quote: But that era faded -- the time when James Taylor and Carole King and Joni Mitchell and Dan Fogelberg and Janis Ian and a few others (never very many) could write and sing songs that were truthful and beautiful and clever and moving, and find a huge popular audience.
Such music was overwhelmed by disco and punk and then buried under rap, hip-hop, and alternative, all of them increasingly anti-musical and anti-lyrical.
(And don't bother writing to me your bitter complaint that rap is too musical or that alternative "reinvented" music. All these movements explicitly abandoned sentiment, melody, and form, and the fact that a few good musicians have managed to rise out of the swamp to create good songs says more about persistence of talent than about some hidden qualities that these genres possessed.)
First off, I find it amusing that OSC uses the fact that, in his opinion, there aren't very many good hip-hop songs to prove that there's a fundimental flaw in the genre, since a musician must be extraordinarily gifted or lucky to "rise out of the swamp." Yet, in the paragraph describing his beloved singer-songwriter genre, he admits that there are just as few people who are able to make good music out of a supposedly superior style. The logic escapes me.
quote: rap...abandoned...melody and form
RESPONSE #1: So What? A great many of the musical innovations of the 20th century have been all about the abandonment of what have been traditionally considered melody and form. Minimalist music, ambient music, free jazz... all these are forms that were initially laughed at for those exact reasons, but have ended up not only surviving, but radically reshaping the landscape and language of music. Without people like Claude Debussy, Igor Stravinsky, Erik Satie, LaMonte Young, Steve Reich, Philip Glass, Brian Eno, Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane, there's no way of knowing what any of the music we listen to would sound like.
Yes, there's still room for the kind of music that OSC prefers: a simple melody with not-too-intrusive and strictly harmonic instrumental accompaniment. But it's very difficult to find an album produced in the last few decades that isn't in some way influenced by people who experimented with abandoning traditional melody and form. If nothing else, many modern record production techniques leave an avant-garde stamp on the most traditional-sounding albums.
RESPONSE #2: It ain't necessarily so New musical forms are often accused of throwing away rules and becoming formless. But it's not often true. Even some of the earliest minimalist experiments were influenced by centuries of music from other parts of the world, and they were in many cases bound by incredibly rigorous rules. They only sounded formless because they were bound by rules that the western-trained ear couldn't immediately recognize. For just one example of this, go here and listen to the fascinating piece about "Drumming" by Steve Reich.
Rap music itself began, superficially, as people talking (or shouting) rhythmically. And in the minds of many people, that's still the essence of hip-hop, even after decades of musical evolution. In truth, there are dozens of hip-hop subgenres, many of them with deep theory and rich legacies. Rappers can perform with funk, punk or rock bands, gospel choruses, symphony orchestras, techno artists, or DJs drawing influences from widely eclectic sources to make an unrecognizable new product.
People who are used to judging music mainly by the vocal quality of a singer may have a hard time understanding hip-hop. In a lot of great rap, the actual rapping (the hip-hop analogue of the singing) is a very small part of what is going on. Often the most talented and successful member of a rap group is its producer. Take as an example, RZA or Dr. Dre, musical geniuses who wouldn't have even had a place in traditional groups. Kanye West, one of the most successful rappers currently on the scene, is acclaimed mainly for his composing and production skills. He's a good rapper and singer, but without his talents as a producer, never would even have got his foot in the door.
In other cases, DJs are the most talented members of hip-hop groups. In fact, some of the greatest hip-hop albums I have contain little to no actual rapping. People like DJ Shadow, DJ Spooky, DJ Krush and several others are making solo albums. Endtroducing... and Songs of a Dead Dreamer are two of the most critically acclaimed hip-hop albums of the '90s, and there isn't a single rapped line on either of them. They're made entirely by DJs, purely sample-driven hip-hop, and they're incredible. Tricky is a rapper, yet on his (critically adored) first solo album, most of the vocal duties were turned over to a singer he hired for the gig, while he focused on writing and producing. And the OutKast album The Love Below, which made many critics' lists of top albums of 2003, contained far more traditional melodies, jazz, gospel and other influences than actual rapping. If there's any doubt that there's more to rap music than rapping, listening to those albums should clear them up.
The music of rap can sometimes seem to be devoid of form, but if you listen closely it's absolutely swimming in it. Good hip-hop takes all the musical form found in just about any other style of music and makes it into something unique. And they're not just pirating superior styles; just like Gershwin, in composing Rhapsody in Blue, used jazz music to make something that was utterly classical, rap musicians use a wide variety of other styles to make their music, yet still stay true to their vision. Whether you're listening to G-Funk, with its funk and soul influences, trip-hop, with its downtempo techno and reggae, The Beastie Boys, with their punk rock and hard rock influences, Madvillain, with jazz and minimalist classical music (among other things) in the mix, Fugees, with their Carribean rhythms, the funk and gospel of Outkast or Kanye West, the house techno of The Streets, or even the eastern melodies and sound effects used in Wu-Tang Clan tracks, you'll find all manner of form if you're listening. This isn't even the beginning of a complete list... find a talented DJ, and you'll hear literally any style you can think of, and a great many you've never heard of, interpreted in ways that you'd never have imagined. If you've listened to very much rap at all, you can't even write it off as a single style, let alone a style without form or substance.
I was going to make another argument against the idea that hip-hop is anti-lyrical, but this has gone on long enough. I don't want to make it sound like I listen to nothing but rap, or that I don't agree that, like any other form of music, rap has produced a staggering catalogue of inane tripe. I just wanted to make it known that at least someone isn't ready to dismiss an entire culture that has spanned at least three decades and a significant portion of the earth's population as something not even worth considering.
I hope I'm not alone.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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OSC is completely correct. Rap, hip hop and the like cannot be considered music by any intelligent lifeform. I concede that the bouncy rhythm may be hypnotizing for non-intelligent life, though.
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I don't know. Some of it could be considered "music". Just not "good music", but then, that's a value judgement on my part. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Jacare Sorridente: OSC is completely correct. Rap, hip hop and the like cannot be considered music by any intelligent lifeform. I concede that the bouncy rhythm may be hypnotizing for non-intelligent life, though.
I can't tell if you're being sincere or ironic.
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I had the same thought, Speed...errr...about Jacare. I haven't read he article in question, but I appreciate the masterful job you did in answering it.
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I don't listen to a lot of hip-hop or rap, but I recognize that there's good music in those genres, and do listen to it (the good stuff).
As with most of his articles, I disagree and think he's catering to the very conservative audience of the Rhino Times. *shrug*
And I can't tell if Jacare's being sincere or not, either, even though I know he's conservative and Mormon. Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yeah, but saying that sincerely right after Speed's post makes him look really, really foolish. I think there's enough puck in him for it to be intended ironically.
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I'm not sure what he means by 'alternative' in that statement. I mean, 'alternative' has actually come to include late-era Willie Nelson and Johnny Cash. I mean, after Country went the Way of the Suck. But I never really went out of my way to listen to country, even when it was ... much less annoying.
We play some rap around my house, though mostly Old School. Chuck D is one of my heros.
Just last night we were singing, "I left My Wallet in El Segundo" in the car. *giggle*
But I'm still not sure what "Alternative" is.
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The way I look at it, if a large enough population considers it music, then it is music. Definitions of words change all the time based on the culture using it.
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I dislike whenever somebody pulls out the "This is not music" or "This is not art" statements. You don't have to like something for it to be music. It doesn't have to be remotely good music for it to be music. Something may not be music to you. Something may not be art to you. But you don't get to make that distinction for other people.
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: I dislike whenever somebody pulls out the "This is not music" or "This is not art" statements. You don't have to like something for it to be music. It doesn't have to be remotely good music for it to be music. Something may not be music to you. Something may not be art to you. But you don't get to make that distinction for other people.
--Enigmatic
Good point, didn't OSC in the same article, or another recent one say something about SCIFi/Fantasy not considered by some to be valid writing. Or something along those lines.
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Enigmatic- true enough, for the general case. It becomes a bit more problematic for art supported by public funds, though.
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Of course, we are neglecting the immensely impressive track record that uptight white guys have in recognizing the value in emerging styles of music.
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Jacare: I don't disagree but I wasn't referring to public funding. I was speaking of the general case, and I don't think the discussion was on whether rap music should have public funding or not. If the public is going to fund art then they certainly have input as to what art is funded. I suppose that debate is going to be framed in terms of is/is not art more often than good/not good art.
I like that we fund art, but that doesn't mean that every person who says "I'm an artist, I have art" should get funding for it.
While I didn't expressly say it in the previous post, I do also think that just because someone says something IS art or music doesn't mean that they get to make that distinction for other people, either.
quote: Of course, we are neglecting the immensely impressive track record that uptight white guys have in recognizing the value in emerging styles of music.
Squicky- are you a racist?
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quote:Such music was overwhelmed by disco and punk and then buried under rap, hip-hop, and alternative, all of them increasingly anti-musical and anti-lyrical...All these movements explicitly abandoned sentiment, melody, and form, and the fact that a few good musicians have managed to rise out of the swamp to create good songs says more about persistence of talent than about some hidden qualities that these genres possessed
That's a pretty ignorant statement. I think the statement "explicitly abandoned sentiment, melody, and form" is a complete falsehood. Believe it or not, sentiment still plays a very large role in the inspiration of music. Melody is subjective, but it's still there whether he can recognize it or not. Form? Does it have to be a specific form to be considered music? Anti-lyrical? I'd like to see him try to explain that idea.
I would also like to know what sample data he used in determining these facts. And scanning through radio stations listening to no more than ten seconds of a song does not count. Just because he hasn't heard all the great music in those genres doesn't mean they don't exist.
This attitude reminds me of the people that wistfully remember the days of their youth when everything was perfect in the world.
That's fine if he wants to think that way about music, but I wish he would stop passing opinions off as facts.
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quote:Good point, didn't OSC in the same article, or another recent one say something about SCIFi/Fantasy not considered by some to be valid writing. Or something along those lines.
Not only in this article but in many other things he has written. He is quite frequently discussing the Literary Elite who look down on genre novels. This does seem awfully similar to that to me.
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I'd take this more seriously if the sentiment wasn't shared by everyone in his age/class group and will be for the rest of all time. "Damn kids and their tin horn music".
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That said, I like some rap and hate most of it. But that's a matter of personal taste.
Card can say that "in his experience, he's never heard any rap that wasn't trash", and that's legit. But beyond that, he sounds just like my grandparents' generation dissing rock, or their parents' generation dissing swing. It's silly.
I dread hearing what's going to wind up being popular for my daughter. I'm hoping for a wave of nostalgia...
Oh, also, rap is hip-hop are not identical.
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I'm a liberal about 20 years younger than OSC, and I've got to say I agree with him on this one.
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quote:I was going to make another argument against the idea that hip-hop is anti-lyrical, but this has gone on long enough.
Just so you know, the fact that I didn't get around to making this argument shouldn't preclude anyone else from doing it. I figured I'd probably blown enough hot air after my musical analysis of hip-hop, but if anyone has any defense of rap's lyrical legacy, feel free to add it in here. I may even join in later.
And Romanylass, would you care to elaborate? I don't get much from statements that I'm wrong, but I do appreciate rebuttals and counter-arguments.
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For my part, I'm wondering which part of the alternative rock movement -- as big an umbrella as that is -- is "anti-lyrical." I'm assuming he's not speaking of Tori Amos, Ani DiFranco, Green Day, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Ben Folds, Soundgarden, etc...?
But hey, I don't like rap much either. *shrug* Everyone tends to like the music that they were listening to when they got the heck out of puberty.
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quote: posted September 30, 2005 04:04 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd take this more seriously if the sentiment wasn't shared by everyone in his age/class group and will be for the rest of all time.
quote:As with most of his articles, I disagree and think he's catering to the very conservative audience of the Rhino Times.
Neither of these apply to me, but I despise rap all the same and can't really see it as music. At most, a spoken word art form, and a bad one at that.
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You know, there are specific rap artists who are, at times, absolutely brilliant. While it's not a genre of music I generally enjoy, I think saying that it's not music at all is more than a little harsh. If anything, that argument can be made more appropriately about electronica/trance.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Here's the funny thing. Speed wrote this whole big post about why OSC's description was inaccurate. To my not unbiased eyes, he did a pretty good job too. I get that many older white, middle class people don't like rap, much like they didn't like jazz or rock or Elvis or the Beatles or Swing or that noise that crazy kid Mozart plays or that thing that those darn kids do with the beating of rocks on hollow logs when they ought to be worshipping the sun, etc. But didn't Speed write out an informed post about it that people could somehow include in the discussion if only in a peripheral sense. You know as opposed to the not particularly productive or interesting line of people saying "I, an unhip white person, don't like rap."
edit: It's the lack of specificity that gets to me. It seems to me that the situations is more like "I agree with the details of what OSC said." so much "OSC expressed a negative attitude towards rap. I also have a negative attitude towards rap. Therefore, I agree with him." In which case, Speed's post becomes not "Here are reasons why OSC's statements were inaccurate." but rather "I like rap."
quote:Originally posted by romanylass: Neither of these apply to me, but I despise rap all the same and can't really see it as music. At most, a spoken word art form, and a bad one at that.
Go listen to 'Battery' or 'Daylight' by Aesop Rock, or 'The Wind' by Atmosphere. If you want something less thoughtful but more jazzy try out Digable Planets. Like most music the rap that you hear on the radio is the junk that floats to the top. It's indicative of the overall problem in the music industry, not the quality of rap.
Posts: 58 | Registered: Sep 2004
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The talk of good/bad rap and crusty un-hip white folk made me bump this thread, where I'd posted some hip hop artists for those of us who live on a street instead of the street.
posted
I've never much cared for rap or hip hop (it usually just feels noisy to me), but Speed, I have to say that your commentary made me want to explore a bit -- all that stuff about the influence of other styles . . . although my very limited experience has been that a rap artist will take something I love and re-create it in such a way that I don't enjoy it anymore.
I think your comparison to early 20th century composers is a valid one, although I take issue with some of what they did.
My personal belief is that music is defined by what it says and how it effects someone. I'm not a proponent of breaking traditional rules for the mere sake of breaking the rules. Rather, if what I want to say cannot be said as clearly within the bounds of the 'rules' as without them, then by all means I will step outside the rules. I think too much of that musical movement turned into a sort of contest to see who could go furthest from tradition, who could make the strangest sounds -- not necessarily a genuine search for ways to express sentiments that otherwise could not be expressed. (I'll admit I can't make a very stong argument out of that -- I'm not really informed enough to cite specific composers or musicians, so take all this for what it's worth.)
quote: First off, I find it amusing that OSC uses the fact that, in his opinion, there aren't very many good hip-hop songs to prove that there's a fundimental flaw in the genre, since a musician must be extraordinarily gifted or lucky to "rise out of the swamp." Yet, in the paragraph describing his beloved singer-songwriter genre, he admits that there are just as few people who are able to make good music out of a supposedly superior style. The logic escapes me.
Having already made my broad, sweeping value judgement of an entire genre of music *sheepish grin*, I'd like to qualify my comments by saying that I recognize the lunacy of judging any entire category of music. My experience has always been that whatever genre I favor contains 95% coal and 5% gems. If I tend to find the gems in a-capella vocal music (for example) it's probably because I listen to so much of it. It's sheer volume. And this leads me to believe that I would find things in the rap/hip hop genres to which I would grow just as attached if I spent the same amount of time sorting through the crap as I do with other genres.
quote: Here's the funny thing. Speed wrote this whole big post about why OSC's description was inaccurate. To my not unbiased eyes, he did a pretty good job too. I get that many older white, middle class people don't like rap, much like they didn't like jazz or rock or Elvis or the Beatles or Swing or that noise that crazy kid Mozart plays or that thing that those darn kids do with the beating of rocks on hollow logs when they ought to be worshipping the sun, etc. But didn't Speed write out an informed post about it that people could somehow include in the discussion if only in a peripheral sense. You know as opposed to the not particularly productive or interesting line of people saying "I, an unhip white person, don't like rap."
Mr. Squicky, this was such a great commentary. Made me smile. (Especially that bit about the rocks and logs and the sun.) Also makes me apologize for my lack of specificity (is that a word?).
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:I write a column that asserts that I review everything. But I don't, actually. There are lots of things I don't review at all. What I concentrate on, except for big-budget movies and highly-touted books and TV shows, is reviewing things I like. If I don't like a restaurant, I don't mention it (with rare exceptions). If I don't like a community theater play, I don't review it. What purpose would it serve?
I wonder why he made the exception and reviewed an entire genre that he doesn't like. What purpose does it serve?
Certainly, no one is going to choose either to listen or not listen to hip-hop because of his review.
[ September 30, 2005, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Every once in a while I've noticed that OSC will slam something he admittedly has no experience with. The last specific incident that comes to mind is when Kill Bill came out. He said that he hadn't seen it, then listed several things about it that he hated, and said that it was a worthless film.
Maybe when he declines mentioning restaurants that he doesn't like, it's because he's actually eaten there. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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I don't like rap and can't really stand to listen to it for any length of time but I consider it music.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I have been trying(in vain)to find quotes from the beginnings of many styles of music and of particular musicians: jazz, Elvis, The Beatles, Dylan, rock and roll in general(even what we consider to be soft rock now)
Those genres/musicians had an incredible amount of flack when they first emerged.
I really like rap and hip hop. I heard a brilliant explanation/history of it on NPR a few weeks ago, and I was fascinated.
I wonder what OSC thinks of Indian music? Arabian music? Chinese music? It is not exactly lyrical or melodic, in the way we (Western hemispherians)are accustomed to music sounding. Does that make it non-music?
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I wish I'd heard that piece. I adore NPR... I haven't deliberately listened to any other radio station in at least a decade.
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