quote:PITTSBURGH -- A T-ball coach allegedly paid one of his players $25 to hurt an 8-year-old mentally disabled teammate so he wouldn't have to put the boy in the game, police said Friday.
Mark R. Downs Jr., 27, of Dunbar, is accused of offering one of his players the money to hit the boy in the head with a baseball, police said. Witnesses told police Downs didn't want the boy to play in the game because of his disability.
Police said the boy was hit in the head and in the groin with a baseball just before a game, and didn't play, police said.
"The coach was very competitive," state police Trooper Thomas B. Broadwater said. "He wanted to win."
Downs has an unpublished telephone number and couldn't immediately be reached for comment Friday. It was unclear whether he had an attorney.
He was arrested and arraigned Friday on charges including criminal solicitation to commit aggravated assault and corruption of minors. He was released from jail on an unsecured bond.
Pretty darn sickening. I just hope that this behavior hurts this guy's reputation so much that he will no longer be welcome to coach or interact with children anywhere, ever again.
It would be TRULY and UNFORGIVABLY sickening otherwise.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
That's unspeakable. That couldn't have been a competetive league (which require tryouts) if there was a disabled participant. Parents who have their kids in leagues that are just "for fun" like this want their kids to learn fair play and have a fun social experience.
I hope this guy never coaches anything ever again.
Posts: 251 | Registered: Apr 2005
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My gut reaction is that I hope someone lovingly takes him aside and explains to him the error of his ways by breaking both his kneecaps.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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The "man"(and i use the term losely) should have his testicals slowly removed with a butter knife. But thats just my crazy opinion.
Posts: 397 | Registered: Apr 2003
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What's interesting is that at first I thought this guy sounded unusually sick, but then I read the following from five different people:
quote:My gut reaction is that I hope someone lovingly takes him aside and explains to him the error of his ways by breaking both his kneecaps.
quote:...With a baseball
quote:...bat.
quote:I was thinking my bastard sword.
quote:The "man"(and i use the term losely) should have his testicals slowly removed with a butter knife. But thats just my crazy opinion.
And that makes me think that most people in general really are just as capable of sick ideas. The difference between the majority and those few like this coach is a momentary lapse of judgement - something happens that allows crazy gut instincts to be acted upon. I don't understand how that happens, but because I don't understand I have to wonder if it could happen at any given time to anyone...
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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I am unimaginably angered by this - a little bit about that below - and was put off by some of the reactions. But there's a world of difference between the flip, off-the-cuff responses of people responding to this and a calculated act of the kind alleged in the news story.
If this coach is found guilty or admits his guilt and plea-bargains, here is what he did:
1. He decided to eliminate a kid from a game by inflicting bodily harm.
2. He enlisted another child to do this for money, teaching this kid that not only is assault acceptable, so is getting paid for doing it.
It gets worse. According to the longer reports, the "League organizers investigated accusations against Downs before the T-ball season ended earlier this month but could not prove that he did anything wrong."
Odd. According to news reports, the kid who was paid admitted the whole thing to mother of the kid who was allegedly assaulted. The state police found enough proof to press charges. Just what kind of "investigation" was this?
The League has generously said that if he's convicted, he won't be allowed to coach next year.
Caveat - we don't know enough to know if the charges are true, but if they are...
I want to see him serve jail time.
With our without jail time, I want a ban on his professional or volunteer participation in activities involving kids. Being a coach, teacher, etc. isn't a right - it's a position of trust.
And if all this is true, he betrayed the trust of the kid who was injured, the kid he paid, the families of both kids. And I'd also like to think the rest of the team might see him as having betrayed their trust.
Depending on the evidence and outcome, a closer look at the League's alleged "investigation" might be in order as well.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: The difference between the majority and those few like this coach is a momentary lapse of judgement - something happens that allows crazy gut instincts to be acted upon.
It's the something that makes the difference, as I'm sure you're aware. Hatred of someone who inflicts harm on the innocent is more gooderer and understandable than someone who inflicts harm within the parameters Stephen layed out. That is, it's 'reasonable' to feel hatred toward the coach and not reasonable for the coach to feel hatred towards some disabled kid, and actually inflict harm on him, for the purpose of a game where nothing is at stake but pride.
I would further like to point out that I specifically put 'gut reaction' in my post so as to differentiate what I would like to actually see done to him within the legal system. Stephen's ideas on this matter correspond to mine. edit: Maybe. I made a thread a long time a go dealing with torture/physical pain within the legal system as a method of achieving 'good' as compared to the hands-off approach to torture that we are taking now, i.e. dumping someone within a population of sadistic people and basically letting them do what they will to each other.
Be aware that if you respond to this with something like 'Well, who are we to judge? Who's to say whether pride is 'reasonable' or not?', I'm going to ignore it in this instance. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Has anyone stopped to think that there are two injured children in this scenerio?
I have to assume the coach picked the child he KNEW would carryout this violent act. However, now the child is being encouraged to be selfishly violent. We have a sociopath in the making if the parents do not recognize this and reprogram this child. As a parent, I would be questioning why my child actually followed through with this violence. This kid needs serious psychological help!
Does anyone remember the days when kids just went outside and played stickball, baseball, kick the can, and dodge ball for FUN?! This was before a bunch of adults decided to make it into some organized competitive ego feeding insanity.
I'm not saying there was a lack of bullies in the 'old days'. However, now we call them heroes and pay them better than we pay healers, teachers, police, firefighters..etc. It's no wonder the child is easily bought off by a coach to be violent.
Stepping down from the soapbox *please ignore all the grammar/spelling errors*
Posts: 163 | Registered: May 1999
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I didn't use the same language, but I think I was expressing similar sentiments when I said this:
quote: And if all this is true, he betrayed the trust of the kid who was injured, the kid he paid, the families of both kids. And I'd also like to think the rest of the team might see him as having betrayed their trust.
At least that was what I was trying to do. There's a lot of harm spread around in this one act, if it's true.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Oh that's just SICK. Those poor children. I am curious about the outcome of this, if he gets banned for more than one season. Anything less than total banishment from the league is unforgiveable. Don't coaches have to have criminal reference checks these days? They can't let a guy with such a recent and horrible offence coach. I mean, my brother's elementary basketball parent-coach was barred from coaching when they discovered he had a marijuana possession charge that was twenty-five years old. If something as small as that is grounds for firing from a volunteer position, shouldn't this? Are they really that desperate to get coaches?
I'd be surprised if as many parents register their kids next year. What a stain on the origanization.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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One of the wonderful things about volunteer positions is that people can be fired from them without any legal recourse.
What concerns me is that the league is apparently considering anything less than banning this guy.
I imagine he'll probably face civil charges from more than one set of parents. The league could also be sued, one assumes, if they knew about it and didn't stop him. Even if he is a volunteer.
If either of the kids involved were my child, I'd offer this guy a choice. Leave town and I would not file a multi-million dollar civil suit, or stay and face the best lawyers I could afford. I'd sue the league regardless.
Mainly to put them out of business. If they let this guy operate, they don't deserve to be running programs for kids.
Question:
If the kid who did the hitting was your son, what would you do with your boy right now?
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Friday, July 29, 2005 By Moustafa Ayad, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
UNIONTOWN -- An 8-year-old boy who told authorities he was bribed by his coach to throw a baseball at an autistic teammate testified yesterday that after he hit the teammate in the groin, the coach ordered him "to go out there and hit him harder."
Keith Reese told Uniontown District Justice Deberah Kula that his coach, Mark Downs Jr., 27, not only offered him $25 on June 27 to hurl a ball at his teammate's head before a playoff game, but also goaded him into throwing another ball when the first one did not get the boy to pull out of the game.
At the end of the hearing, Kula ordered Downs held for trial on two counts of criminal solicitation to commit aggravated assault, corruption of minors, conspiracy to commit simple assault and recklessly endangering another person. He will be arraigned Sept. 15.
There's more to the article. There were four witnesses in all. Reese Sr. (father of the kid who threw the balls) said the coach admitted urging Reese Jr. to hit the other kid with the ball.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Does anyone remember the days when kids just went outside and played stickball, baseball, kick the can, and dodge ball for FUN?!
No. I played softball once, as a twelve-year-old, which is much too old to start if you want to be competitive. It was a disaster. I was horrified at the time and am horrified in retrospect at the coach's I-hate-the-weak-players-on-my-team attitude, and I still hate team sports. I'll do things that are athletic, but never in concert with other people.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:And that makes me think that most people in general really are just as capable of sick ideas.
Are you saying the ability to imagine violent retribution and to agree with and embellish a "gut reaction" wishing to carry it out is "sick"? In what way?
quote:The difference between the majority and those few like this coach is a momentary lapse of judgement - something happens that allows crazy gut instincts to be acted upon. I don't understand how that happens, but because I don't understand I have to wonder if it could happen at any given time to anyone...
It's been adequately explained above why this wasn't a "momentary lapes." It was also clear from context that these were initial reactions, and not ones anyone wanted to actually carry out or have carried out.
Further, this didn't "happen" to the coach. The coach did this.
quote:If the kid who did the hitting was your son, what would you do with your boy right now?
I think I'd punish him. I'd ask him the following questions:
1. Do you know that throwing a baseball at someone can hurt them?
2. Would you like it if someone tried to hit you with a baseball?
3. Would you have done it if the coach didn't offer to pay you any money?
Then I'd explain that even though the coach was very wrong, should have known better, and is supposed to be more responsible than a child, people are responsible for their own actions. I'd pick some fairly severe punishment - don't know what - and ask him what he would do next time something like this happened. I'd explain that if he feels uncomfortable telling a grownup "no," he can come to me no matter what and we'll figure out together what we should do.
I'd make him apologize to the boy - although I'd try to get him to recognize he should do that on his own without ordering him. Then I'd make him donate the money plus a matching amount to a charity.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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If the kid who did the hitting was your son, what would you do with your boy right now?
Good question Bob. I suppose I'd start by telling him that he did the right thing when he told the truth about what had happened. Then I'd have a long talk with him about how he felt about what he'd done, and how he thought that the other boy felt, and why hurting other people was a bad thing. This is coming from someone who doesn't have kids of his own, of course, so take it with a grain of salt, but the "sitting down and talking it out" approach worked pretty well on me when I was a kid.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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If the kid who did the hitting was your son, what would you do with your boy right now?
a long series of talks (I figure my kids wouldn't sit down for one big talks) and longer series of reinforcements about what are and are not acceptible circumstances to use force.
edit because I wasn't clear: This *is* punishment for them, but mildly so... I don't agree with Dag...
*pauses while the earth stops moving for a moment*
did anyone else notice that?
*resumes*
don't agree with Dag that the child would deserve a severe reprimand in this case (if it was some random adult, maybe worse, but a coach *is* an authority figure and I find that pretty mitigating...) but I like his choice to reinforce the idea that "if you have trouble saying 'no' to a grown up, come get me." That's a very important lesson to get home.
quote: I suppose I'd start by telling him that he did the right thing when he told the truth about what had happened.
This is a very good point.
quote:don't agree with Dag that the child would deserve a severe reprimand in this case
Obviously, I might change my mind when I actually have kids. But throwing a ball to hurt someone is wrong, barring some extreme circumstances like trying to stop a mugging. Even an 8-year old should know this. And when one decides to commit violence, one is risking being held accountable if one's reason is not good enough.
It might be a tough lesson to learn, but the last thing I want to reinforce is that an authority figure's say-so is an excuse from responsibility. Especially when money changes hands.
This underscores why I'm so pissed at the coach, by the way.
Now that I think about it, this:
quote:Then I'd make him donate the money plus a matching amount to a charity.
and the associated labor seems like an adequate punishment, given an 8-year old's ability to earn $25.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I think the child's susceptibility to influence is a major issue. I know others have touched on it. I have a feeling this kid was not a natural bully, but one who is easily told what to do, and may have been pressured that it was for the good of the team. But it may have also been a kid who just really wanted to win. Hard to know.
I have a niece who has autism, and is the same age as one of my children. When they get together both her parents and I wish my child would play with the special needs child, but she elects instead to play with a younger sibling. It isn't easy to play with an autistic child, though she isn't violent- she just isn't interested in people. I also think the younger sibling is excited to play with someone more interactive. It's a difficult problem. Basic empathy.
Of course, I see now that my framework of morality for children has been permanently marked by that morality for children book: Autonomy, Empathy... some other things. Something called Conversability, and then the positive complements to these things. I guess I need to review it.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I would have such a hard time if it was my son who did this. I would definately have several long conversations and the kid would not be playing any organized sports for awhile. I would, in addition to an apology, have my son do service for the other kid. Talk with the other parents and see if my son can aleviate some of the injured boy's stress by doing his chores for him and generally serving the boy. He would be seriously grounded from fun activities for quite awhile. See the goal of any consequence is to make the consequence unpleasant enough to cause the child to never want to do the wrong thing again. I know just sitting and talking to my son would never do it. He has a leaky hearing system... in one ear and out the next. But take away his nintendo and make him do physical chores speaks volumes to his control center and he learns to align his behavior with what is expected of him.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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I don't think legally he would be able to coach again. Wouldn't the "corruption of minors" charge bar him from ever working with a vulnerable population again?
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Probably not. Each organization can probably make their own rules, and I don't know that a conviction will carry lifetime penalties as it does for sex offenders.
Of course, an organization who hires such a person will be exposing themselves to much potential liability.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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That's unspeakable. That couldn't have been a competetive league (which require tryouts) if there was a disabled participant. Parents who have their kids in leagues that are just "for fun" like this want their kids to learn fair play and have a fun social experience. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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