posted
We give 10% of our gross income to our church, and give charitable offerings on top of that. It hasn't hurt our piety in the least. Granted, it is voluntary, but then I'm not sure what your point was to begin with.
Also, all positions within this church are unpaid, even that of head of the congregation. The people freely give of their time and efforts to make the church run. Again, doesn't exactly seem to be hurting piety at all. If anything, it does the opposite.
Without having read the article fugu referenced, I imagine it refers to this sort of thing.
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Those who've read the paper can perhaps confirm or deny the impression I got from the article. It sounds like the theory states that high expectations for behavior (and belief, to a lesser extent) help bond a community together, and provide a valauble social network.
I was also very amused by this paragraph in the article:
quote:What does the pious person get in return for all of his or her time and effort? A church full of passionate members; a community of people deeply involved in one another's lives and more willing than most to come to one another's aid; a peer group of knowledgeable souls who speak the same language (or languages), are moved by the same texts, and cherish the same dreams.
Nothing like any communities I know of. Nope, not at all. (Is Hatrack's civility and fairly stringent self-policing equivalent to the strictness of certain churches?)
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Good article relating politics to religion. You'd think it was biased, but for the most part, it just quotes actual political leaders, so don't be surprised by how crazy it sounds.
posted
I say, do you mind giving your URL a short name, so it doesn't take up more than a screen? And I counted three quotes (admittedly damn scary ones) and a bunch of rhetoric.
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posted
Tell me how to give it a shorter name and i will, and I really don't think the rhetoric is that bad, since most of it is things that are already happening. It is biased, but not as much as some people would like.
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Click the 'URL' button, paste the link address into the popup, press enter, type the short name, press enter again.
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posted
John 6:15 - When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John 18:36 - Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight...But now my kingdom is from another place."
Jesus and his disciples remained neutral from politics and government affairs. If Christianity would have respected and imitated that stance, they would not have fought and killed fellow believers in war. Religion, if following the example of Jesus, is to remain completely separate from politics.
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>>Religion, if following the example of Jesus, is to remain completely separate from politics.
Not exactly. Insomuch as politics mingles with morality, religions have an obligation to put their feet in. 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's,' etc.
[ July 26, 2005, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: >>Religion, if following the example of Jesus, is to remain completely separate from politics.
Not exactly. Insomuch as politics mingles with morality, religions have an obligation to put their feet in. 'Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's,' etc.
...but God's things to God." Means that we are subjects to an earthly government but recognize that God's rulership is absolute. If Jesus felt that religion had a place in politics, he or his disciples would have done so.
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posted
>>If Jesus felt that religion had a place in politics, he or his disciples would have done so.
We have different interpretations of what Jesus' example means for his followers. Are you asserting that just because Jesus never tried to be a scribe, lawyer, pharisee, tax collector, etc., that his followers should avoid service in the government as well?
Similarly, one could assert that since we have no record of Jesus' marriage, neither should his followers marry.
By the same token, recall that Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic law-- his political connection to Jewish law was intimate.
Also, consider his treatment of the woman taken in adultery-- here is the ultimate expression of politics mingling with morality. Roman law decreed that only the Romans could enforce the death penalty; Jewish law demanded the woman's life. Laying aside the fact that the whole scenario was a trap for Jesus, he still took a political stance by NOT stoning her.
Also-- the healing of the Gentile woman, the healing of the lepers (and his admonition that they go to a priest to be declared clean); all these acts had political, social, and theological ramifications.
Finally, keep in mind that Jesus was the 'Son of David,' a title never contested by his opponents, and one he never revoked. (I recognize that there were probably LOTS of men who could fit the title; nontheless, we don't have any extravagantly popular religions devoted to them. ) The title is both geneological, because Jesus could trace his mother's line back to King David, and his adopted father's line to the same source; it was also a political title, marking Jesus as having links to Jewish royalty.
Angio, you've GOT to shorten that link.
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quote:If Jesus felt that religion had a place in politics, he or his disciples would have done so.
In an era when Rome was proclaiming itself as Lord of the world, when coins were minted declaring Caesar Augustus as the son of [a] god, the claim “Jesus is Lord” was profoundly political.
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quote:Are you asserting that just because Jesus never tried to be a scribe, lawyer, pharisee, tax collector, etc., that his followers should avoid service in the government as well?
My assertion is based on the idea that Jesus supports a Divine government that extends beyond national borders and which does not rely on political entities on the earth. I believe his example, in correspondence with his words quoted above, indicate that even though he could have accomplished a great deal by holding an earthly political office, he chose instead to recognize that his rulership was heavenly, not an earthly government.
Granted, this is only my interpretation, so I undertand if we differ in opinions. My point is that I believe that Church and State powers should remain separate. From my perspective here in America, political leaders should not promote a certain religion and religious leaders should not promote certain governments or nations, unless of course your religion has its own nation.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I spoke inexactly; I should have said, 'cost them more than an hour's socialising is worth.' Also, people tend not to notice that kind of cost; if even a small sum of money was involved, I suspect we'd see a right drastic drop.
And BB, I suggest you visit a church in Norway on an average Sunday, count the people there, and divide by the size of the community. You might get some interesting information on how religions die, and repression has nothing to do with it.
I dont need to go to Norway to know how apathy kills churches. If there is one thing I have learned from history its oppression is not as effective as apathy. If the people themselves just stop caring that is FAR more effective then some foreign group of people trying to force you them into not going to say church.
Not to add fuel to your arguement but even counting people at church isnt the best indicator as many go to church out of habit or fear of being rejected by the rest of society. Some go because their entire family goes. These people MIGHT change down the road and understand why church is important, but most of them will not, and might as well not count, as they dont even think about religion during the rest of the week.
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