posted
I thought this exact thought when the Mississippi governor called it "our tsunami". We sent tons of aid over there for their disaster, yet I don't see anyone offering to help us.
Then again, being the wealthiest nation on earth, they probably assume we don't need aid. (which may be right -- but it would still be nice if they asked if they could help)
posted
I really don't think "they all hate us". We are the wealthiest nation on Earth, we shouldn't really be asking for help.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: I thought this exact thought when the Mississippi governor called it "our tsunami". We sent tons of aid over there for their disaster, yet I don't see anyone offering to help us.
Perhaps they're not offering to help us because we're comparing our current situation to one where over 200,000 people died. And, while I am deeply saddened by the devastating tragedy that is affecting anyone connected to this hurricane, I find the comparison to the tsumani offensive. It's as though we view a few hundred Americans dying to be as important or significant as a couple hundred thousand foreigners...
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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If you see a wealthy person in a crisis, wouldn't it still be polite to offer help, emotional support, a physical act - something? Even if you knew that financially they can take care of it themselves -- sometimes it is just nice to offer support?
posted
I think at least this many people die every year from monsoon season in many places in SE Asia, and we don't offer aid for that.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
THT - While some parts of my logic agrees with you, I think it comes down to the basic fact that people are hurting, whether that be 200 people or 2000 people, or 200,000 people -- it is still a crisis, and it would be nice for other nations to say "Hey, we're here if you need us, if you need anything. We're sorry this happened"
I agree -- not near the extent of the Indian tsunami, or even the twin towers (as far as numbers yet known) but still, it is a major catastrophe, and many are hurting, and it will be many many months before things are back in order.
posted
While I agree the death toll is much less (thank God!), the conditions after this storm are very similar to the conditions after the tsunami, and the same type of relief effort is needed. Within those narrow confines, the comparison is valid.
Besides, go tell the thousands of people who don't know if their loved ones are alive or dead that this isn't as "sginficant" or "important" as the tsunami. To each person affected, this is exactly as bad as the tsunami was to each person affected by it. The fact that there were many more people affected by the tsunami doesn't change any one person's level of grief, fear, pain, or sense of loss.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
It's entirely possible, too, that aid (or at least condolences/moral support) has been offered. Leaders of nations make such gestures to other leaders of nations, not to their news groups or to the individuals involved. Can anyone here verify that such gestures haven't been made? Are you 100 percent sure that such gestures would necessarily be reported right away or that the reporting wouldn't be lost in the flood of disaster news? Are you sure it hasn't been reported?
[edit to clarify: by "not to their newsgroups" I mean, Britain isn't likely going to make the annoucement to the New York Times. I do, however, imagine they'd let the London Times know. etc.]
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
FarmGirl, I understand the sentiment behind your comment, and we don't know if other countries have said anything or not. They may very well have offered support or something of that nature but the press will stay stuck on the bad news and not report the good news. I heard on NPR recently (I think it was On The Media) that if there are 2 stories, one about a mother who drowns her 2 children, and one about a mother who rushes into a burning building to save her 2 children, one of these stories will get a ton of media attention, and the other will be mostly ignored
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
KarlEd and DarkKnight make good points. It is very possible that other countries have, indeed, called the President and offered concern/condolences/aid. Just because we haven't heard about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Thanks for pointing that out to me. I should have thought that already.
quote:Chavez made an offer last week for discount gasoline to poor Americans suffering from high oil prices and offered free eye surgery for Americans without access to health care.
I'm touched but also a bit puzzled by the last statement. Why eye surgery?
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posted
I dunno, Venezuela still sends America more than 1.5 billion barrels of oil every day. You may not get along politically but business sure is good.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I haven't been paying attention to Canadian news sources for the past while because CBC is on strike. However two days ago I seem to remember reading something about Canada offering condolences. I can't remember if their was an offer of help in there. I haven't found anything to "back" me up so there's a chance my memory is wrong Posts: 944 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I think it's quite possible other nations have offered aid and at least sent condolences that we haven't heard about, but let's remember that we're having trouble getting our OWN people into the areas that need help. It would be wonderful if, say, Great Britain said they were sending over several hundred search and rescue divers but could we get them to the areas where they're needed or would having to accomodate them and transport them only put additional strain on already strained infrastructure and emergency agencies?
Last night they talked about dozens of boats and rescuers lined up, trying to get into areas where people were trapped on their rooftops and being unable to do it. I think we already have plenty of volunteers and people who want to help the problem is getting the right people to the right places.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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"On behalf of the Conservative Party of Canada I would like to express our sympathy to all the victims and their families of Hurricane Katrina. As my wife Laureen and I watched news reports of the disaster with our children we were shocked by the magnitude of their loss. As Leader of the Opposition, I extend our support and offer of any assistance that we can provide. Natural disasters such as this remind us that when our close friends and neighbours are in trouble we, as Canadians, are always ready to help out."
posted
The US has the infrastructure to help it's own citizens. We have ways of coping with disaster and we have ways of accounting for the dead and the lost. (Or at least many of them.) Financially we probably don't honestly need the help. And as far as gas prices. The US consumers tend to pay towards the lower end of the scale.
I'm not sure why anyone would/should offer to help us. I think condolences is probably the most appropriate action.
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
For what it's worth, I heard on NPR that Saudi Arabia has agreed to increase its oil output to help.
The thing that really gets me about the disaster relief issue is that America is expected to give lots of money to help other nations. I seem to recall that somebody arbitrarily decided we weren't giving enough for the tsunami aid, so we were compelled to give more. It's no longer a matter of our being generous or helpful--it's like other nations think that because we're the most powerful nation, we're obligated to help. Yet for the same reason, no one is obligated (or even inclined) to help us. America's rich, it can handle it. And of course we can't get upset and refuse to help them next time, because then suddenly we'd be the horrible arrogant monster, and even our allies would turn against us. The same allies who don't lift a finger when we're having a disaster.
And it has nothing to do with President Bush, by the way. We'd be in exactly the same situation if Gore or Kerry or Christopher bloody Walken were president right now.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Unfortunately, increasing oil output or opening up the strategic reserves won't help much in this case. The problem is refining capacity, because the huge refineries in coastal Texas are mostly shut down. It isn't lack of oil, it's lack of refined products (gasoline, jet fuel, et cetera).
What might happen, if additional refining capacity is available here in Canada or down in Mexico, is that you might start seeing more refined products being piped crossborder rather than mostly crude oil.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
But aren't there refineries all over? My BIL works for Exxon-Mobil, at refineries in Chicago, and Virginia, and Singapore, and Germany, etc. Does the damage at the gulf area refineries really hurt this much of the overall picture? Can't they just up output at the others, or is everything always running at max? Or do refineries have to be within a certain region?
quote: We'd be in exactly the same situation if Gore or Kerry or Christopher bloody Walken were president right now.
Actually, I suspect a Walken presidency would be marked by 4-8 years of eerie calm among the US and its allies, while leaders of antagonistic countries mysteriously perished for random inexplicable reasons.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
The refineries in Texas are huge, way bigger than almost every other refinery on the planet. Some of them process as much as half a million barrels of crude every day.
Refineries almost always run at or near capacity, so there's no way to eke an additional million-plus barrels of refining capacity out of the other refineries. So yes, it's going to hurt a lot if the Texas refineries stay down for much longer.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Karl--"Actually, I suspect a Walken presidency would be marked by 4-8 years of eerie calm among the US and its allies, while leaders of antagonistic countries mysteriously perished for random inexplicable reasons."
posted
One news report I read said the refineries in that area of Texas and Louisiana process almost 50% of America's crude oil. So yeah. Even if that's not completely accurate, it's probably still pretty close.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I think all are running at max capacity. That is really the problem we currently have with gas prices. The cost of a barrel of oil doesn't determine our cost as much as our lack of ability to process the crude. Unfortunately, nobody wants a refinery in their back yard.
the one thing I find most ironic is that the state that uses the most energy in any form (CA) is the state that has made it impossible (via environmental laws) to increase production to cover their own use! Can you think of a state in the Union that uses more gasoline per capita?
posted
FG, Again from NPR one of the big problems is that most of our refineries are working at maximum output. We also have many different 'flavors' of gas beyond the main 3 levels of octane. California is the 'worst' with it's own unique specifications. We should push to have one set of standards for the whole nation
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Tragedies happen every day. This hurricane isn't even the greatest tragedy in the world this week (see my link). Comparing it to the Tsunami makes me sick to my stomach. A couple hundred people lost compared to a couple hundred thousand.
Crying because other countries aren't offering aid is about the self-absorbed thing I've ever read. The United States has almost as high a Gross Domestic Product as the REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. That's right, we have almost half the world's money. And some of us are upset the other countries don't want to give us more of it when we have a natural disaster.
Its like Bill Gates helping you out financially when your house burns down, and then being offended when you don't offer him money when one of his cars gets a scratch on it.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
When I started this thred, I did not intend for it to be about offers of monetary aid. I was thinking in terms of aid workers, pumping barges, and help with levy repair.
Posts: 514 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: When I started this thred, I did not intend for it to be about offers of monetary aid. I was thinking in terms of aid workers, pumping barges, and help with levy repair.
The levy repair is a difficult problem to solve. Currently, the Army Corps of Engineers has been unable to come up with an immediate fix to stop the flooding and repair the levy...There's just too much damage, too much water, and not enough materials and supplies in place to make a difference.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I keep on thinking about how the Earth changes occassionally. Rivers move, lakes appear and disappear, mountains are created by plate shifting, etc. etc.
I wonder if New Orleans really is gone... a lake now...an inlet.. whatever. How do you fight what nature has decreed?
But if it is gone, where do the people go?
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
NOTE:- This reply refers purely to the question of where is the international aid. I do not mean that suffering for those who have missing relatives or have lost their homes is less important, I’m just trying to understand exactly what you want.
For those of you asking where is the international aid, what kind of aid are you asking for?
Government to government financial aid? If so, I think the Indian floods about a month ago were a more vital cause - more than 1000 dead, 20 million affected with an economy less able to support those affected. BBC news report Western European governments could afford to offer financial aid, but I doubt it would make much difference.
Specialist rescue teams? This is where I think the international community has a large part to play IF the local authorities know what they need, who will help and who will hinder. I also seriously doubt any such teams will not help (unless they are elsewhere working on another emergency). Unfortunately we are unlikely to hear about them as they tend to be small highly trained specialist teams, not very newsworthy.
Fundraising by international charities? I’m also sure this will happen, often focussed on specific groups e.g. children or the poorest. It will also not be big news yet and often takes some time to get going (after the tsunami the big publicity about the collections here was on New Years Eve).
Statements of support by international figure? I’m also sure they will come / have happened, but are not top news. For example (from the BBC news web site)
quote: Queen Elizabeth II has sent a message to Mr Bush saying she is "shocked and saddened" at the devastation caused by Katrina, and expressing her sympathy for US citizens.
posted
First of all, we don't know yet how many are dead. The Mayor of New Orleans said hundreds maybe thousands are dead. So yes, I think we can safely call this the worst tradgedy this week. We don't know how many are dead, we don't know how many have yet to die. At the very least, a million people that lived in the area of NO are now homeless. Do I think comparing it to the tsunami is disgusting? No, I don't. Most of the countries hit by the Tsunami lost less people than we have from Hurricane Katrina. Only Sri Lanka, and Indonesia lost hugely significant numbers, (also some of the smaller island chains, and India). So I don't think, god forbid, if we lost 10,000, that it would be unacceptable to call this our tsunami. The destruction is no less devastating.
Gas prices. I also don't think it is wrong for us to complain about gas prices rising drastically. The working poor in America can't afford to pay higher prices for gas. Yes we pay less than most other nations, but we're used to it, and such a drastic jump can still be catastrophic to your average citizen. I'm a little shocked at some of the callous sentiment in this thread.
As for nature deciding that NO no longer exist. Screw nature. The engineers and construction workers will rebuild the levies twice as high and strong, and NO will be rebuilt.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
There are offers for aid, but you have to remember that there hasn't been a lot of time since the hurricane died down to mobilise things. As far as Canada goes, on the aid front the Canadian Red Cross is accepting donations and sending cash, but both the CRC and the Canadian Salvation army aren't accepting or sending donations of goods because they don't have anywhere to send them too. There aren't any warehouses there for them to store goods, so it's worlds more cost effective to send cash. Plus, America has the infrastructure available to use said cash, which is different from the other Tsunami.
As far as workers go, the Globe and Mail tells me that Canada has 4000-5000 workers available to be sent as well as highly specialized groups that deal specifically in setting up clean water. If they're asked for. Which I don't doubt they will be, but probably not until the American forces need relieving. The rebuilding process will take months, and we're happy to help, but too many cooks spoil the broth, as it were. When and if America needs relief, it's there for them.
Don't know what else we can reasonably do.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Tragedies happen every day. This hurricane isn't even the greatest tragedy in the world this week (see my link). Comparing it to the Tsunami makes me sick to my stomach. A couple hundred people lost compared to a couple hundred thousand.
First of all, we don't know the couple hundred figure will remain, more than likely there will be thousands dead when all is said and done.
Secondly, the reason the tsunami death toll was so high was lack of warning. Had there been no evacuations of the gulf coast regions we could well be looking at 200,000 dead, or more. Over 600,000 people live in the coastal counties of Mississippi. New Orleans and surrounding areas have over 3 million. What if no one had evacuated?
The forces involved - the storm surge, wind, and the type of devastation that was wreaked on the land are very similar - you can look at before and after pictures of the coast and see the amount of destruction. I think a comparison to the tsunami is appropriate, actually. And please remember the guy didn't say "This is worse than the tsunami." He said "This is our tsunami," in other words, this tragedy is as bad for us as the tsunami was for the people it affected. I don't see how you can argue with that. For them, for the ones picking up the pieces and recovering the bodies, it IS as bad. They are facing the same things the countries hit by the tsunami were facing, the only difference is the scale of loss of life and the only reason for that is advance warning.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:As for nature deciding that NO no longer exist. Screw nature. The engineers and construction workers will rebuild the levies twice as high and strong, and NO will be rebuilt.
The levies are somewhat responsible for the current problems that New 0rleans is facing. I'll find the link to the specific article, but the summary was that the ecological impacts of the levies and the development of the city eroded what little natural barriers existed. Simply rebuilding the levies will solve the current problem, but it's likely that another hurricane would cause the same issue to be repeated.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
So they build more levies, taller, higher, better materials. I find it hard to believe they can't examine what went wrong here and engineer a way out of it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote: So they build more levies, taller, higher, better materials. I find it hard to believe they can't examine what went wrong here and engineer a way out of it.
They have determined what went wrong...they built a city below sea-level, sandwiched between two large bodies of water, on sinking ground.
One of the main reasons that New Orleans has such an intricate pumping system is that the city is slowly sinking and flooding on its own anyways...
posted
My great-uncle does flood control stuff for FEMA.
He's supposed to be in charge of the West, but I'm pretty sure he's in New Orleans right now.
He mentioned after he took a vacation there that the whole time he was there, he kept thinking, "what a disaster if there's ever a hurricane like Andrew here."
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I used to work on a disaster relief project with FEMA, and New Orleans was always one of the top locations brought up when we talked about worst-case situations.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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