posted
I was rather taken this evening with a mood that you guys are all correct. I get these moods from time to time, but tonight's was pretty deep and I found myself really contemplating, as Jason Isaacs so wonderfully put it in PotC, "all possible meanings of the phrase 'silent as the grave.'"
I really began to feel, perhaps for the first time, what it might mean, when my loved ones die-- when I die-- if there is nothing else. I honestly couldn't get my mind around the idea of nonexistence and, in fact, didn't really try, which I suppose says something by itself.
What quickly and deeply struck me was loneliness... that the relationships I have worked so hard on, whether failed or succeeded will all ultimately come to nothing. Love's appearence of transendence was all an illusion and the loves or losses I've had here, like all of my experiences, end with me. I suppose there's the bit of living on in people's memories and all, but certainly within 100 years everyone who knew me is going to be dead, too... and what will it matter to me, anyhow, in oblivion?
It's not exactly fear of that, really, so much as, again, loneliness. That these connections we make, however intense, are all ephemeral and, cosmically speaking, as pointless as the relations of the wasps I sprayed in my garage today.
It was interesting to note, in conversation with a friend about this, that the concept I found so distressing was actually the hope of Buddhists, as I understand it, Nirvana being an utter void of existence.
So to those of you that think this way most times, I pose this question in the interest of getting to know you and your thoughts more...
How does this idea affect you and how do you deal with it?
ok...so it's really two questions... and I'm espeically interested in corrections any Buddhists might have to my understanding of Nirvana.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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The realization you had tonight is the most logical conclusion to reach about the afterlife, but perhaps its also the least desirable conclusion.
With that in mind, its easy to see how the vast majority of people believe in an afterlife of some kind. The wishful thinking involved in wanting to believe that there is existance after death is, in my opinion, the basis for most people's "faith". They don't question whether its true or not, because the alternative of it being true is simply too hard to accept.
But accepting that this life is all we have does not necessarily lead one to despair. Those relationships you hold dear do matter, because they matter to you. Its true that they won't last forever, but you need to realize that something can be important, even when its not permanent.
I would go on about my own ideas on this topic, but I am getting very tired . Good luck on your voyage of rational thought!
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
When I taught Buddhism, I taught my students to think about Nirvana in terms of heaven/hell. Hell is here in Earth and Nirvana is when you escape that hell. I take it, some Buddhists dont however, that Nirvana is some kind of place where "this" existence is no longer what troubles us. It is a place of contentment and happiness thats hard to understand, mainly because the Buddha did not sufficiently explain it.
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:How does this idea affect you and how do you deal with it?
I've spent long nights awake in absolute terror of death. Not often, maybe once a year or so. But even when I was little and sort of thought of myself as a Christian, I think even then I had the idea of death as annihilation of the self.
I think it's a good thing about myself that I recognize this, and it's right to fear death. I think a lot of terrible problems in our world arise because people don't realize that death is truly terrible. (An extreme example is suicide attacks, but I also don't think people wouldn't be so indifferent to things like starvation if they didn't think there would be some justice after death for the unfortunate. Nor would they be as willing to give their lives in war, etc.)
Part of the way I deal with it is, funny enough, to tell myself a story that I have a lot of hope in. Maybe one day in the future humans will be able to prevent natural death and be peaceful.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
You can drive yourself insane with terror of death. You imagine the sound as the shovel of dirt hits your coffin. the infinate blackness of death.
But death won't be like that. Everything will simply stop. Think of all your memories from before you were born. Nothing. not blackness. No sense of time. Nor of loneliness. Nor that you were missing out on anything.
It's not even emptyness. It's nothing. Let's less than nothing. You have no conciousness to suffer, feel joy or anything.
posted
Xav: I'm not particularly theistic myself, but I don't think that belief in oblivion is necessarily "the most logical conclusion" for someone to reach. Certainly it is a logical conclusion, but asserting that the vast majority of theists believe what they do solely because they want to avoid questioning the possibility of non-existence isn't very fair.
In any case, I'm impressed that you're able to hold on to the idea that even though things might not be permanent, they might still have worth. It's something I struggle with fairly often.
Edit: Fie, I'm a slow typist. But I did want to say that The Pixiest and Destineer are right, you can make yourself crazy by thinking about what death might be like. I had a few years where I was constantly physically ill because I couldn't get such thoughts out of my head. I finally realized that I was thinking about it as if there was still enough left of me to percieve the nothingness; if it was true oblivion, there would be no me to understand that I didn't exist. *laugh*
posted
But the connections aren't pointless -- they're important to the other people, just as the other people are to you. We build our own meaning to life, we make it worthwhile for others by caring about them.
Sometimes that's not a lot to go on. I was just made rather bluntly aware that a lot of people I called friends in the past do not return the favor, and it's things like that that make me wonder whether I'm doing any good at all. But I know there are people who I do make happier by being here, and that's the important bit.
I don't really worry about what happens after death. I've pretty much always accepted death as the end, do not pass go, do not collect $200. I suppose it would be a lot harder if I'd believed in an afterlife to begin with. As it is, I believe this is the only opportunity I have to appreciate the beauty of our world and help others do the same, so I'd better give it my best shot.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
You know, I'm not sure how much I can help you. I too am of the belief that we are only given this one life. I'm pretty sure fate doesn't play much of a part.
If I were to die today I would not be content with what I have accomplished in my life. I am working hard right now to remedy that.
Concerning my relationships though, well, that is a different story. My mother and I have had some rough patches but currently are very close. The same goes for my dad and little brother. I live with someone I am madly in love with. I have two close friends. I could turn to anyone one of these people and know that they will hear me when I speak.
I work with cancer patients. Many of these patients are actively dying. They have told me I have made a difference.
I feel as if I have made some sort of positive impact on these peoples' lives. That is all I need. In your post you thought that none of your relationships will mean anything because no one will remember you in 100 years. I agree with only the second part of that. There is a good chance you'll only be remembered by some future relative doing a geneology chart. Is that important to you? It isn't to me. I feel that if I can be a good human being and make a difference in someone's life, then my life was worth it.
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote: That these connections we make, however intense, are all ephemeral and, cosmically speaking, as pointless as the relations of the wasps I sprayed in my garage today.
I don't know that I'm saying anything new, but I disagree with this. Thinking in cosmic terms, to me, is pointless. These connections are all that really matter. And not just the good things. The screwups matter too. I don't think it's just about making good relationships, although that's very important. I think it's just about living. About enjoying and loving and crying and hating. Because that is real. No matter how much life hurts sometimes- it is real. And to me, that means far more than some possible afterlife or God.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
A most basic point of Buddhism (as laid out by many of the early scholars) is that its not particularly worth wondering about what's "really real" or anything supernatural, that all that matters for now is reality itself, and the reality of the relationships we have and suffering we endure.
I think that philosophy's importance has nothing to do with whether or not one believes in anything supernatural.
Also, atheism doesn't really speak to the existence of lots of sorts of supernatural things, there could well be an afterlife (heck, it might not even be supernatural).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
At one point it seemed really scary for me to even think about death, though I did from time to time.
Then I realized that when I die it won't mean anything to me. It's game over. No reload. No secret leve. No nothing. So what if I won't (or will) be remembered? I won't be there to know it. If I've managed to help some people become better, then that's all the "remembering" I need, even if they don't acknowledge it or know it on a conscious level. Who cares? Not me, I'll be dead.
The biggest problem is when loved ones die. That would be hard. Nobody really close to me has died yet (phew), but when a friend of mine came close I was devastated. I think now I'm more prepared should something like this happen, but there's no sure way to tell until it strikes again. And yeah, I'll feel lonely when losing a connection like that, but has it never happened to you without that person dying? It has to me, several times. Not really the same thing, as I can always tell myself: "why don't I just send an email/give a call", but how many times do I actually do that?! Heh, don't know if I'm making sense here, or answering your question, I'm still not fully awake yet. Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Nirvana isn't nothingness. It's everythingness; it's joining with the universe.
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quote: But death won't be like that. Everything will simply stop. Think of all your memories from before you were born. Nothing. not blackness. No sense of time. Nor of loneliness. Nor that you were missing out on anything.
Actually, what scares me most is that my brain will continue to work for a few minutes following death, while it slowly starves due to lack of oxygen. I can't help wondering, as nerves and external inputs shut down, whether one is aware of death's approach at that moment -- and what it feels and "looks" like, if anything.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
What's the Monty Python quote? Ah, "There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he really doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not."
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Nirvana isn't nothingness. It's everythingness; it's joining with the universe.
Conceptually, those are very nearly the same thing to me and thus not much of a comfort. (Not that "comfortable" has ever been a necessary criteria of "true".) To me, both consist of a total loss of "self".
I believe that if we could see from a perspective outside our current space/time, we might be able to view our universe in all its dimensions. If this were possible, we would perhaps see, among the countless curves and twists of the grand and fantastic sculpture that is our universe, our own life indelibly etched in its fabric. We might see the entire arc of our life, or any part thereof. With sufficient magnification we might see even the smallest part of our life with perfect clarity down to the quantum state of the individual atoms that define "us" at any given moment. It is all there in ways more complete than any of us can comprehend. In some way I'm not sure I can fully explain, I find this possibility comforting.
The fact is, no one knows what happens after death. Every speculation, hope, or declaration of the hereafter is nothing more than a mental exercise until we exerience it for ourselves. It is interesting to explore the possibilities, but it is pointless to worry much about them because picking one to believe isn't going to change the reality of what is to come. All we know is this life. Perhaps there is a new one to come, or some sort of continuation of this one. Perhaps not. We simply do not know. And to me, one aspect of true maturity is to realize that, and at the same time to realize that this uncertainty all amounts to the same thing: We live in the here and now, and here and now is the only time we know we can make a difference. We should be concerned with making our small thread in the fabric of the universe as beautiful as we possibly can. Though we may not be able to choose the beginning of our thread nor its end, we can learn to choose its color and the way in which it is woven.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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For me, speaking about death is difficult. Not because I'm afraid of it, but because I have so little experience. Anything I say might prove to be untrue as a I approach my own death.
With that in mind, I'll outline my little theory of death. I'm not afraid of it - remember, I've never faced it so I might be afraid when the time comes. But the idea doesn not bother me at all - and I don't understand why it would bother anyone. Death is, literally, the only event for which there are no consequences. You will never, ever regret your own death; you will never suffer the pain of your own death. It is just going to sleep.
If you can't possibly regret something, why would you be fearful of it in advance?
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I'm neither a Buddhist nor a non-theist, but as I understand it, "Nirvana" in Buddhism is only nothingness insofar as the universe as a whole is nothing. In that way, by becoming nothing you are also becoming a part of everything, because everything is nothing. I think Buddhists see the universe as a transient thing that is to be viewed as a whole, and consider dividing it into individual things as being problematic. Thus, by no longer being individual, at death you'd join everyone and everything in a more natural, peaceful state. This is what I interpret the religion as - so I'm sure real buddhists could explain it a lot better.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I know very little of Buddhism, but I agree that there is very little difference between nothingness and "everythingness". Either way, it seems an apt description of the old Catholic formula, "remember, man, that you are dust, and to dust you shall return." It's interesting to me because it is a mystification of what, on the surface, actually happens-- we return to the universe, feeding our life's energy back into the system.
I also appreciate what all of you said about being in the moment and focusing on what's going on now... and I note again that from the little I know (supported by what was posted here) that is a major theme of Buddhism as well.
Fear of death isn't really preoccupying me here, though I can see how it would. I can grasp the idea of non-existence... that there's just nothing... intellectually, but I cannot imagine it. I expect it's a contradiction in terms to imagine not being... perhaps this is the source of the paradoxical nature of Zen meditations ("what is the sound of one hand clapping?")?
Again, the thing that struck me was the loneliness of knowing that, ultimately, all relationships dissolve. There is always a divorce, a parting, an irreconcilable difference. all good things, if there is nothing more, really do come to an end... and not in the sense of their fulfillment, but in the sense of their destruction.
I think I begin to see why Hope is a cardinal Christian Virtue. Is it near a vice for Buddhists (trying to give up striving and desire)? Not sure.
Regardless, KarlEd's last paragraph was, I thought, rather beautiful.
And TomD's last paragraph reminds me of hearing that people survived for up to a minute after being guillotined...
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote: I think I begin to see why Hope is a cardinal Christian Virtue. Is it near a vice for Buddhists (trying to give up striving and desire)? Not sure.
It's not a vice, per se, but it is something to be dismissed. To a Buddhist, the universe is the way it is, and hoping or wishing that it were some other way when you or anyone else lack the power to change it is a waste of effort that would be better spent elsewhere. The idea is that hope is ultimately an empty and pointless feeling; you change the things you can change, and you live with the things you cannot. To hope that the things you cannot change will change is almost guaranteed to be a distraction.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Not sure what it says about me, but to me it's a non-question. I don't think about it. I don't avoid thinking about it. When I die I'll stop, and that's it.
But the connections you make and the differences you effect are more important if this is all there is.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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