posted
(repost from craigslist - my apologies if it's been posted before)
01) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
02) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.
07) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
08) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.
Posts: 2245 | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
This is pretty clever, thanks for posting it.
It seems like the list's overall effect is highlighting the revelation that the opposition's argument pretty much just adds up to a slippery slope appeal.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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Interesting. I found it sort of churlish and misrepresentative. It doesn't advance the discussion of gay marriage-- it just makes fun of its opponents by setting up sarcastic straw men.
If that's the way that the matter is to be discussed, no wonder no headway is being made.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Isn't your reply "If that's the way the matter is to be discussed. . ." exactly the same kind of misrepresentation you find in the original post?
I thought it was pretty clear that it wasn't even an attempt at a reasoned, balanced arguement, but an attempt to be funny. Like most jokes, its funny to some people and not to others. I thought it was funny. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
It's always easy to see the error in arguments you write yourself, for positions nobody holds.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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So, you wouldn't mind a '10 ten reasons why Gay Marriage Should Be Legal' in the same vein as the initial post?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
I know this is a joke and everything, but I've gotta be honest, that kind of flippant Vegas marriage, or the idea that I keep seeing put forth of the benefits of a "practice marriage" (getting married fairly young for a couple of years and making all the mistakes so that you can do better in your "real marriage") really pisses me off. Marriage should be truly sacred and respected. I respect and love my wife very much, and she and I have no intention of dropping out like it's a crappy semester at college and you feel like changing your major. I'm a little sick of seeing marriage pissed on left and right.
Edit: Yeah, the above was worded rather clumsily, but I'm in class now and dont have time to change it. Hugs and Kisses, Uncle Dave
Posts: 2532 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Actually, I've heard people use the "people will be able to marry their dogs" argument proposed in all seriousness here on this website.
It happens pretty much every time the subject comes up. That and polygamy.
I have to say, though, that this particular list didn't make me laugh. Too... hm, I'm not sure what the word I want is.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
odsouls : It's funny, because I really live my marriage as something sacred, but it doesn't annoy me at all that it's not the case for everyone. Hubby and I built the sanctity of our marriage ourselves, we don't need anyone else's opinion for that.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
youre right. i got miffed over nothing. just irks me sometimes, that's all. I guess it's more that damned article i read about the benefits of having a "practice marriage" that put me in the red, and that britney spears thing just reminded me of it.
Posts: 2532 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: You might be right, Karl.
So, you wouldn't mind a '10 ten reasons why Gay Marriage Should Be Legal' in the same vein as the initial post?
I'd have to read it to know for sure. Maybe I would mind. Maybe I'd find it offensive. Maybe I'd even write a point-for-point reply as to why it was misleading and untrue, depending on whether I thought the mistruths were widely and/or seriously held.
What I wouldn't do is act as if it were a serious attempt at dialog, or imply that it was the best defense of its apparent "side" of the arguement. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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In all honesty, I never think Letterman-style "10 reasons why" lists are meant to be serious discussions of anything.
Posts: 74 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
"Did you hear about the (pick one: ethnic person/college alum/homosexual/redneck/priest/political figure)?
He was very stupid... hahaha!"
it is to be understood that those belonging to the group you are calling morons might take offense... and it's about as helpful to your cause (edit: which, BTW, I essentially support) as Howard Cosell's "little Monkey" comment was to his career. I think that's all Scott is saying. Or, at least, that's what I'd be saying if I were him.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alas, saying, in essence, "It's just a joke," does nothing for me. I defer to twinky and Bob-- next time, I'll just say, "Huh. I didn't find it funny."
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:It's not just unfunny to some. It is mocking of a pretty large group of people.
This joke is pretty clearly laughing at the group, not with them.
Fair enough. Does it violate TOS for the site? If so, have PapaJ remove it.
I find it funny because there is some ring of truth to it. Most rational opponents of SSM would reject the arguements it pretends to make, yes, but on the other hand most of the arguements it makes have been implied, if not outright stated many times over by some opponents of SSM.
Was it hilarious? No. Was in particularly clever? Not to me. Did I chuckle when I read it? Yes. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. Did I think "Take that ScottR! (or MPH or anyone in particular)"? No. Is it laughing at a group? I don't know that it is. It is certainly laughing at a certain mentality. <shrug>
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:It's not just unfunny to some. It is mocking of a pretty large group of people.
This joke is pretty clearly laughing at the group, not with them.
If you can't take being laughed at now and then, then I suggest you lock yourself up in a room with no windows for the rest of your life, it'll be safer that way.
If you think it's a ridiculous list then laugh right back at the author. You'll come out on top and you won't sound like a whiney cry baby.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Everyone chill! It's just a joke. Sarcastic and amusing to me, anyway.
And yes, I can also take a joke going the other way. I play World of Warcraft too much not to hear all the "you're so gay" jokes. They make me chuckle all the time. So does Eminem.
I am one of those people who is not easily offended by anything though, I'm sure that helps.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
It's not even attacking a belief, it's attacking a bunch of dumb, easily refutable statements. It's mocking statements that, to me, deserve to be mocked, but it doesn't mock a group of people or even a belief. I don't see the basis for making that claim.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Fair enough. Does it violate TOS for the site? If so, have PapaJ remove it.
quote:If you can't take being laughed at now and then, then I suggest you lock yourself up in a room with no windows for the rest of your life, it'll be safer that way.
quote:I find it funny because there is some ring of truth to it.
Now there's a good justification for racist jokes.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, katharina, but you generally seem to know very well what you are implying when you post, so I have to respond to the logical implication.
Was there a point to your post other than to subtly call me a bigot?
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Funny...I saw it as making fun of some of the "logic" presented in their arguments.
I've noticed that this seems to be a definite divide for a lot of people who disagree with me, and me.
If you make fun of my thoughts, I take that much more personally than if you make fun of my race, sex, or even family. Those things do not define me. The thoughts I have and the beliefs I hold are much more a reflection of me than any of those things and, hence, it hits a lot closer to home when you make fun of them.
I have seem many people here for whom this doesn't seem to be true... but I know nothing bugs the heck out of me than the implication that I must be an idiot or a bigot or whatever because I hold certain beliefs.
Which is why I have a lot of sympathy for Scott R here.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: It's not even attacking a belief, it's attacking a bunch of dumb, easily refutable statements. It's mocking statements that, to me, deserve to be mocked, but it doesn't mock a group of people or even a belief. I don't see the basis for making that claim.
It is not mocking easily refutable statments -- it is mocking people with a certain belief by putting those dumb, easily refutable statments in their mouths.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: quote: Originally posted by katharina: quote: I find it funny because there is some ring of truth to it. Now there's a good justification for racist jokes. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, katharina, but you generally seem to know very well what you are implying when you post, so I have to respond to the logical implication.
Was there a point to your post other than to subtly call me a bigot?
Or do you really find that there's a ring of truth to racist jokes? I can't think of any at the moment that have a ring of truth to them. Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:I find it funny because there is some ring of truth to it.
Now there's a good justification for racist jokes.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, katharina, but you generally seem to know very well what you are implying when you post, so I have to respond to the logical implication.
Was there a point to your post other than to subtly call me a bigot?
I didn't see it that way at all, Karl.
I saw it as this:
If the fact that there is a "grain of truth" to it is a justification for an offensive/mocking/mean-spirited/etc. joke, then that justification surely can be applied to racist jokes. But since we presumably don't think that racist jokes are OK, perhaps that's not a good justification.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Jim, But you're just restating the "You have to respect my opinions." argument, which I think is a really poor one. I don't consider saying that you can't show how someone's statements are invalid and even laughably so because it would hurt their feelings to be a legitimate statement. I don't think it's responsible or productive to relinquish quality in order to make sure people don't feel bad.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:If the fact that there is a "grain of truth" to it is a justification for an offensive/mocking/mean-spirited/etc. joke, then that justification surely can be applied to racist jokes. But since we presumably don't think that racist jokes are OK, perhaps that's not a good justification.
posted
porter, I've seen close approximations of all of those statements except the one about gay people having gay children made here at Hatrack by people who expected to be tatken seriously and in many cases were. I've seen all of them made outside of Hatrack.
I don't see the "putting words in people's mouths" here.
edit: Actually #9 is more strongly worded than I've seen here. So, that one too.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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However, let's not kid ourselves. Just as there are among the whole population of people who oppose legalizing SSM those who think that they're sinners, G-d hates em, all sorts of horrible names...
So to is there the assumption among many who support legalizing SSM that those who oppose it are ignorant, stupid, backwater, bigoted, superstitious rednecks. It's there, on both sides. I've had conversations with people who hold both viewpoints.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I'm dissapointed with the ten people at the top who apparently lost all their sense of Funny.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Funny...I saw it as making fun of some of the "logic" presented in their arguments.
I've noticed that this seems to be a definite divide for a lot of people who disagree with me, and me.
If you make fun of my thoughts, I take that much more personally than if you make fun of my race, sex, or even family. Those things do not define me. The thoughts I have and the beliefs I hold are much more a reflection of me than any of those things and, hence, it hits a lot closer to home when you make fun of them.
I have seem many people here for whom this doesn't seem to be true... but I know nothing bugs the heck out of me than the implication that I must be an idiot or a bigot or whatever because I hold certain beliefs.
Which is why I have a lot of sympathy for Scott R here.
That's interesting, Jim. To a certain extent I don't think that's true of me. I certainly laugh right along with people who call me a bleeding heart liberal pinko commie (or some variation on this theme), and indeed have been known to use such labels in a self-deprecating manner. I am very liberal, I skew toward the authoritarian side to the libertarian-authoritarian axis, and I'm an atheist... but I don't mind being made fun of for these things.
I'm sensitive on the subject of race, however, particularly given the growing anti-Arab sentiment in the Western world. I freely admit that I feel uncomfortable crossing the Canada-U.S. border, particularly in airports, because of my name and background... even though I look like a full-blooded caucasian. Disparaging remarks about race aren't something I'm willing to tolerate, and I don't give people who make them the benefit of the doubt as I do with people who disparage my beliefs.
On the other hand, there's a difference between good-natured humor and put-downs, and I don't find this particular list funny because I think it's the latter rather than the former.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:I don't see the "putting words in people's mouths" here.
Of course those stupid views represented in the top-ten have been said before. The list, however, presents the assumption that they're commonplace.
It suggests the idea that all reasons opposing gay marriage are equally stupid and bigoted, and thus so are the people who oppose gay marriage.
This is a topic as sensitive as abortion, really. Any such lists satirizing either side are going to be received just as poorly by the people being satirized.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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No one said those dumb easily refutable statements were made by Right Wing Christian Purists.
PS. What do you call Right Wing Christian Purisist in the USA? I can't think of your term?
PPS. Right Wing Christian Purists is not meant to be an insult in any way
I get the feeling a number of people who subscribe to a particular belief are feeling that they are being mocked because others are laughing at some particularly bad logic that hasn't been ascribed to the first group in any way.
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:If you can't take being laughed at now and then, then I suggest you lock yourself up in a room with no windows for the rest of your life, it'll be safer that way.
Wow.
I don't know why you're so shocked, did I sound too severe in my response?
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
I don't know, to me the whole list seemed kind of sarcastic...like they weren't really giving reasons why gay marriage should be illegal Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: Or do you really find that there's a ring of truth to racist jokes? I can't think of any at the moment that have a ring of truth to them.
I'm about to step into the middle of this big-time, so without further delay:
My best friends wife is half black and half Puerto Rican. She personally finds it extremely funny that her fathers family (black) loves fried chicken and watermelon, and will choose to eat thoese two items every chance they get. She doesn't consider this a racist observation because it's a cultural identifier to her. The fact that what is touted as a stero-type applies so evenly to a large section of her family amuses her to no end.
And I can't even repeat some of her riffs on her mothers family...
But my point is that a joke that touches on cultural sterotypes is just that, a joke. Will some jokes offend people? Of course they will, because in the end, a joke involves a group of people laughing at someone else. Even the most pc of jokes involving situational humour could indirectly offend people who may have found themselves in that situation before.
As long as the jokes aren't full of openly vitriolic hate, then my advice would be to laugh at what you find funny, and ignore what you don't.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:If the fact that there is a "grain of truth" to it is a justification for an offensive/mocking/mean-spirited/etc. joke, then that justification surely can be applied to racist jokes. But since we presumably don't think that racist jokes are OK, perhaps that's not a good justification.
This is it exactly.
Ok, I can understand that. On the other hand what I said was justification for why I found it funny, not justification for the joke itself.
Truth be told, it probably is a justification for why some people laugh at racist jokes even though they abhor racism. Not that they think racist jokes are OK, but humor is elusive and sometimes we laugh at things we shouldn't.
That said, I don't think there is any correlation between the joke at the top of this thread and a racist joke. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:If the fact that there is a "grain of truth" to it is a justification for an offensive/mocking/mean-spirited/etc. joke, then that justification surely can be applied to racist jokes. But since we presumably don't think that racist jokes are OK, perhaps that's not a good justification.
This is it exactly.
But that justification can't "surely be applied to racist jokes." The analogy doesn't work.
I also have to agree with Squick on the point that most, if not all, of these arguments have been made earnestly on this forum. Here is the list with the sniping removed:
quote:01) Being gay is not natural.
02) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay.
03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior.
04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all.
05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed.
06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children.
07) Gay parents will raise gay children.
08) Gay marriage is not supported by religion.
09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home.
10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society.
They're still hyperbolic, but all of these arguments have been put forward. As far as that part of it goes, the thrust of each argument isn't being put into anyone's mouth; rather, actual arguments that are still in use in this "debate" are being mocked in a put-down manner.
None of this changes the fact that I didn't think it was funny, though.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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