posted
First I want to say that I agree very much with Belle's second paragraph above. I think that is perfectly reasonable.
Senoj:
quote:The benevolent dictator. How Platonic
Surely you aren't making a serious comparison between what I wrote and a "benevolent dictator".
quote:Why should how many are checked out be the metric (or the librarians sense of "archival value")? What makes that decision choice theoretically better than say the book that is in the worst shape, or the one most people find offensive, or any other criteria or mix of criteria.
Because there is no loss in tossing a book that isn't being read anyway. I put in the part about "archival value" to recognize the possibility that there are some "classics" (by whatever definition you choose) or other works that might be missed in the future even if they haven't been checked out in 20 years. For instance, I'd toss a 1972 edition of Writer's Market before I'd toss an un-read copy of Mein Kampf, or Catcher in the Rye, or The Bible. However, I never said such determination was the sole provenance of the librarian. I'd support a community elected library committee that would make such determinations.
As for a book in bad shape, well, if it's in bad shape it's likely it is popular and therefore in high demand. (If no longer, then it falls into the "not checked out" category), but you're too smart to not really see why how often a book is checked out is a better indicator of its value to the community than whether it is in bad shape.
quote:I'm fighting harder than I want to.
I feel this is the case in several of your posts, (and you only have 33 at this count). It would be more helpful to meaningful dialog if you would, for instance, explore some of your ideas (like which metric would be best) rather than just throwing half-formed rebuttals. (Note: I'm not saying all your posts are half-formed, sometime they really make me think. But your post I'm quoting in this post doesn't seem to have given my post proper consideration. It's like you read it just long enough to come up with a zinger or two. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
I feel this is the case in several of your posts, (and you only have 33 at this count). It's like you read it just long enough to come up with a zinger or two.
I edited out the nice parts; I appreciate you trying to soften the blow (even if it did sound condescending).
I'm sorry you feel that way Karl, I certainly never intended to be flippant or half-baked or to zing anyone, during any part of the thread. Sorry if it read that way. I'll try to be fully-baked in the future.
Would the same principle hold (back to the discussion) if I told the librarian that I don't feel she should order a particular book. Let's say HP7 is coming out; should I be able to say to my local librarian, "I think the library shouldn't order HP. It's a lousy book, and we can better spend money and space on more OSC." And should the librarian listen to me (not to the exclusion of others).
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
I feel this is the case in several of your posts, (and you only have 33 at this count). It would be more helpful to meaningful dialog if you would, for instance, explore some of your ideas (like which metric would be best) rather than just throwing half-formed rebuttals. (Note: I'm not saying all your posts are half-formed, sometime they really make me think. But your post I'm quoting in this post doesn't seem to have given my post proper consideration. It's like you read it just long enough to come up with a zinger or two.
Karl, that was pretty contemptuous and condescending at the same time. I'm sorry if you feel my arguments are half-formed, but I did try to read each post thoughtfully and thoroughly and respond appropriately. I certainly tried to be respectful, and never intended to zing anyone. I'm sorry if it appeared that way. I will try to be more sensitive in the future.
Back to the discussion, should I be able to suggest to my librarian prior to acquisition that certain books are not appropriate for our library. Let's take number three on the list of most challenged books, "Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture." This is widely panned as sloppily researched, inaccurately reported, and poorly written (*Disclaimer: I have never read it). Would I be justified in saying to the librarian, "Don't purchase Arming America. It's supposed to be a poor quality book. Our library should spend it's money and space on more OSC instead?"
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:In such a case, a wise librarian would keep a list of least checked out books and see which ones of those are least likely to have archival value for the community that the library services.
Libraries do this to prioritize shelf space. In fact, the reason many libraries don't want you to put books back on the shelf by yourself is so that they can log how often books are looked at, even if they aren't checked out.
There is a physical limit to the size of the library, so when space is short, they get rid of books that no one has read. I have a hard time with anyone who calls this process censorship.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: Originally posted by andi330: I do have the right to read that book.I don't think you do have the right to read that book. That book has a right to be read. That's free speech. But the state has no obligation to connect you with your preferred reading material.
Actually, as an adult (and I realize that probably none of you has ever met me so yes, I am an adult) I have the right to read whatever I would like. You have the right not to read books that you don't like and/or police the books that your children read. You also have the right to tell me that you don't think that I should read a book and give reasons for why you think I shouldn't.
I have the absolute right not to take your advice. If I read a book that you think is inappropriate or that I shouldn't read then, as an adult, I have no one to blame but myself if I don't like it and/or find it to have the inappropriate content that you told me it would.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Gansura: Speaking of which, I'm concerned that Farenheit 451 isn't on that list.
I remember being forced to read that in Junior High School.
I recall is struck me as being very trite and forgettable. Not one of Bradbury's better works.
Then we were forced to watch a weird, vaguely European film adaptation of it. Featured thousands of scenes where lead characters looked at their reflections in the mirror, touching themselves like they were in the early stages of masturbation.
It grossed the entire class out.
We only liked it when the old lady set herself on fire.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: Karl, that was pretty contemptuous and condescending at the same time. I'm sorry if you feel my arguments are half-formed, but I did try to read each post thoughtfully and thoroughly and respond appropriately. I certainly tried to be respectful, and never intended to zing anyone. I'm sorry if it appeared that way. I will try to be more sensitive in the future.
I can see where I came across as condescending, but that was probably born of trying not to sound contemptuous, which I certainly don't feel. And in reading back just now in order to form this reply, I believe I was (uncharacteristically, I hope) condescending. My response was a bit harsh, too, considering the presumed (on my part) degree of offense. I appologize. I suppose I didn't give your " " proper weight, too. Anyway, I do read your posts more carefully than some other posts, largely because you come across as well considered and knowledgeable, even if I disagree with you at times. I try not to be flippant, so I'm probably a bit quick to take offense when I perceive someone else being flippant, especially someone who appears to use language precisely.
quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: Back to the discussion, should I be able to suggest to my librarian prior to acquisition that certain books are not appropriate for our library. Let's take number three on the list of most challenged books, "Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture." This is widely panned as sloppily researched, inaccurately reported, and poorly written (*Disclaimer: I have never read it). Would I be justified in saying to the librarian, "Don't purchase Arming America. It's supposed to be a poor quality book. Our library should spend it's money and space on more OSC instead?"
Sure, you can suggest anything you like. For myself, I'd ask if I were making such a suggestion because I really felt better things were being overlooked or if my primary motive was censorship. If the latter, I think it is largely wrong to pursue the matter. But no one knows your motive but yourself and I certainly don't think anyone should be prohibited from suggesting that a certain book might not be as beneficial or valuable to the library or the community as some other book.
But if I were a librarian, I'd take such suggestions with a grain of salt. I doubt even .01 percent of library patrons have any idea how the budget is being spent and what funds are available to purchase new books. I'm guessing that almost all requests in the form of "please don't stock this book" are motivated by desires to censor. That is a prejudice on my part, sure, but I think it's valid. Were I a librarian, my prejudice might change as I would be working more from facts than suppositions.
But let's take your specific examples. Were I a librarian and you asked me to not stock HP7, I'd see that we had 5 copies each of HP1-6 and they were all checked out at the moment and some even on reserve. I'd probably decide from that that HP7 will be a book in high demand and well liked by people other than yourself and I'd probably stock it anyway.
As for Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture, I'd check to see if it had been requested by anyone else. I'd ask you if you knew of any good book on the same subject that might serve as counterpoint to the arguements in Arming America, and I'd probably make sure both books were on the purchase list. Then I'd make a display poster putting the two titles side by side and inviting patrons to read both books and decide for themselves. Nothing spurrs a desire to read like a good controversy. But I'd also take note of your desire to see more OSC and I'd see if there was anything we didn't have and if room could be made on the budget to accomodate those books. But even if the arguement were overwhelming that we needed more OSC, I doubt I'd bump Arming America specifically on your request alone. (Of course any library I was in charge of would probably have all the OSC books already, with most of them on a "Recommended Reading" shelf. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by andi330: I have the right to read whatever I would like. You have the right not to read books that you don't like and/or police the books that your children read. You also have the right to tell me that you don't think that I should read a book and give reasons for why you think I shouldn't.
I have the absolute right not to take your advice. If I read a book that you think is inappropriate or that I shouldn't read then, as an adult, I have no one to blame but myself if I don't like it and/or find it to have the inappropriate content that you told me it would.
I agree with everything you've said here. My only contention is that the library is not intended, nor should it be viewed, as fulfilling the right of its patrons to read any specific book. Maybe Camus was right that the heart of this debate is about the nature of the library.
My view of a public library is a collection of the best books available, as determined collectively by the community. Books so important that the citizens of a municipality got together and bought a collective copy. A library shouldn't serve the desire of an individual for a book; it should reflect the sensibilities of its community in collecting the best books and making them available to all. Just because you want to read a book, doesn't mean the library should buy it for you, or shelve it for you. I just don't think that's what libraries are for.
So when you say I have no right to prevent you from reading a book, I agree. But I also have no obligation to provide you with that book, and neither does the library.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Gansura: Speaking of which, I'm concerned that Farenheit 451 isn't on that list.
I remember being forced to read that in Junior High School.
I recall is struck me as being very trite and forgettable. Not one of Bradbury's better works.
I found it much more interesting and much more meaningful the second time through. The first time I read it, it seemed much to obvious an allegory.
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
#3 on the 1990-2000 list is "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"
I would submit that an even better form of censorship is pure denial. My mother (who has a Master's degree in education) had never heard of Maya Angelou before yesterday (much to my shock). However she loves #96, which is "How to Eat Fried Worms"
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: you can suggest anything you like. For myself, I'd ask if I were making such a suggestion because I really felt better things were being overlooked or if my primary motive was censorship. If the latter, I think it is largely wrong to pursue the matter. But no one knows your motive but yourself and I certainly don't think anyone should be prohibited from suggesting that a certain book might not be as beneficial or valuable to the library or the community as some other book.
But this is my whole deal. The ALA says, once a book is on the shelf we oppose any effort to take it off. To me the librarians are saying we will not reconsider our choices, regardless of what any patron or set of patrons might think of them. And that just seems wrong to me.
Your scenario of creating a competitive readership by placing two opposing books side by side is interesting; I'll have to think about it some. Initially my reaction is that there are books worth reading and books not worth reading. Why should a library encourage its patrons to read something vapid and pointless? There are good books about gun control and gun culture (presumably); why spend resources promoting ones that aren't good?
P.S.- I appreciate the concillitory tone of your last post. I'm sorry if I got huffy. I appreciate the nice things you said about my posts. I also find your responses generally thought-provoking and well written, which may be why I took offense. Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
I see your points about vapid and pointless books, but my point is that such designations are either entirely subjective, or even if correct nearly always offered by less than authoritative sources. In other words, you can tell a librarian that you think the book should not be there since it is vapid and pointless. That is your opinion. It might be the general consensus, it might not. A librarian, though, can't really be expected to be an expert judge in all fields. Or in any particular field for that matter outside of Library Science. I know I wouldn't want my local librarian to be the sole judge of what is vapid and pointless or worth me reading. I wouldn't want my librarian to take the word of every Joe Reader who may or may not have an axe to grind as to what is and isn't OK to stock. On the other hand, I might appreciate a librarian who told me the book I was checking out (or looking for) was generally found to be shoddily researched and I might find better information in <book>.
My policy would be to err on the side of freedom of access to and dissemination of ideas from all sides and let the interested parties decide for themselves what they will and won't read, but not what others can and can't access via the library. (Within the confines of budget and shelf-space, of course.)
In my experience, nearly every attempt to silence dissent (even stupid dissent) only leads to an atmosphere where the truth is more obscured rather than revealed.
On a related issue, how do you feel about inter-library loans? Most states I've lived in have a policy of moving books from one library to another within the state (and some even do this interstate) by patron request. If you feel you have the right to ask a library to remove a book from its shelf, do you also have the right to ask the librarian to keep it from being available via inter-library loan?
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: If you feel you have the right to ask a library to remove a book from its shelf, do you also have the right to ask the librarian to keep it from being available via inter-library loan?
No, I would not claim to have that right. I think this goes to the heart of my feelings about what purpose public libraries serve. The books on the shelves should be books deemed so important, we as a cummunity purchase a copy so everyone can access them. Another community will (and probably should) have a different list of important books. Public libraries should be a reflection of the community's standards and values.
If some other library has deemed a book essential, and purchased a copy, I have no problem with my local library distributing it, regardless of content.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The problem is, in most cases, the way a book becomes "banned" is that a challenge is taken to the local library board/council for the county/city/municipality by a large group of people. If it becomes enough of an issue, the library board/council will probably hold hearings to determine if the book should be removed. If a challenge is taken that far by a group of people and the library board/council determines that the book in question should be removed from the shelves, they aren't going to remove it from just the one branch. They'll have it removed from all the branches under their jurisdiction.
So, it's not simply a matter of asking your local librarian to remove a specific title from your branch's shelves. To actually have a book banned it will be removed from every branch in your area.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The above then does become governemental censorship of a written work. This is because a board of people either elected or (in many cases) appointed has made the decision to remove said written work from their shelves thereby restricting access to it. Yes it can still be purchased if someone wants to read it, but the government has still deliberately restricted access to it, not simply not had the book available because there weren't enough funds and/or shelf space to stock the book.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just want to clarify: Does anybody think that we should apply the establishment clause to library book selection?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I just want to clarify: Does anybody think that we should apply the establishment clause to library book selection?
Well, I'm not really sure how that would work, exactly. What do you think would be right/wrong or useful/troublesome about doing that?
Not to sidestep the question, Dag, but as far as an informed opinion goes, I'm much more interested in your opinion on that than in my own.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it should be utterly irrelevant. That is, any type of religious material should be available in the public library, even material of a purely proselytizing nature.
But I don't think it should receive any preference in the selection process, either. Certainly the Bible in various translations, the Koran, and the core scriptures (or analog) for most religions should be present, just on an informational basis. But I think a real analysis based on both popularity and usefulness as a reference would arrive at that conclusion.
For other types of religious works, the same type of decision should be made as for any other type of work: how many people will read it, does it contain important reference information, does it ensure a particular topic is at least covered by the library materials, etc.
I'm just having flashbacks to a forum I participated in as an undergraduate on the NEA and censorship. One of the participants said refusing to fund art based on content was censorship and that certain anti-religious works should have been funded. But in response to a question from me, he said that religious works of art should not be because of separation of church and state.
That attitude scares me. I didn't pick up on it here, but I wanted to broach the subject.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well I agree with everything you wrote there.
As for the NEA, well, you certainly can't have it both ways. If you can't censor art because of content you shouldn't be able to censor it for religious content, either.
Personally, I think money corrupts artistic expression, especially in a field where notoriety has come to be the more common measure of success than say, creativity or artistic merit.
I'd much rather see NEA grants used to bolster community art education programs and art centers rather than individual artists. That's probably been debated at Hatrack before, though I don't recall a recent discussion. New thread?
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
" proper weight, too. Anyway, I do read your posts more carefully than some other posts, largely because you come across as well considered and knowledgeable, even if I disagree with you at times. I try not to be flippant, so I'm probably a bit quick to take offense when I perceive someone else being flippant, especially someone who appears to use language precisely.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
