posted
To those responsible for that editorial in the Times-Picayune:
Right on, Brothers and Sisters.
And to the leaders in the national agencies who have been a day late (several days, actually) and a dollar short, and to you Mr. President, who is ultimately responsible for their actions:
Quit trying to spin your way out of this one. The nation is watching, and we will remember.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
The Australian Govt is getting blasted here because they have not been into New Orleans to help stranded Australians.
Meanwhile, at least 2 Australian news crews have been, and have personally evacuated 10 stranded Australians (and got the exclusive footage, of course.)
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I could be wrong, imogen, but I think I heard somewhere that the government (the US government) had not been allowing embassy and consulate officials from other nations access to NO. I don't know if this is still the case, if it was true to begin with. I do know that I saw a report on either CNN or MSNBC with some folks from Scotland, I believe it was (might have been Ireland) who said that they had not been able to contact nor heard from people from their government, either.
Not that this lets government officials off the hook; I think they should have been insisting. But it is an extenuating circumstance.
posted
Amazing. Everything the mayor and the governor did seems to be Bush's fault; everything Bush did seems to be to their credit!
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Of course, the Australian public is saying that Australia should not have taken no for an answer.
There is now a Australian consular official in NO - the first consular official from any country to be allowed in, if our media is correct.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
"Amazing. Everything the mayor and the governor did seems to be Bush's fault; everything Bush did seems to be to their credit!"
If only there was someone at the top responsible for making sure that agencies in the government are prepared for these things. If only there was someone at the top who could lead the effort to help the city of New Orleans. If only there was someone at the top whose main responsibility was to protect the American people and make sure that there were systems in place to help those who need it the most. Oh wait...
Harry Truman used to say "the buck stops here". This is why Bush is seen that way. He is at the top. To me, the buck stops with him.
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I really hate that quote. Yes, there is some truth to that. You can't take it too far though. Bush can't be responsible for every single official in this country. He can't be all-knowing and actively anticipating every problem. If he were, then we'd just sit around complaining about all his spying and constant interference in a pristine, boring country with a whole lot of restrictive rules.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Wait a minute, it was New Orlean's Mayor whose idea it was to house people in the Superdome...without an "exit strategy" and it's Bush's fault for not providing him with one? So the Crescent was open yet Mr. Nagin did NOTHING to evacuate the superdome? To quote my Bush hating friends "What was the exit strategy Mr. Nagin? When will the people be heading home? Give us a date and time Mr. Nagin"
What the ....?
quote:Bienville built New Orleans where he built it for one main reason: It's accessible. The city between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain was easy to reach in 1718.
And Hurricane's and flooding of course make it soo much easier to get to as well!
quote:How much easier it is to access in 2005 after a hurricane and with constant flooding now that there are interstates under water and bridges knocked down, airports on the other side of the city from the flood and helipads with gun toting thugs waiting and shooting at you, cruise ships, barges that evacuated the area and buses Mayor Nagin let be DESTROYED by the Hurricane and diesel-powered trucks that have to travel over hurricane ravaged land to get to New Orleans and having to have the BACKBONE established on how their goods are to be distributed and how they are to get OUT.
I fixed the quote above to include TRUTH and help remind people of the fact that there was a HURRICANE and that NEW ORLEANS IS FLOODED as it appears the letter writers forgot. BTW Letter writers...the Hurricane that caused all this was called "KATRINA" not "BUSH" although I didn't see the name KATRINA anywhere in the letter.
quote:Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent.
Note to the coast guard and national guard, stop rescuing people and please take back all the people you rescued already back to their rooftops as you really didn't rescue them per the newspaper reports. Way to slap the people trying to make the situation better.
quote:Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That's to the government's shame.
Your people do deserve to be rescued. In fact they've been RESCUING PEOPLE since immediately AFTER the storm and although you're ungrateful in every sence of the word, they're trying to rescue people RIGHT NOW who didn't leave and STILL won't leave. That and the people who shoot at them which makes the operation run ever so much smoothly. Kinda like some of the people who could have left, but didn't and then cry foul when the help comes in a form different than they think it should.
quote:There were thousands of people at the Convention Center because the riverfront is high ground. The fact that so many people had reached there on foot is proof that rescue vehicles could have gotten there, too.
It's also proof that they could have left the city. Or do you actually defend the "I won't leave my house when I know a hurricane is comming, but I'll wade through chest high water afterwards to look for food and water I didn't think to get before hand, especially since I was staying." Yes some couldn't leave on their own. WHAT did your precious Mr. Nagin DO to find out WHO they were and HOW to get them out of there? What was the evacuation plan? Where were Mr. Nagin's Busses? Where are they NOW?
quote:We, who are from New Orleans, are no less American than those who live on the Great Plains or along the Atlantic Seaboard. We're no less important than those from the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia.[quote] And they are also no MORE American than those parts. And those parts have been hit with predicted devastation as well, and the response has been similar but the death toll higher in NO. Are the poor in NO different than the poor in Florida? Are they different than the poor along the Atlantic Coast? What makes the NO victims special? Or is it the circumstances that make it unique? Perhaps it's just me, but maybe a HURRICANE plus an ongoing FLOOD plus 100,000 people STILL IN THE CITY AT LANDFALL might actually provide some unique challenges to those responding. Possibly and overwhelming challenge. Throw in your local armed thugs, and it may just be a MESS.
[quote]Our people deserved to be rescued.
And no one has said otherwise, and in fact they are being rescued. They are being overwhelmed with the requests for "rescue" and yet they still respond. For your Uninformed benefit, it's all they've been doing since landfall. Rescuing. Over and over and over.
quote:No expense should have been spared.
Is it being spared?
quote:No excuses should have been voiced.
So you'd prefer lies than hear what challenges they are actually facing? Maybe you can only hear the politically attackable words the President says and so when he mentions that there are problems and they're going to be "fixed" you don't hear that?
quote:Especially not one as preposterous as the claim that New Orleans couldn't be reached.
If it was SO accessible, with so many ways in the city would have been vacant because that many ways would have been available for the people to get out.
But 100,000 people remained. They couldn't find a way out of the city, so I find it extremely believable that after a DEVASTATING REGION AFFECTING Hurricane and it's continual FLOOD that it MIGHT just be a little hard to get in AND that it might be hard to rescue, feed and evacuate 100,000 people in the process.
To the writers of the open letter I can only offer as sympathy the job openings at the National Enquirer. That or any Bush hating political pundit org.
That's all I can offer to the writer's of a letter that can remember the name "BUSH" frequently during the letter to try and place blame, yet fail to mention the name "KATRINA" even once.
FYI The Times-Picayune of New Orleans the Hurricane that devastated your area was called KATRINA even though you want so BADLY to call it BUSH.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Bush can't be responsible for every single official in this country.
The trouble is that Bush doesn't seem to be responsible for anything. He's not responsible for his policy of restructuring FEMA, or the mistakes the agencies under him make, or for the lack of funding his administration gave to protecting New Orleans from this situation. He's not responsible for our failures in Iraq, for the corruption among contractors in Iraq, and for the terrorist attacks the Iraq War provoked. He's not even responsible for his own claims about WMDs being in Iraq. He's not responsible for our failures in Afghanistan, for shifting attention away from Iran, or for our inability to find Osama bin Laden. He's not responsible for North Korea getting Nuclear Weapons on his watch, despite the fact they justified it based on his policies. He wasn't responsible for 9/11, despite the warnings beforehand. He's not responsibile for the economic downturn that dominated most of his presidency, for the slow recovery, for the limited job growth, and for the staggering budget deficit that has returned only since he moved into office. He's not responsible for any of the government leaks from within his administration. It's not clear that he's admitted any mistake yet - instead blaming it on other lesser officials, bad guys, or inanimate forces of nature, or just pretending that no mistake has been made.
So, here's the question: If not to take responsibility for things that happen as a result of his policies and administration, why do we bother electing a President anyway?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:If not to take responsibility for things that happen as a result of his policies and administration, why do we bother electing a President anyway?
Ask Bill Clinton and every president before him as well.
And your whole post reads like someone with a chip on their shoulder who wants to blame Bush for EVERYTHING and:
quote:inanimate forces of nature
You killed your whole post by claiming "inanimate forces of nature" since I know of no forces that are "inanimate" in nature.
But hey, you're right. GWB must be the DEVIL!
It scares me you believe he's responsible for even half of the things you listed. Saddens me as well.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I don't think Tres is actually blaming Bush for everything. I think there was a point to be made here. Personally I have NEVER heard Bush say, "Sorry, my bad" for anything. (I'm sure people will look now to get quotes to prove me wrong) It is just amazing how nothing is ever his fault. Tres, if I'm wrong I apologize.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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He's responsible for responding to 9/11 instead of pussyfooting around. He successfully invaded Afghanistan and toppled that terrorist government with MINIMAL casualties. He's responsible for forcing OBL to find refuge elsewhere and made it clear that ANY government that harbors or supports him is in trouble. He's responsible for removing Sadaam Hussein from IRAQ. He's responsible for the people of Iraq even having the glimmer of any freedom whatsoever. He's responsible for every school and building built in that country. He's responsible for every election they've had. He's responsible for the opportunity they have to draft a new constitution. He's responsible for their ability to protest and speak their mind. He's responsible for the TURN in the economy that was in a downward spiral from the beginning of the last year of Clinton's presidency. He's responsible for starting dialogue on SS reform that the libs can't get enough silence of (SS is taboo if your a dem). He's responsible for initiating tax reform and trying to lessen the burden by giving tax cuts.
And since you're using such a broad brush to place blame, let's be fair shall we:
He's responsible for every home rebuilt and life saved in Florida due to their hurricane's last year. He's responsible for every life saved in New Orleans due to the the action of the Government aid NOW. He's responsible for every Truckload of federal aid, he's responsible for every home to be repaired. He's responsible for every evacuee.
He's responsible for every federal dollar sent to Indonesia following their catastrophe.
He's responsible for trying to implement "No Child Left Behind" to fund schools/education.
Oh and then he's certainly responsible for Palestine having a state and Israel's withdrawl from the Gaza Strip.
Now, I'm no Bush fan, but I'm posting the opposite of your "Bush is responsible for every bad action since inaguration" with something to show how ------ it is in my opinion to post something like that.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:inanimate adjective - possessing none of the characteristics of life that an animal or plant has --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is a hurricane alive?
I didn't think someone could misunderstand a dictionary. I was wrong.
Do you know what the characteristics of life are vs. being alive?
Here's another question for you. Is an "animated" film alive? Is a robot that is fully "animated" alive?
Your little reference has the sentence: He looks at me as if I'm an inanimate object.
Do you know what an "inanimate object" is?
Are you actually claiming a hurricane is an "inanimate object"?
posted
You know what? I refuse to converse with you anymore until you're capable of discussing something without being rude. I never understood it when other people would try to argue with you in serious threads, and here I go doing that twice in one day. Won't happen again.
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Mmmm. . . not sure how the President can take all the blame. I'm not sure why Nagin and the LA governor are on the ticker-tape end of this parade, since it is their state and town that was devastated, and their specific oversights (school busses not used in the evacuation, no police boats provided) that allowed the devastation to reach such proportions.
I wonder if we are seeing the development of a new federalism? So many people are blaming the feds for their mistakes in this tragedy-- but the planning and much of the power for disaster relief HAS to come from the state.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Disaster relief and prevention on anything approaching this scale is one of those things that no state can manage on its own without maintaining a tax burden far above those states which do not need such preparations, or a significantly lower level of services.
That is why there is not a single state in the union which does it all by itself, with the possible exception of california and its very large tax base to spread costs among. The federal government steps in everywhere because it makes sense for the federal government to do so as a representative of the collective, whose duty it is to protect against not just enemies foreign and domestic, but human and natural.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
And I think few people have been trying to give the President all the blame, but when federal funding for major hurricane protection and flood prevention projects has provably been dropping dramatically and being attributed along the way to the increased costs of the war in Iraq, its pretty dang easy to see where some of the blame generally lies, and then to trace that to more specific sources.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:I never realised a somewhat questionable use of an adjective could destroy a whole, much lengthier argument.
I was thinking the same thing.
quote:He's responsible for every home rebuilt and life saved in Florida due to their hurricane's last year. He's responsible for every life saved in New Orleans due to the the action of the Government aid NOW. He's responsible for every Truckload of federal aid, he's responsible for every home to be repaired. He's responsible for every evacuee.
Yes, but it's easy to take responsibility for good things that happen. If Bush ever doesn't want to, I'd be more than willing to do that. America doesn't even have to pay me.
But in an era where failures seem so plentiful, who is going to take responsibility and be held accountable for that which goes wrong? If we aren't holding people accountable at the level where changes can be made to fix the things that went wrong, and instead blame lower levels of government or forces of nature, then those mistakes are going to repeat again and again in one form or another. Writing off problems as "Katrina's fault" simply means changes will not be made and we will once again be met with the same troubles the next time a catastrophe occurs - after all, we won't convince nature to change her ways, no matter how much we place the responsibility to change on her.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
To Rappin' Ronnie Reagan, you weren't conversing, you were trying to attack and discredit me by quoting a dictionary, which you misinterpreted, and I called you on it, to which you took offense.
So you trying and failing to make me look bad, which actually resulted in you looking bad, is my being rude?
I apologize for pointing out your mistake, and I'll accept yours for attempting (and failing) to do the same to me, as long as your willing to offer it.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Actually, she's the one who read the dictionary correctly, Chad. Inanimate is not always the opposite of animated, which has as a special meaning moving cartoons. And yes, an animate robot does have some of the characteristics of life, whereas a hurricane does not, despite often being anthropomorphized. Movement is not sufficient for being considered animate, nor lack of movement necessary for being considered inanimate.
Its a bit of a peculiar usage in respect to a hurricane, but perfectly correct.
As she was merely politely correcting with a source your incorrect attempt to undermine her argument, you're the one who got rude first.
Not to mention that even if she had misused the word inanimate it would have nothing to do with the weight of her argument, and that you think so reveals the depth, or lack thereof, of your understanding.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:As she was merely politely correcting with a source your incorrect attempt to undermine her argument, you're the one who got rude first.
Fugu you are wrong as she didn't just "politely" post the dictionary quote, she added the:
"Are hurricane's alive?"
Which is similar to my questions to her, which she took offense to.
And fugu, a Hurricane is indeed an animate object as it moves which is a property of life from the microbial upwards. In fact the dictionary says it has NONE of the characteristics of life to be "inanimate".
A rock sitting on the ground is "inanimate" (unless you take the earth rotation into account). If you pick it up and throw it at someone, then it is no longer "inanimate" is it not?
The dictionaries I know have inanimate as the opposite of animate.
Dictionary.com
Fugu, it was a nice attempt to defend her, and to try to attack me (do you even realize this?), but in fact she was wrong. And so are you. I'm sorry.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
You've illustrated yourself one problem with trying to use motion as the determinant. Also, here's a conundrum for you: living things can also sit still; therefore everything sitting still is animate.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Also, have you yet bothered to talk about how
quote:From dictionary.cambridge.org:
quote:Is a hurricane alive?
Constitutes an attack? You say it does, but for some reason I don't see it. Perhaps you could point out the aspects that make it an attack instead of a mere disagreement? If you want, I can go through your post in response and point out how it was an attack.
And yes, I feel no particular problems with attacking you, Chad.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
*sigh* Apparently you still misunderstand how words can have multiple definitions.
As for your attempted weasel-wording, the atoms in everything are moving at the atomic level, therefore everything is animate!
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Constitutes an attack? You say it does, but for some reason I don't see it.
As I am sure you see my response wasn't an attack either since it asked the same type of question just multiple times of her.
Quite simple really.
Also could you please distinguish which "she" we're talking about here as we have Tresopax and Rappin' Ronnie Reagan who in my knowledge are two separate people and at least two separate posters but your posts don't differentiate between the two. They mention both posts by the two people and refer to the person as a collective "she".
It would help me to know who you are talking about specifically.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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You are welcome to disagree and believe that a category 5 hurricane with 175 mph winds that rip the roofs off of houses and knock down trees and kill hundreds of people is an "inanimate" object. And your welcome to believe that it's correct to call it so.
You killed your whole post by claiming "inanimate forces of nature" since I know of no forces that are "inanimate" in nature.
quote:Originally posted by CStroman: And if I may fugu. Let me answer your rebuttal thus:
Dictionary.com
quote:in·an·i·mate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-n-mt) adj. 1.Not having the qualities associated with active, living organisms. See Synonyms at dead.
2. Not animated or energetic; dull.
Grammar. Belonging to the class of nouns that stand for nonliving things: The word car is inanimate; the word dog is animate.
Main Entry: in·an·i·mate Pronunciation: (')in-'an-&-m&t Function: adjective
: not animate: a : not endowed with life or spirit b : lacking consciousness or power of motion.
CStroman, I agreed with most of the points you made, but when you attacked Tresopax's use of 'inanimate' as a way to destroy the argument, it didn't have any base; what's more, with this post, you proved her use of the word correct. There was never anything to take offense over in the first place, so just let it go.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
You know what, I agree and resolve myself to putting this thread back on topic which is about the open letter from the NO Times.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Why doesn't everyone just let bygones be bygones, as it were, and go back to the discussion at hand, rather than attacking one another? We're supposed to be a community, and doing such isn't going to help that.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Right: there should be someone with authority to make the evacuation mandatory; to order the buses used to make it happen; to allow use of troops in the state of Louisiana.
There is. It's the governor.
Why elect a President? To handle the executive branch on federal issues. These are not federal issues, and it is illegal for the President to do it unless the governor gives it her ok.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I'm not going to point all the blame at the governor or the mayor or the president or fema, etc. yet.
I am going to keep an open mind.
Yes things didn't go as I would have thought they should (and many thought) but I don't know the scope of what they were facing and it seems like there are alot of variables to consider. Such as 4 states affected: Florida, Mississippi, Louisianna and Alabama, and other huge factors that make this unique.
I do have some tough questions for both the governor, mayor and fema, and the administration.
I want to know what the plans of each were prior to landfall. And I want to know long term specific plans to each approach.
I also want to know chronology of government events.
It seems that because alot of people couldn't SEE the response, they assumed there wasn't one behind the scenes and already in progress.
I just want to know if they were doing all they could.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
At issue here to a large degree is that you can't mount a rescue from the area that was destroyed. The mayor can only prepare for a catastrophe within the boundaries of his city. The Governor can only prepare or respond to a catastophe from within his state.This article should give you a good feeling for why.
Now I haven't got a lot of information about the state level, but I do know that Mayor Nagin had asked for help improving the levees and such to prevent the city from flooding, but didn't get it. This particular scenario was described as being one of the three most likely tragic scenarios the federal government faced, but they reduced funding, rather than increased it.
Of course, New Orleans voted over 70% for Kerry, that couldn't have anything to do with it, could it?
There are two separate issues here. One was preparation, before the storm. This scenario was predicted, but nothing was done to prevent it. Essentially, the government gambled and lost.
The other issue is response. Yes, it's reactive rather than proactive, but you don't have to worry about odds. When a city is being/has been destroyed, you don't wait around, you act.
The government waited around, while other agencies acted. The comparison is easy to see, especially for the people who are living it.
As far as blame is concerned, Bush certainly does a good job of pointing the finger at others. After the Northeast blackout a couple of years ago, Bush acted like heads should roll because for a couple of days we had to live without electricity. What a catastrophe! My ice cream melted and I sweated! Big deal. Power outages happen. We live with it.
But airplanes fly into the twin towers, and Bush waits 20 minutes (or whatever) to finish reading to an elementary school class, then flies around the country with his tail between his legs, acting like he was personally threatened.
And a Cat 5 hurricane bears down on New Orleans, and Bush is on vacation at his ranch, and doesn't send in help until it's too late for thousands who have died.
Sorry folks. If you can't see that Bush bears responsibility, you have blinders on.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Sorry, Glenn, if you can't even present an accurate story, you're one of the ones making political hay out of this.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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