quote:Quote: "Not if adequate education isn't available"
Thats something you'll have to search deep in your self to really find the answer to.
Do you truly believe that?
Even if it is "true" on some scientific level, do you want to establish as a fact in this world that if you have a bad upbringing then you can't contribute positively to society?
Did I say if one has a bad upbringing that one can't contribute positively to society?
No. I disagreed with your statement that "hard work, dedication and perserverance will overcome all barriers."
posted
Blacks and whites now mix at work, socially, at church, wherever. I was out pub crawling last week and saw blacks and whites chatting each other up. Of course, any site like the one you describe, Erez, is going to be totally unreliable.
Still, mostly, purely social groups will be all black or all white.
Jewishness? Well, we won't see them at church , but we'll mix everywhere else. It's no big deal.
White people are afraid of blacks. We tend to think they'll rob us and kill us. Although most blacks, of course, wouldn't do anything of the sort, when you do see a picture of a hoodlum, far too often it's a black face. So people get scared.
Best thing I know about this white supremacy stuff is that it is very passe. Almost nobody's interested.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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"WASP" is a term that bugs me about as much as "honky." Surely there are other words that could be chosen to describe more precisely the group you are concerned about.
More to the point, I think the "faith alone" thing was confined to a selection of Protestant sects, by the way. It is by no means universal in Protestant dogma, despite what it may appear from any localized sample you've run across.
Also, it'd be interesting to take a look at charitable giving in the US, and various projects run by various denominations.
As for the question that began this thread, I think racism and sexism are still alive and well (or not so well) in this country. The norm is by no means depicted by the fringe folks in the "white power" movement. They are typically portrayed as poor, under-educated, and seeking to blame others for their misfortune.
The fact that they are a small minority of the US population should be comforting. Every society has such people. It's only when their viewpoint becomes common that things get really scary on a grand scale. These groups tend to get noticed when they perpetrate some stupid act of violence or hatred and get caught or when they become outlaws and the Feds go after them. Our FBI monitors them pretty closely. Sometimes that enforcement gets out of control as well (look up "survivalists" if you want a nice history of that side of the issue). Basically, they have tended to isolate themselves because the primary tenet of these groups is that the government is already "infiltrated" and can't be trusted. As such, they lack political clout and are truly on the fringe.
The real racism in America is more of a vestige of official racism of the past. Stereotypes infiltrate our thinking about various subpopulations to the point that it is still difficult for a black man to get a cab in some cities, even from black cab drivers. For the most part it is based on fear.
The good news is that we do have laws that have been successfully used to break down the most damaging and obvious barriers in employment and housing. It's a start. It means that companies have to put policies in place that eliminate overt discrimination or face large fines and civil penalties from law suits.
The more subtle forms of discrimination persist, but I think the barriers are crumbling. One factor has been integration in schools, I think. While there have been incidents of race-based stratification in our schools, there have also been some less measurable results from mixing the races at an earlier age. Friendships form. Fear is reduced and replaced with a realistic appraisal of individuals. The bad stuff makes the news. The good stuff seldom does.
It's one of the things I worry about with so called "white flight" from urban environments and with the home-schooling movement in general. Not that these are universally things that perpetuate racism, but they are trends that slow the good effects of experiencing others of different races. Especially if the parents are making such moves out of their fear.
(so please don't dogpile. I know lots of kids get a healthy dose of interracial experiences even if they are homeschooled and I know that some of the fear of violence in the schools, and low education quality, are justified in some areas.)
I think people are afraid still. Areas of the country that are more traditionally "white" are the ones where I've encountered the most racism. The South has mostly gotten past it. But then, these people grew up knowing black people, and the wave of Hispanic immigrants from Mexico (especially) started in the South and the Southwest. The MidWest and NorthEast are among the areas where I've encountered the greatest ignorance of other races, and thus the greatest fear and racism.
I lived in the South for 12 years and heard the "N" word in reference to a black person exactly once. It was said by a guy from Ohio. A recent transplant. Southerners are far too polite and well-mannered to use the word, at least in front of strangers.
Inner cities in America are the tough nut to crack these days. The urban areas of America are generally impoverished and have a greater proportion of minorities than rural or sub-urban areas nearby. Urban areas have more crime. Urban areas generally have a reputation for worse-performing schools. It's all tied together, as Irami pointed out. Teasing out the race from the economic is not easy.
People with little direct experience with minority-group-members are likely to just ball it all together and end up believing in some stereotypes.
But we've also seen that bad things happen in the suburbs among the monied classes too. And then everyone's shocked by it! Sure, we expect it "over there" but not in the 'burbs.
Ah well...
Someday, I hope, people in the US will realize that we have gone down a too-violent path altogether and some things need fixing in order to get to a better place. Some of those things are the economic inequalities we have built into our version of capitalism. Others are power and class related.
I imagine we'll figure it out eventually, but there are probably some painful realizations ahead of us before we get there.
And, to me, we're among the most welcoming countries in the world. I shudder when thinking about how bad it'll be for other countries when they go through this.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:White people are afraid of blacks. We tend to think they'll rob us and kill us. Although most blacks, of course, wouldn't do anything of the sort, when you do see a picture of a hoodlum, far too often it's a black face. So people get scared.
We're afraid of blacks? Do you really think its possible to get a reliable number of people who are afraid? I suppose that's a facetious question, but still, it's the same kind of ignorant generalization as racism to say that all whites are afraid of blacks.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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I do think there's an element of "fear" but it could be fear of the unknown, fear of not giving your kids the best education possible, fear of being robbed, whatever.
The "black face" of crime in the US is a statistical oddity in that it very much depends on where you live and what you experience locally. The number of white criminals (last time I checked) still exceeds the number of minority criminals. But the prison population certainly is skewed in the other direction.
And it depends on the crime too. We put people in jail for life for drug possession. We put people like Kenneth Lay in jail for as short a time as possible under the circumstances. One person ruins their own life. The other ruined the retirement of 100's if not 1000's of people.
It's all a symptom of the fundamental unfairnesses remaining in US society. I think we'll address them someday. It's going to hurt a lot when we do. I think people know that and that's, in part, why it's taking too damned long!
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:We put people like Kenneth Lay in jail for as short a time as possible under the circumstances. One person ruins their own life. The other ruined the retirement of 100's if not 1000's of people.
Be fair, Bob. This has changed in the last few years. Ebbers got 25 years, almost certainly a life sentence for him - there will be no parole. He could have been given life. The Rigas got 15 and 20 years. Tyco's ex-CEO faces up to 30.
If Lay goes down, I bet he'll do hard time. Very hard.
White-collar sentences are changing for the better.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
OHOHOHOH!!!! I have an amazing idea, lets all register on their forum and bash their arguements all to hell?
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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get this, they think there's no way Treblinka could've killed 800,000 people because there was supposedly 120 people stall and rilfemen administering the camp, that is just plain stupid they didn't kill them all at once.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
??? the link already existed at thye beggining of this thread, and quite frankly I'm STUNNED by the utter smell of their excrement these people exume everytime they post, I don't think I can hold myself back I feel like bashing their arguements with OMG *GASP* LOGIC AND HUMAN DECENCY! Which these (who don't even deserve the name) PEOPLE lack.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
oh no, not if we do it right, you see if we bash their arguements using logic, human decency and etc we won't be considered trolls thus we can continue to destory their shells of dellusions of supremcy they hold around themselves. Unless of course they ban our IP's just because they don't want to listen to other people's opinions which would prove beyond a doubt that these people are scum.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I hope so. We would be like the troll under the bridge who eats the Big Bad Wolf. Trolls aren't always bad.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Unless of course they ban our IP's just because they don't want to listen to other people's opinions which would prove beyond a doubt that these people are scum.
It's statements like this that make me doubt your ability to "bash[] their arguements with OMG *GASP* LOGIC AND HUMAN DECENCY!"
That, plus the fact that they don't share premises with you, so logical discourse isn't even possible.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Could someone please cite a personal example where Affirmative Action has resulted in someone losing a job opportunity? Does anyone know where I can find a study that provides research statistically showing how affirmative action programs has affected non-minority hiring practices?
quote:Originally posted by The Reader: We're afraid of blacks? Do you really think its possible to get a reliable number of people who are afraid? I suppose that's a facetious question, but still, it's the same kind of ignorant generalization as racism to say that all whites are afraid of blacks.
It really isn't accurate to assume that any generalization about a racial group is racism. "Blacks are more prone to hypertension that whites" is not really a racist statement.
And the word "ignorant" here is just name-calling -- and ad hominem, and a distraction. If you knew that whites don't have a tendency to fear blacks, you'd provide evidence.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Could someone please cite a personal example where Affirmative Action has resulted in someone losing a job opportunity? Does anyone know where I can find a study that provides research statistically showing how affirmative action programs has affected non-minority hiring practices?
Not strictly hiring practices, but there were many contracts we couldn't bid on as a non-8A firm (minority owned, basically). In at least two instances, we had to work as a sub on contracts where the agency wanted to hire us directly but could only get money to an 8a firm. That meant we lost 51% of the work.
quote:And the word "ignorant" here is just name-calling -- and ad hominem, and a distraction. If you knew that whites don't have a tendency to fear blacks, you'd provide evidence.
I called the generalization ignorant, not the poster. Whoever posted that statement (the post seems to have been deleted, and I don't remember who made it) said that "White people are afraid of blacks. We tend to think they will rob us and kill us." It seems a lot like stereotyping to say that white people have a tendency to fear blacks.
I can't provide evidence because a tendency in this instance means that it is a behavioral aspect applicable to a certain race. How can you prove that an intentional behavior is intrinsic to a whole race? Or was there a study of white people to determine whether or not we have a tendency to be afraid?
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Um, Sid, it's been tried, on this very board, against both creationists and theists. Some beliefs can't be shifted with anything short of machine guns.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Nice. Now you equate theism with virulent, violent racism.
Although if you think what you've engaged in on this board when discussing theism is "logical discourse," much about you is explained.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Actually, he didn't equate them. He just said they were equally unshiftable beliefs, which is very different from saying they are the same.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
oh oh, take 5 and *breath in* *breath out* relax, we don't want any petty arguements here we're better then that.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Actually, he didn't equate them. He just said they were equally unshiftable beliefs, which is very different from saying they are the same.
This is what Sid is trying to accomplish:
quote:oh no, not if we do it right, you see if we bash their arguements using logic, human decency and etc we won't be considered trolls thus we can continue to destory their shells of dellusions of supremcy they hold around themselves.
quote:quite frankly I'm STUNNED by the utter smell of their excrement these people exume everytime they post, I don't think I can hold myself back I feel like bashing their arguements with OMG *GASP* LOGIC AND HUMAN DECENCY! Which these (who don't even deserve the name) PEOPLE lack.
To which, KoM responded:
quote:Um, Sid, it's been tried, on this very board, against both creationists and theists.
"It" refers to using logic and "human decency" "to destory their shells of dellusions of supremcy they hold around themselves."
Given KoM's desire to put us all in camps, he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt on this one.
quote:Could someone please cite a personal example where Affirmative Action has resulted in someone losing a job opportunity? Does anyone know where I can find a study that provides research statistically showing how affirmative action programs has affected non-minority hiring practices?
When I worked as a university purchasing agent, I encountered it every day. Let's see if I can explain this so it makes sense.
When certain grants were awarded to researchers they included with them a requirement that a percentage of the grant money be spent with minority or women-owned businesses. We employed a full time minority and woman-owned business coordinator who made sure that we purchasing agents "did our job."
Our job consisted of awarding purchase orders to these minority and woman-owned firms, even when the orders were for supplies that were covered under contract with a different firm and could be gotten cheaper from that firm.
I've personally forced the university to pay twice as much for materials just so the materials could come from a minority or female owned firm. The exact same items. In one case the minority owned firm purchased the items from the company we had the contract with and then re-sold them to us for twice the cost.
Now that may not answer your question because you referred to jobs, but these practices certainly do affect jobs at some point.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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The above is the findings of a case wherein a white student sued the Univ of Michigan Law School because she was denied acceptance to the school in favor of minority applicants. The court found in her favor, and the Univ was ordered to stop using race as a factor in admissions.
quote:For the reasons stated in this opinion, the court concludes that the University of Michigan Law School's use of race as a factor in its admissions decisions is unconstitutional and a violation of Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The law school's justification for using race — to assemble a racially diverse student population — is not a compelling state interest. Even if it were, the law school has not narrowly tailored its use of race to achieve that interest. Nor may the law school's use of race be justified on the alternative grounds urged by the intervenors — to "level the playing field" between applicants of minority and non-minority races — because the remedying of societal discrimination, either past or present, has not been recognized as a compelling state interest.
There's also the issue for the Boston Fire and Police departments:
quote:Selya ruled in favor of the five white firefighters who were turned down for a firefighter position, despite scoring 99 out of 100 points on the Massachusetts Division of Personnel Administration exam. They were refused because the Beecher Decree required the BFD to hire more minority candidates, who scored lower on the exam.
posted
Belle, I believe the district court decision in Grutter was overturned by SCOTUS. The undergraduate AA program was struck down because it gave points to black applicants. The law school program was OKed because it merely used race as one of many factors.
My summary is definitely correct (though incomplete), but it might not be the case you linked.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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"I want to say that the last paragraph of your last post is spot on, down to mentioning that there is no easy, quantitative, way to measure the "success" of alumni contributions to society."
Yep. I'd also add that it's not just the "success," but the value added. In my opinion, in California, the CSU system turns out more successful alumni than the UC system in terms of value added. The UCs starts out (mostly) with high-achieving kids (many of whose parents are working professionals with advance degrees). And yet, if you look at funding structure, pay, prestige, etc...
<-----proud to be both a community college, UC and CSU alum
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Anyone who believes that racism doesn't exist in this country have never lived in Milwaukee, WI or Detroit, MI. Move to those cities (I live in Milwaukee) and tell me racism doesn't exist.
At my company picnic yesterday, as I walked in to the park area, I noticed that there were tables off to the side with nothing but black people sitting at them and a whole bunch of other tables with nothing but white people (and one black family) sitting at them. It was actually kind of shocking and depressing, but this is how our city is made up.
I need to move out of this town.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Affirmative action HAS been misused and misused greatly.
But it has been used well too. Frankly if two applicants for a school or job have comperable qualifications, I see nothing wrong with taking the minority in the interest of racial/social/cultural/etc. diverstiy.
MOST affirmative action programs are NOT about quotas or hiring the less qualified just because they are minorities. That's just what people like to point to so that they have something to get mad about.
MOST Affirmative Action policies ARE about outreach. Advertising in places where certain minorities are likely to see it. Going to high schools with high minority populations to recruit promising students.
I am a beneficiary of Affirmative Action. In college I was in the Research Opportunity Program which took racial/cultural minority students and also first generation college students and went through the basics of applying for graduate school, finding references, writing VITAs, gave us a Kaplan class for the GRE, and also paired us with a mentor to work on a research project. To get into the program participants had to be someone that Grad Schools would actually look at. Good GPA, one good reference letter from a Professor, did well in an interview.
I also frequented the American Indian Student Services (AISS), which was exactly what it sounds like, had academic counseling, intervention, and advocacy. There were computers for research and word processing. It was also a space for the Indian students to go hang out.
NonIndians were not barred from using AISS, but where as there was outreach to make Indian Students aware of AISS, that was not a priority for Non-Indians. I imagine if it ever got to the point where nore Non-Indians were using it that Indians, it would have been shut down, because it would not have been serving its purpose.
My mom would never have gotten through school without AISS. She would have gotten lost in the shuffle, and quit in frustration. It would have been too bad too, because she graduated Magna Cum Laude, and in the Phi Beta Kappa Honor Society, one of the few members who's major was in humanities (they require lots of math and science).
She is a brilliant student, but not so good at negotiating the University Ropes, nor at standing up for herself when being harassed by a professor, or being given the run around by the Scholarship or English Department.
I think it would have been a shame, certainly for my Mom, but also for UNM if they had lost one of their really bright stars before graduation. AISS, an affirmative action program, prevented that.
The beautiful thing about AISS was that the counselors/advocates were familiar with how many to most Native American college students reacted to situations, and were sensitive to cultural differences that make University confusing and frustrating specifically for Natives.
I think many people would have all sorts of reasons why asking a Native student to compassionatley tell Kit Carson's side of the story of The Long Walk is just REALLY bad. "Get over it." They might say. But really it is tantamount to asking a Jewish person to compassionately tell Himmeler's (sp?) side of the story about a death camp.
It seems silly at best to condemn Affirmative Action as a whole because of misuses, abuses, and mistakes of SOME parts. Many parts are helpful and beneficial. Why sack those instead of working on the parts that don't work so well?
Think I lost my train of thought... sorry. Maybe I'll get back to it, I think I mostly said what I wanted to though.
Posts: 772 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Very good point, Zalmoxis, and a nice extension to my thoughts on it.
Say person X will contribute 1000* to society without college, and 1100 to society with college. Person Y will contribute 400 to society without college, and 900 with it. The college doesn't contribute as much to society by admitting X over Y.
I don't think every admissions decision has to be made like this, but I don't think people examine the whole situation when they speak of merit-only admissions policies.
*Remember, I don't actually think this is reducible to a single number. Also, I think that some people who start at a higher "society contribution" measure will gain even more in college compared to some people who start with a lower measure. This was one example only.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:MOST affirmative action programs are NOT about quotas or hiring the less qualified just because they are minorities. That's just what people like to point to so that they have something to get mad about.
MOST Affirmative Action policies ARE about outreach. Advertising in places where certain minorities are likely to see it. Going to high schools with high minority populations to recruit promising students.
Yes - this cannot be emphasized enough. Much racial inequity is born because the people who make selections (for school, jobs, whatever) use a series of processes that are more geared to reaching the "average" person. For example, when we did college recruiting, we thought immediately of VT, UVA, and William and Mary. It didn't occur to us to think of historically black colleges.
I don't find malice in this, but it's something to overcome when we recognize it. And most AA is geared toward this.
Quotas are, in many ways, simply lazy AA. They are also a side-effect of anti-discrimination laws - proportional representation is a pretty strong defense, so many companies strive for it as a precaution.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
There's no question that some good has come of affirmative action programs and I'm not one of those people who thinks they should all be abolished.
I had no trouble, in my job, with making concerted efforts to ensure that minority and women owned businesses received opportunities to bid on contracts. I didn't have a problem with that at all - it ensured that some businesses that might have been economically disadvantaged got the same chances to land big contracts as any other business.
What I objected to was not the fact that we should make extra effort to give minority owned businesses opportunities, but that we should give them orders even if they lost the bids. At the expense of the company that won the bid, and at the expense of the university which now had to pay more for the same product.
I don't object to colleges spending extra money recruiting in minority areas and working hard to make sure that every opportunity for success is granted a minority student. I don't object to scholarships being available for minority students only, because I do think the university gains something if it has a diverse student body.
However, I do object to things like merit scholarships considering race as a factor. If it's a merit scholarship it should go to the student with the highest GPA or test score or whatever, regardless of race.
I object to practices like the one that was in place at the Boston fire department, where white firefighters were passed over for promotion in favor of minority firefighters with less experience and who scored lower on promotion exams.
I wouldn't object to efforts to recruit minority fire fighters to join the department, but once there everyone should be promoted solely on their own merit.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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You're again misrepresenting me. You're reading your own personal issues (which I share, btw) into what I said. It is in fact ironic from a political and social and historical standpoint for a white person to complain about 'reverse racism'. Even a cursory examination of the history of America reveals why it's ironic, just because that wasn't the way it was for most of our history.
That's all I said. I didn't say whites shouldn't get to complain if they're discriminated against, I didn't say discrimination against whites was fair and just, I didn't say that whites should just accept discrimination, for pete's sake!
All I said, ALL I said was one that white people should remember that in the game of racism and discrimination, we as a race (and I don't believe in characterizing individuals on that line) we have given minorities in America (pretty much the same across the world, really) much more reason to mistrust us, than they have them.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
actually they do have a geust forum, for the purposes of debates, in which I hope to join in with the opposition plenty of threads trying to debunk the delluded WN people.
I still can't believe that these people are serious, everything they say is nothing more then speculation and pseudo-science, no actual science just what they think is right. If people like these lived near me I'ld move 100 miles away.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I think you and I are on the same page. At least it seems so.
I just really felt the need to interject with some clarifications, because often, TOO often, Affirmative Action discussions end up being all about the misuses and abuses, about quotas, and hiring unqualified people. People start thinking that that is what Affirmative Action IS. But it is bigger and better than that. And I think people really need to get that, understand that, accept that. Otherwise it is a meaningless discussion.
Posts: 772 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Sid, perhaps you should concentrate on writing actual, non-run-on sentences if you wish to impress them with your logic and dispassion.
As it is, I predict someone will be calling you a racist name within 10 posts.
Seriously, NOTHING GOOD can come of this. You are only giving them more fodder for their loathsome worldview.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
...... but would they actually do it? If a moderator asks me to remove it for the greater good and security of this forum then I will or if I'm sleeping delete it for me, but it will be a number of days even before it actually gets posted (considering they have a moderator check every post) , it may not even get posted though I did post it on their debate forum. so I'ld like it up for a bit so that a couple of other people can see it, I consider this dispite probable grammatic and spelling errors my little moral soap box. So preferably a one day delay so that I can enjoy my little moral stand here.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
True, but Google caches pages when it uses spiders to find them. If a spider were to drop by, a Google search would be linked to this page--even if you deleted the post.
posted
Aye El Capitan just that I do really like my post its not often I write a post that I truly have my hearts into. The last paragraph I like the best.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Also, just bear this in mind (and this is not a criticism of you alone, I'm prone to too much of it myself): 'moral stands' online are almost always valueless in their impact. Nothing is risked.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Thus I am ashamed to have any kind of affiliation with you people
And yet you go and and cultivate a stronger association with them by participating in their discussions.
Do you know what the definition of troll is?
Just because they are doing something you consider repulsive is no reason to behave badly towards them.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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