posted
I am the head of the junior high ministry at my church. We just started the youth group six weeks ago and it has been pretty slow going. My problem is that I have only two boys attending and they don't get along at all. Jay is a year older than Doug and picks on Doug. Doug is a challenge to deal with as well since all he wants to do is eat and play XBox (which we never do) while Jay can follow the topic and contribute in a positive way. So I have been stuggling with both boys individually but they never attended at the same time until last week. Jay was horrible to Doug the whole time even after I spoke to him about it privately. This week Jay came to group but Doug did not and when I mentioned it, Jay told me that Doug would not be coming anymore since he took care of that at school this week. He also said that Doug wouldn't leave him alone at school.
I am a junior high teacher so I know how to deal with behavior problems. I also have tried to use this as a learning experience for Jay. I spoke to him about it today and he always says the right things, but I can see him turning around and tormenting Doug at school tomorrow. I am going to talk to my pastor about it but since you all are so open with advice, I thought I'd ask you. What would you do in this situation?
quote: Jay told me that Doug would not be coming anymore since he took care of that at school this week
What does this mean? Poor Doug. Jay is probably just as pitiable in a certain way, but...
quote: Jay can follow the topic and contribute in a positive way
Is this really a matter of "can" or prefers to? I think a youth program is not just to get in the book learning, the youth should be developing bonds with role models besides parents. Which is not to say you do or do not do that. What do you consider your mission to be?
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posted
I think it means that Jay made sure Doug felt so unwelcomed that he chose not to come today. That was the impression Jay gave me. I am calling Doug's mom tomorrow just to see what's up. Doug is the reason we started the group. He is too immature for the high school group and too old for the elementary school kids.
As far as our mission, since we are just getting off the ground, I am really just trying to get a feel for the kids and see where they are in their faith right now. We have a topic each week and we discuss it as a group but we are also just getting together for fellowship to sing songs, play games, have snacks and do prayer requests. It's pretty informal at this point and adding more stucture would not work for either of these two boys.
Jay really does enjoy getting into the discussion. He is a smart kid and he has been involved with church in the past so he knows a lot more than Doug or some of the other kids. Doug on the other hand told me last week that he would never read the Bible since there was nothing good in there for him.
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Are there other youngsters who could be in the group? I mean, without taking them out of the groups they are in.
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There are other girls in our group but I might be able to have some of the boys in the older group to join us for a night.
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posted
A lot of people can have meaningful religious lives and feel intimidated by actually reading the Bible. I didn't really get it until I was 18 or so, and I was supposedly reading at a 12th grade level as a HS freshman. I mean, if he gave that reply in answer to "do you want to read the bible" that would be one thing. If he volunteered it in response to a more general conversation, that might be worrying.
Just trying to get more of an picture here, whose idea was it to make the group for doug? Which group would he have been in? Was Jay brought down from the older group? Because I imagine that might have been frustrating for him.
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quote:Jay told me that Doug would not be coming anymore since he took care of that at school this week. He also said that Doug wouldn't leave him alone at school.
What does this mean? If Jay torments Doug, why doesn't Doug leave Jay alone? Does Doug look up to Jay? Does Jay find him annoying or childish, and is that why he torments him?
One solution might be to try and recruit Jay to recruit Doug, acknowledging to Jay that he is at a more mature stage than Doug - that is, if Jay's tormenting is because he wants to distinguish himself from a kid a year younger than him. Another solution might be to get more kids Doug's age, thus changing the dynamic and giving Doug some support. But it all really depends on what exactly is going on, I suppose...
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More background: This is a start-up church that has only been open a year. The couple doing the high school group was asked if they were letting 6th-8th graders in their group but their group is more geared to older kids (and they are a very large group for such a small church) so they recruited me to do junior high. We started the group because now we have a need that we didn't have before. Doug's mom was one of the parents who initially asked for a junior high group. Jay is a new kid to our church.
The comment Doug made was in reference to a discussion we had on how to make good decisions. One kid said she could look in the Bible to find out the right thing to do and he scoffed saying why would he do that... you got the rest. He also does not know how to look up verses or anything so I am getting some student copies that are more user friendly and we will do some fun activities using them when they come in. The Bible is certainly intimidating but I want the kids to at least have a feel for scripture. This is the time to introduce more formal Bible study I think.
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quote: Does Jay find him annoying or childish, and is that why he torments him?
Yes, exactly. Doug acts very silly and while the girls tolerate his behavior, Jay eggs him on and makes it worse. The difference is that Doug has a harder time controlling his behavior than Jay does.
I am just not sure how I should handle the incidents at school that are possibly keeping Doug from group.
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posted
I hated youth group. I really hated it. The way they ran it was just not geared toward people like me. And I was picked on, too, so although I didn't just want to play video games, and had read the Bible through twice by the time I was his age besides reading from it a lot, I can sympathize with Doug. I was much more interested in the actual Bible stories and teachings than in talking about "the challenges we face today" or whatever the stuff was they wanted to do. Mostly, they played stupid games and talked about "temptations" that I was never tempted by. So I stopped going around 4th or 5th grade. Maybe if you asked Doug what he would like to get out of it, got him involved in the planning. What would he like to talk about? And then you could turn it around to the Bible again, in a more positive context. He probably feels like he's being forced to go and preached at. If you give him the tools to change his own attitude and experience, maybe he'd be more willing to participate.
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I wish I could offer advice, Mandy, but can't think of much that hasn't already been said. This age group you are dealing with is most difficult.
and if things are happening at school, outside of youth group, that you don't have any control over, that really complicates things. Because no matter what you do in group, you don't know what the follow-up is going to be during school time.
Obviously, you will have to talk with Jay more about the Christian (I'm assuming this is a Christian church) way to handle dealing with others, and that alienating Doug away from youth group is not the best thing for Doug.
posted
For what it's worth, as well. My kids love church youth group, at our present church. They didn't like it as much at our former church. And most of that has to do with overall tone and leadership of the group. So you can make a difference.
I'm assuming you have already talked with the leaders of the senior high group, who may have more experience in youth group leadership, for ideas on how to handle Doug and Jay? Does Doug or Jay have any outside friends who might also be willing to come attend youth group with them, thus alleviating the "Doug/Jay" conflict a bit?
posted
Thanks for all your comments (and keep 'em coming)!
I sympathize with Doug as well, I am trying to gear the group more to what the kids want and need but so far it has been exactly the kind of group you were describing. I will talk to Doug and ask him what more he wants (other than playing XBox).
This is a Christian church.
I have briefly spoken to the high school youth group leaders and I will continue to do that. I have asked all the kids to invite their friends. Doug says he doesn't have anyone to ask (*sad*) and Jay just moved here so he says he doesn't know anyone. I agree that having more boys involved should help.
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posted
I understand Doug's point of view if Jay is annoying but that just shows that Jay needs the program even more than Doug does.
I mean, if everyone in the group were totally compliant, of like mind, generous, caring for others, etc. etc. and perfect role models -- then what would you have left to teach them?
It is sad that neither feel like they know any other friends from school or wherever to bring along.
How many girls do you have in the group? Do you have to keep it separated by gender, or can you mix? Like could you have two groups of girls, and put Doug in one group, and Jay in the other, so they are interacting in a group activity with girls and not interacting with each other? So much depends on how your youth group is structured -- and it sounds like Jay needs a lot of structure.
posted
Wait.... if Jay eggs him on how is it they aren't getting along? And what are these girls that put up with them if they're the only two in the class. I'm probably just confused.
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posted
She's saying there are only two guys in the group. Not that is the total group -- the rest are girls....
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quote: Tom, please don't bring your anti-Christian opinions into this thread. Please.
It's not an anti-Christian opinion. I'm just wondering why someone would open the Bible to look for lifestyle advice. It's not written as that sort of manual, unless you're a Jew.
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posted
Well gee Tom, I guess it depends on how you read it:
2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
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posted
Tom, those of us who try to live by the Bible's principles do indeed use it as a manual for lifestyle advice. I think you are well aware of that.
You are entitled to your opinions, I know. You are entitled to post them anywhere on Hatrack you want -- and there are lots of other threads that you do post them on if we have any questions about where you stand at all.
I am just respectfully asking you to not side-track this thread from the immediate need that Mandy has, since she's a fairly new user, trying to address a specific problem, and she is one that is trying to teach young people in her church to look for lifestyle advice through God's word in the Bible.
quote: she is one that is trying to teach young people in her church to look for lifestyle advice through God's word in the Bible
Okay, if you insist. But without one of those "youth Bibles" that attempts to file scriptures about modesty under "hair care" in the index, I'm not sure this is really a practical goal.
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And I see now about the only two boys. Oops. Maybe they should have to sit on opposite sides of the room.
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posted
LOL, We are in my tiny living room. And they are loud. Since the group is still so new we have between 2 and 6 kids a week so it is difficult ot do anything and have them not interact.
For Tom, I never told them to find answers in the Bible. One of the kids suggested it during a discussion on making good decisions. And it may have been Jay who said it come to think of it.
Jay that is one of my favorite verses.
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posted
*nod* I actually wondered whether it was something like that. In general, I always suspect people of saying that sort of thing in church groups out of sanctimony, and I worry that your Jay tends towards a combination of sanctimony and hypocrisy.
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posted
Mandy, it seems to me Jay enjoys persecuting Doug (or else he wouldn't do it). This sort of sadism drops out often at college age, I think (maybe new kinds come along?), but I don't think you can change Jay. Jesus can, and may...
I think you've got a problem you can't solve.
It might be nice if you had a man to help you; boys may do what you say (or not), but I think boys are more likely to use men as models. It should be one they can't think of as a wimp; nobody wants to emulate that. But you could be as drill-sergeant as possible, and I suspect they'd still just wait till you weren't looking and go back to it.
...and anywya, it still might well not work, if Jay really enjoys tormenting others.
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posted
Will - you have a good point. The more I read Mandy's first post, the more the relationships between Doug and Jay seems to reflect the type of relationship my two sons have to each other. They are opposite personality types, and just pick and bicker with each other constantly.
I used to constantly try to play peacemaker and mediator until I finally just realize that they ENJOY this banter and struggle. Maybe it's a guy thing. But they didn't really want me in the middle of it -- they had already established their own boundaries, and they were so used to the "rockiness" of their relationship that they are comfortable with it.
Luckily, for my sons, it does seem to be diminishing more as they are now out of high school and maturing.
If I had brothers when I was growing up, I might have recognized this earlier. But I didn't, so I was clueless as to how guys relate to each other.
posted
I think that sort of thing is a matter of status. The younger one wants to be like the older, while the older one wants to distinguish himself as having a higher status than the younger, resulting in the older one being annoyed by the younger and attempting to distinguish himself in the eyes of others through insults, tormenting, etc. And "the eyes of others" in particular includes girls his own age.
That's why I suggested trying to convince Jay to recruit Doug to the group, as a mentor to Doug as much as a peer. If Jay thinks this will make him more mature (and make him look more mature) then he might be inclined to want to do it - but that all depends on motivations I can't really guess.
I'd also not trust Jay's claim that he is the reason Doug didn't come that particular week. I think a lot of that kids age think everything revolves around them and is caused by them - even though it might just be Doug had something to do that day totally unrelated. You mentioned that Doug did not come before, so I'm guessing sometimes he has other things to do.
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posted
Tresopax, I agree. There may have been many other reasons that Doug did not come this week. But the whole idea that Jay thinks it was because of his behavior tells me there is something to be concerned about.
I really do appreciate everyone's comments! Thanks!
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posted
OK, I spoke to Doug's mom last Sunday and he just had other obligations that night and she said he would definitely be there this week (2 days ago).
Jay showed up a little early and Doug showed up soon after much to Jay's delite! He clapped him on the back the way boys do when they like each other and told me that he had told Doug to come this week. Evidently this week at school, they have gotten all buddy-buddy! YEAH! So this week things were much smoother. We showed Doug how to look up Bible verses and now he wants to read them all!
I am restructuring the evening so we do Bible study first and then a snack and then fellowship time. We have been doing snacks and fellowship time before the Bible study and then they have a hard time focusing towards the end and we can't ever seem to get done. Now they have something to look forward to after the Bible study. The kids have actually asked to do traditional Bible studies since only 2 of them have really grown up in the church. All the Bible stories they have been exposed to are Veggie Tales (which I love) so we will be going in that direction now. Thanks again for all your comments. This newbie appreciates them!
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quote:He clapped him on the back the way boys do when they like each other and told me that he had told Doug to come this week.
I am glad it worked out.
I must admit that I am thinking of the opening scenes of The Sixth Scene. We're sure Jay isn't Tommy Thomasino?
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