're not particularly confident in the west being all that much better.
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posted
I don't think it's that simple, Laura. I have read several accounts of people visiting Muslim countries that say that everyone they met deplored 9/11 and other terrorist violence. My guess is, the REAL terrorists don't want to be in a position to meet any Westerners; they don't want to be polluted, or they don't want to have to recognize the humanity of a Westerner.
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posted
I'm sure it's not that simple. But I think that's probably a part of it. I don't think that "everyone they met deplored 9/11" sounds very accurate unless they were only meeting only a select group of people. I'd believe that they only heard negative things about 9/11 presented to them. And I'm certain you're right that terrorists isolate themselves from the West.
Another possibility that sprung to mind is lack of education. What's the literacy rate over there? I don't know, but I believe it's pretty low. If you have somebody people trust saying that the Quran says "blank", and the people can't read, they'll believe it. Which isn't to say the person is lying, they probably legitimately believe that from their own interpretation.
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you'll have trouble getting much of a rise out of someone like me on this issue. Extreme reactions to this sort of thing are exactly what will cause MORE terrorism, not less. "You maintain what you oppose." I'm not saying that the war in Iraq is wrong, necessarily. I think we all take responsibility for our own actions, and reap the consequences, eventually. I don't believe in the good intentions of a person like Dick Cheney, nor do I believe in the usefulness of letting Osama bin Laden and others run loose. The biggest fool is the one who hates Osama or Dick and loves the other.
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posted
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that terrorists are in any way justified. But pleas like this thread seem to ignore the fact that terrorists don't evolve in isolation. They are recruited from everyday people in those countries. If we want to stop terrorism, I think it's important to understand what drives people to it instead of simply labeling them "pure, mindless evil".
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quote:If we want to stop terrorism, I think it's important to understand what drives people to it instead of simply labeling them "pure, mindless evil".
Who labeled them that?
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Bush labeled them "pure evil" and I frequently feel like that's a popular attitude. I'm sorry I attributed it to your post, since you clearly did not say that.
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posted
First of all I don't think terrorism can be stopped outright and forever. That's just the nature of the beast.
However I do agree with Amanecer as far as having to understand the problem better in order to come up with better solutions. Fighting fire with fire only ends up making the flame bigger.
But I really think it's a little bit mroe complicated than just them hating the US, I think there's quite a bit more to it than that.
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posted
Oh, Bush didn't say they were mindless, but he does say things like this:
quote:The terrorists are fighting freedom with all their cunning and cruelty because freedom is their greatest fear - and they should be afraid, because freedom is on the march.
quote:Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.
quote:The terrorists who attacked us -- and the terrorists we face -- murder in the name of a totalitarian ideology that hates freedom, rejects tolerance, and despises all dissent.
quote:We have more work to do, and there will be tough moments that test America's resolve. We're fighting against men with blind hatred -- and armed with lethal weapons -- who are capable of any atrocity. They wear no uniform; they respect no laws of warfare or morality.
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: reader: you thoroughly missed the point. In each case there are protesters, but that doesn't mean things stop. And also, even the protesters are generally defensive against outsiders.
I think you'll find there is considerable outcry at many actions of muslim terrorists from muslims, both in the "western world" and elsewhere. However, I think you'll also find they're not particularly confident in the west being all that much better.
Okay, I see what you're getting at now. You're right; I did miss the point. I thought that your statements were meant sarcastically - that is, I thought your statements were saying that the Americans/UKers/Israelis were NOT standing up - significantly - against whatever the problem in question, so why should Muslims be held any more responsible? But I see now that you were saying that just as Americans/UKers/Israelis may protest against various actions and yet not succeed in preventing them, so too the Muslims.
Personally, I don't feel that the Muslims (as a whole) are doing enough to stand up against what's happening - they may officially condemn terrorist attacks, but practically speaking, they don't do much to crack down on terrorists. But that's just my opinion. Sorry again for misreading your argument.
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posted
Its okay, I do see that reading now and should have protected more against it.
However, I disagree with your feeling. Its calmed down of late, but there used to be regular press releases about our allies in the Islamic world doing things to track down terrorists, for instance.
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posted
scott--that wasn't actually what I meant. I didn't mean to imply that the US government is intentionally allowing bin Laden to run free. I have no idea about that, and I wasn't expressing an opionion in that area. It just didn't cross my mind then.
However, I really find it entertaining that Dick Cheney was such a high muckety-muck at Halliburton and Bechtel before taking office with Bush II. I trust Chenay about as far as I can throw him, if that.
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quote: The terrorists are fighting freedom with all their cunning and cruelty because freedom is their greatest fear - and they should be afraid, because freedom is on the march.
If you changed "freedom" to "the West", I think that's a more accurate sentiment. Do terrorists want freedom in the way we think of it? No, but they do seem to want freedom from us- their coutnries own soveirgnty.
quote: We're fighting against men with blind hatred -- and armed with lethal weapons -- who are capable of any atrocity.
Maybe we should try to not give them so many reasons to hate us. Certainly couldn't hurt.
Wow, I'm coming off very terrorist-loving. Which is not how I feel. They are clearly our enemies and we shouldn't coddle them. Still, I think it's important to understand the consequences of our actions and the causes of theirs.
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posted
Amanecer, I hear that a lot. Perhaps you could enlighten me about why they hate us. Maybe something besides the war that started AFTER the terrorism?
posted
Would you care to tell me when "the terrorism" started, Katarain? I'll take a date, at least a year, or even a decade.
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posted
Heh actually they have a lot of reasons to hate the US. The problems we see right now are only the ripples of problems that have been around for many years. The US certainly hasn't helped and neither has Europe.
No it's not because of the current war but it certainly hasn't helped, all it's done is stirr up the nest causing more angry bees to pour out.
Go on ahead and take a look at their history, it's a lot easier to understand the present conflicts if you have some insight into their past Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Its something that your question rests upon; before I can answer your question I must understand it, and the phrase "AFTER the terrorism" confuses me greatly.
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posted
Well I don't think any of us are sympathethic to them, I abhor their actions and consider terrorists to be at the bottom of the barrel. Taking innocent human lives to "make a point" is abominable.
But to better deal with the problem I think you have to understand it.
Edit: Fugu, I think Katarain is refering to the 9/11 attacks but I could be mistaken.
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posted
fugu, I said that to counteract any arguments that they're committing acts of terrorism because of the war in Iraq, because the war in Iraq started after other terrorist attacks.
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Oh, they are committing acts of terrorism because of the war in Iraq. Also because of other reasons, but Iraq caused a marked increase in terrorist activity. It was a wonderful recruiting tool that we handed to them, in particular in combination with things like the "Axis of Evil" speech, and a wonderful way of justifying violence to themselves and others.
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posted
That's a bunch of bull. If it were true, then the terrorism would have started AFTER either war in Iraq rather than before.
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posted
Katarain, I'm sure there are people here more qualified to answer this question than me, but I do know of a few things we did to make them so mad. Anybody, please correct anything I say that's incorrect.
For centuries, the Middle East was the most technologically advanced area in the world. Then the West had their Industrial Revolution and started looking at the Middle East as a place to colonize. And colonize they did. The West used the Middle East for natural resources and for selling their finished goods, an unequal trade which seriously hurt the Middle East. Then in 1948, the West took away Israel from a people who had had it for centuries, and gave it to the Zionist Jews. Then the Cold War came, and we messed with their internal affairs like crazy. We were ok with supporting, financially and militarily, horrible leaders with no sense of human rights so long as they were anti-communist. Then, in 1991 the Cold War ended. Our intervention in their internal affairs didn't.
To sum up: The West has a history of using the Middle East to meet their own ends regardless of the effects on its people. We refuse to treat them like independent states.
Edited to add: The War in Iraq didn't cause terrorism, but it's certainly not helping stop it.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Katarain, perhaps you neglected to actually read what you called a load of bull:
quote:Oh, they are committing acts of terrorism because of the war in Iraq. Also because of other reasons, but Iraq caused a marked increase in terrorist activity.
That's the first half. Note the lack of the word "only" in the first sentence, and that "marked increase" implies existing terrorist activity beforehand.
posted
Also, I find your odd return to terrorism having a "start" interesting. Terrorism has been going on as long as there has been recorded history, and many of the terrorists have gone down in history as the good guys -- yes, people who intentionally targeted civilians for death.
Terrorism doesn't have "a cause", terrorism has always existed in an incredibly complex web of social stresses, ideological differences, faults and perceived faults, and much much more. You can't just ask "well, why are they so angry" -- in fact, that you so blithely ask the question is part of why many middle eastern people are so angry, that so many of us are ignorant of what our own society has done. The west (including Russia, or at least in back and forths with Russia) has done terrible things in the middle east. We still are, in fact -- I bet you can find many a common person in Afghanistan who would like to know why we have allowed the drug trade there to resume business as usual, at ever-increasing volumes, funding the local warlords who in many cases oppress them as well as, unsurprisingly, terrorists.
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quote: So that's what the terrorists are after? They're fighting on behalf of their governments to be able to function as independent states?
I'm no expert so I really don't feel qualified to answer this. But I'll answer from my own understanding which is probably full of errors. I don't know that they're fighting for their governments specifcially, but maybe more for their nations, for themselves as a people. I think nations, like people, want to be treated with respect. When they instead get bullied, they'll try and stand up to the bully however they can.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Lets say you were a citizen of a small country in a region of small countries. Lets say you already mistrusted America. Lets say American invaded one of your neighbors, and it turned out that the reasons they gave were based on incorrect, shoddily gathered evidence. Nasty as that next door neighbor may have been in the past, the people there are of similar religions and ethnicities, and many of them are dead because of this war.
Out of millions of such people, you don't understand how that would have caused some to become violent, or some of those who were already violent to have become more violent?
Your apparent assumption that the only reasons are logical is problematic.
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quote:But I'll answer from my own understanding which is probably full of errors.
If I start to think this about a thread, I stop posting and read along and do research until I can prove my points.
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quote:But I'll answer from my own understanding which is probably full of errors.
If I start to think this about a thread, I stop posting and read along and do research until I can prove my points.
Well, I was asked to explain the psyche of terrorists. I don't know that anybody other than a terrorist could accurately do that. However, based on research I have already done this is my perception. I welcome any evidence to the contrary.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Or perhaps they fight it just as well as people in the UK fought against the often extreme violence between Catholics and Protestants on Ire.
Nitpick: I'm pretty sure they'd like to see it spelled Eire, so as not to confuse it with the quality in question here.
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