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I love Halloween. I love the twisted humor behind the whole thing. I love the celebration of creepiness. I love giving candy to kids who come to my door, and seeing all the costumes they come up with.
Cor told me the other day that the girls' school had instituted a rule for Halloween. Kids could wear costumes, but they could not be of witches, vampires, or any other monsters. Apparently, some Christians at the school find such costumes, couples with the whole pagan origin of the "holiday," offensive. Cor told me we should consider ourselves lucky--the girls' school was the only school in the district allowing dressing up at all.
I've known (a small number of) people who objected to he existence of Halloween, or dressed their kids up as angels or religious figures. I know we have some conservative Christians here, including some who identify as fundamentalist. And some Jehova's Witnesses, as well. If this describes you, do you object to it for your family, but not care so much what others do, or would you seek to have your chilren's school limit or eliminate Halloween dressing up?
I don't think this is a Church and State thing. The people who object to Halloween tend to do so on religious grounds, but the people who celebrate it come from all manner of religious backgrounds. So, while I recognize that kids who don't do Halloween might feel uncomfortable seeing everyone else taking part, I don't think that allowing them to do so is imposing a religion on the ones who don't. It kind of seems a little bit the other way around . . . like doing away with Halloween because a small number of denominations object to it is imposing that set of values on everyone else. (I know this is overstating things a bit, but I'm reacting to this on an instinctual level.)
What do you think of this?
How common is this objection to Halloween?
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I strongly object to idiots telling me Halloween originated with people called the seltics (I spelled it like they say it) who worshipped their dead and thought on halloween their dead came and stole children and wouldn't even look if their kids went missing on halloween.
The holiday's cool though
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Do Jehova's whitnesses not do Halloween? Ok marks candy off list of stuff to buy this week. The only kids that live within a mile of my house are Jehovas Whitness.
Not allowing witches seems extreme, do they allow Hermione costumes?
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I love halloween! I never really participate anymore. But I still love the feel of the holiday, its a great break in October and leads to all sorts of fun hijinks! Specially on a college campus :-D
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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breyerchic, Jehovah's Witnesses don't do any holidays.
I love Halloween, too. A lot of the Baptist objections to Halloween originally had more to do with it being a Catholic Saint's Day being celebrated than a pagan holiday, I think.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I don't object to Halloween based on any kind of religious beliefs, but I don't like the whole destroy other people's property and set things on fire thing that goes along with it. OTOH it's already ground into American Tradition and it makes the kiddies happy so really, whats the harm. OH right the other stuff I was talking about. I'd also mention the gorging on candy thing but that would make me a hypocrite.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Oct 2005
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(I don't like Hallowe'en, but not at all for those reasons!)
I had a friend who wasn't allowed to be witch or other such things (she is a New Mennonite (?) if you're interested), but I don't think she would ever consider imposing those views on others in the way you describe.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Teshi...I went to a Mennonite Brethren university for my upper division work, and they don't beleive in imposing their views on anyone else, ever.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Halloween is a lot of fun. God bless those pagans. They really know how to have a good time.
Posts: 178 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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I despise the idea of taking halloween away from kids in school. I love the holiday. LOVE it. It is my favorite holiday. As each year continues, I see less and less trick or treaters, which makes me very sad. If my kids ever went to a school that did not allow dress up on Halloween, I would just change a couple of idea's here and there, and change the date. For example, Sept 20th is Billtmas, and we celebrate the holiday by dressing up as our character from a movie. I wonder if I could get away with that.
Arg. Just the idea of not letting kids dress up is aggravating for me.
Posts: 9754 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I've seen some religious groups put on "alternative" events in an attempt to draw kids attention away from what they see as a pagan or anti-Christian celebration.
From what I've seen, the alternative things are quite lame and the kids sort of mope around wondering why they don't get to go out and get candy like all their friends.
Or...the adults make the decision to hold their alternative celebration earlier in the day so the kids, one assumes, can still go trick or treating that evening.
The whole alternative celebration idea just seems contrived to me. Like Festivus!
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote: Cor told me the other day that the girls' school had instituted a rule for Halloween. Kids could wear costumes, but they could not be of witches, vampires, or any other monsters. Apparently, some Christians at the school find such costumes, couples with the whole pagan origin of the "holiday," offensive. Cor told me we should consider ourselves lucky--the girls' school was the only school in the district allowing dressing up at all.
Things like this bug me to no end, as I'm sure most of you can guess. I think it would be entirely appropriate for a bunch of the pro-Halloween parents to get together and dress their kids up as witches, vampires, or any other monsters. I mean, just think if, like, half the school was suspended because of that. That's smoe good civil disobedience, right there.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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There's a long and thriving tradition of Neewollah in my grandma's hometown-- Independence, KS. We have a picture of her on a float in the Neewollah festival parade when she was about 6 years old-- which would make it about 1933. But her family, although Baptist, still celebrated Halloween at least a little.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I love Halloween. But at church a few weeks ago, a woman got up to give an announcement and slipped in that if we have symbols of witches or other Satanic things in our homes for Halloween, we should really examine ourselves. Jon Boy and I looked at each other and rolled our eyes.
Our The Cheat pumpkin is smiling at anyone who passes our front door.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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My grandmother is Brethren, and it really is one of the religions that makes the most sense to me, there are still things I disagree with, but it really doesn't make me uncomfortable.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I like Halloween. It's just one of those fun, silly, get out of yourself holidays -- and as long as it stays that way, I like it. When it gets mean or harmful, I don't like it.
The longer we're at our new church, the more I like it. The youth group is having a Halloween party, sponsored by the youth pastor. Not a Harvest party, or All Saints party, or any other silly euphemism to make the kids feel like they're not missing out on the tradition.
My daughter's christian based daycare is also having a little Halloween party, asking that they not wear scary costumes because some of the children scare easily. I don't have a problem with that restriction (Rainbow is going as a princess) because it's logical. Witches can be cute (Emma Watson anyone?). Vampires can be cute. If it's not likely to scare someone, a costume should be allowed, if it's allowed at all. Regardless of whether it is magical or undead. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I am kinda surprised that a school would forbid costumes because of religious implications. Is this a private school, then? (I guess a girl's school must be a private school....)
But it wouldn't surprise me if they did it to be less "scary". I don't know how old the kids in question are, but more and more I see parents worried about their kids getting "too scared" about Halloween, or worried that their kids get too much into the "gore" factor. Blood, guts, all that.
Edit: Oh! On the subject of dressing up as a religious figure: my little brother was a "prophet" one year. He was maybe 4 or 5. He just really, really wanted to be a prophet for Halloween. He wore a beard, held scriptures in his hand, and had a hat on that made him look vaguely Amish. It was pretty funny.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I like Halloween. It's the only day of the year you can get away with knocking on people's doors, have them not recognize you, and get candy for being willing to walk around.
Oh yea and now that I don't trick-or-treat, Halloween parties themselves are fun.
Edit: This year I have a monk costume and someone else in my house has a Pope hat. If it didn't cost so much and the fact that I've always wanted a monk robe, I would have gone with the cardinal costume.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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Yeah, why I can't I get candy anymore? Maybe I'll dress up as young as possible and go trick-or-treating.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I'm not at all surprised that a school would ban the celebration of Halloween. Shortly after I moved away from my elementary/middle school district, the county banned all Halloween decorations, and I assume costumes, because of the pagan origins of Halloween. Of course, this is also the school system that required all eighth grade students to watch the movie The Ten Commandments so that we "could learn about ancient Egyptian culture." And this was public school.
I think it sucks that Halloween is being banned. I also think that banning it because of it's pagan origin is a suspect reason since several Christian holidays have pagan associations.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Jan 2002
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The history of Halloween: The Celts coalesced as a society circa 800 BCE. They were located in what is now the United Kingdom, much of Western Europe and an isolated enclave in what is now Turkey. They held a major celebration near the end of our month of October, which they called called "Samhain", a festival to recognize the end of summer. The story that "Samhain" was a Celtic God of the Dead is a myth. However, it has been repeated so often by conservative Christian and secular sources that it has taken on a life of its own.
The Celts believed that the veil between this world and the next was thinnest at this time of year. Friends and relatives who had died would often return, with their souls inhabiting an animal - often a black cat. Black cats have remained a symbol of Halloween down to the present time.
In celebration of the recently completed harvest, Celts would give offerings of food to the Gods. They often went from door to door to collect food to donate to their deities. Also, young Celts would ask the townspeople for kindling and wood, and take it to top of the hill for the Samhain bonfire. These are two of the possible origins of present day "trick or treating."
Samhain was a fire festival. Sacred bonfires were lit on the tops of hills in honor of the Gods. The townspeople would take an ember from the bonfire to their home and re-light the fire in their family hearth. The ember would usually be carried in a holder - often a turnip or gourd. They felt nervous about walking home in the dark; they were afraid of evil spirits. So they dressed up in costumes and carved scary faces in their ember holders. They hoped that the spirits would be frightened and not bother them. Children continue to dress up today in various costumes. Pumpkins are now the objects of choice to carve faces into.
Origins of Christian holy days: All Saints' Day was created by Pope Boniface IV in the 7th century CE. There were so many saints by this time that there were not enough days in the year to accommodate them. So, All Saints' Day was to recognize the saints who were without their own day, and to celebrate saints that the Church had failed to recognize. It originally was held on May 13, but was moved by Pope Gregory in 835 CE to November 1. This may have been done in order to distract Christians from celebrating Samhain.
Halloween was originally called All Hallows' Eve which means the evening before All Saints' Day. "Hallow" is an Old English word for "saint". This was shortened to Hallowe'en and finally to Halloween. Satanists have adopted Hallowe'en as one of their three main seasonal days of celebration. The others are Walpurgus Nacht on MAY-1 and the Satanist's birthday.
All Souls' Day was created for NOV-2 to honor faithful Christians who had died but were not saints. The three days from OCT-31 to NOV-2 was given the name Hallow Tide.
My take: to ban Halloween because of its pagan origin is hypocritical at best. If this is the real reason that Halloween is bad, then Christmas should be banned as well.
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I could care less about silly American holidays, but I strongly approve of banning them for religious reasons.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I'm an Orthodox Jew, and we don't do Halloween. My kid goes to a Jewish school, so none of his friends are doing it either. In fact, in his crowd, someone who did celebrate it would definitely be the odd one out, and a puzzlement to his peers. So, no peer pressure on the kid to participate and no pressure on the parents from the kid. This is typical of the Orthodox Jewish experience.
That said, I have no objections to anyone else celebrating the holiday, and if you come to my door, I'll have a treat for you. Just don't throw eggs at my house, or engage in any other obnoxious behavior. That's not a celebration -- that's being a hooligan.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Beltane and Samhain... the two ancient days when the spirit world would come closest to the mortal world. May Day and Halloween... what the Christians would change to Easter (Easter was the name of a spring and fertility goddess) and All Hallows Eve, night before All Saints Day.
What I think is so cool is how the Romans in an effort to unite the Empire with Christianity adopted many of the holy days (holidays) of their former religions. The duties of the Gods would be taken up by the Angels as another example. So we actually don't have to look very far to try and find what the ancient culture was like... it's still alive and kicking, just under different names. That's one of the reasons I like the Roman Catholic Church...it is the last living remnant of the Roman government and culture.
Some of the new American Christian sects don't celebrate Halloween because they say it's the "devil's day". Whatever. They are so ignorant of what they claim to believe. It is a beautiful day, full of history and culture. All they see are people dressing up as scary spooks and think it's all about worshiping the Devil (the Devil was actually a Greek injection into the early Christian Church, originally used as a metephor for the trials we all go through but over time people mistook it as there being a literal Devil, but I degress). But it's the same thing as gargoyls on churches... the idea was to scare away the evil spirits... same with dressing up.
Beltane is the day when the more positive spiritual forces have sway (spring, rebirth, return of light) and Samhain is for the more negative side (darkness, winter, death). Yin and Yang for the ancient Celts.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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When I was in high school, ours was the first class ever to have a Halloween party. The holiday was pretty much unknown 10 years ago, and it's ubiquitous today.
There are some radical voices it is an attempt to desacrify All Saints' Day.
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Samarkand: Yeah, why I can't I get candy anymore? Maybe I'll dress up as young as possible and go trick-or-treating.
Do like some people in my neighborhood and take your <2-year-old out trick-or-treating. It seems pretty obvious they aren't going out for the kid who just stares at the bowl of candy with a blank expression. And if the bag of goodies is actually bigger than the kid, you can bet mom and dad are gonna be the ones eating it.
My town is strange. The "powers that be" have decreed (for the past several years, apparently) that "Trick or Treating" will be done on the Tuesday before Oct. 31st. That means we did our T-or-T two days ago. The weather was miserable - wet and windy - but some kids went out anyway. Unfortunately, so did at least 4 sets of parents like I describe above. It's one thing to use your kid to get some free goodies. It's quite another thing to risk pneumonia for your kid so you can get some free goodies. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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When I worked for the entertainment company there was a large evangelical church that held a large and expensive alternative party on the Saturday around halloween.
Of course they insisted on having Laser Tag every year. What could be more Christian than zapping your friends with high energy photons? Oh, just about everything.
Costumes were encouraged as long as they were biblical. The year I attended the party it was amazing the number of lions that showed up, straight from Daniel's lion's den, who had "Lion King" embossed on them. (Lion King IV--Simba & Daniel?)
The saddest costume was the 7 year old stuck in a box too big for him. The box was decorated like a TV and on the TV was a scene from a Christian Video--that his parents were selling at a booth nearby. THe kid just looked so pathetic it hurt.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Karl, I've heard of places that have Halloween on the weekend before, but the Tuesday before..? That makes no sense. Are they purposely trying to kill it? I think you should lead the fight to change this.
BTW, have you got any pictures of your house this year?
I've always loved Halloween. It kills me now that my sister is one of those who doesn't like Halloween and won't let my neice and nephew participate.
When I was a kid, I used to always win the costume contests at school. One year, I went as a moss monster / swamp thing by attaching lots of Spanish moss to a outfit and spray painting it various shades of green. It was hot that year and the costume didn't help. On top of that I was sick, but that didn't stop me. I marched in the parade, won the prize and then practically collapsed.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Actually I object to Halloween for a non-religious reason. In the part of France I live in, the legend says that a long time ago, Saint Martin had lost his donkey, and it was really windy, so the children had to carve beets to put a candle in and search for the donkey. So it's th'e tradition that the children carve beets, give them shapes and put a bulb in it, and go together, with adults of course, including one disguised as Saint Martin, across the village to search the donkey. When they find it they gather in a hot room and everyone is given chocolates. But since the medias started to make such a fuss around Halloween, the tradition began to die, because it was on the same day... And I find it really sad.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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No photos this year. I've been uncharacteristically busy with non-Halloween things this year and decorating didn't happen. A side-effect of having trick-or-treat so early is that now it feels like Halloween is over.
But I've done some brainstorming about decorating for next year. I'm going to start making things in August!
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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For shame. I made a Bates Motel sign this year (my last name). It's much bigger and better than the cheesy one I got from the store. I was thinking about putting dark red paint on my hand, slapping it on the front of the sign and dragging it down. My wife thinks that's a bit much. What do you guys think?
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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It all depends on the theme. If you're going for camp, leave it off. If you're going for grisly, slap it on. Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:So it's th'e tradition that the children carve beets, give them shapes and put a bulb in it, and go together, with adults of course, including one disguised as Saint Martin, across the village to search the donkey. When they find it they . . .
Was I the only one expecting a much more gruesome conclusion to that sentence?
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I adore Halloween. It's one of my favorite holidays; right up there with St. Patrick's Day. Which, incidentally, also involves dressing up.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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First off I have to say I love Halloween. I have no religious objections to it and if you want to wear "Satanic" costumes like devils or vampires or witches, you go right ahead. In fact my Christian non-denominational church is doing a free community event called "Trunk or Treat". We are all bringing our cars to the local elementary school, parking them backwards and filling the trunks with candy. Anyone can come (not just church members) and trick-or-treat car to car. Since we are a church, it is a safe way for kids to get lots of candy without having to walk so much. We have hired a really good local band to come play and we will have face painting and costume contests and free food. We are not pushing the gospel on anyone during this event either. It is just for fun and fellowship. We are calling it a Halloween event and we are not turning anyone away regardless of their costume (unless there is extreme nudity. I think my pastor's example was going as Adam and Eve.) It is going to be a BLAST!
BUT (big but here) I have HUGE objections to kids wearing those costumes to school. I teach at an at-risk middle school and you just don't know how many problems that creates. Kids wearing masks can cause all kinds of trouble and we can't identify them. They bring that nasty glittery hair spray stuff and spray it all over everything. Putting restrictions on the costumes doesn't work because the kids purposely break them and it causes the teachers to lose valuable class time to fix the problem. I know you are thinking that we can just let up and have one day of fun, but we just can't. Thanks to our stupid No-Child-Left-Behind legislature, we are force-feeding our kids as much instruction as humanly possible (or impossible as the case may be) and we don't have time for this kind of stuff at school. A very wise school administrator once said that if you create a circus atmosphere at school, you’ll have to deal with clowns. There are Halloween carnivals at most elementary schools in the area and the kids are encouraged to wear costumes there. Otherwise Halloween is better as an after school event.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Halloween was lots more fun when my kids were little. I don't see it as an adult thing. BUT, tomorrow night my Boy Scouts and I are going camping in the graveyard of an old western ghost town. The town has been mined over. But the graveyard, which has reverted to BLM control and back to pinion forest, is fantantic. There are still lots of monuments etc. This year Halloween is going to be fun again.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Icky, I find that terribly depressing. Our daycare is having a parade and the kids will walk down to the retirement home. I'm so excited they do something special.
*blushes at wanting to take Sophie trick or treating* I want to show her off more than grab the goods, though.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Oh, and Halloween is fine at daycare. My 2 year old is wearing her costume for the Halloween party tomorrow and they will take it off afterwards (not because they don't approve, but because they don't want them messed up before Halloween).
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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We don't do Halloween. No pumpkins, no trick or treating, none of that. We don't generally have many kids ringing our doorbell that night either, because we live in a mostly Orthodox Jewish neighborhood. We can mostly ignore that it's even happening.
When I was little, I used to trick or treat. Then came the rumors about razor blades in apples, and then having to have my parents check everything before I could eat it... the magic just sort of went out of it at that point.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I mean, just think if, like, half the school was suspended because of that. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I usually dress up as well.
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For shame. I made a Bates Motel sign this year (my last name). It's much bigger and better than the cheesy one I got from the store. I was thinking about putting dark red paint on my hand, slapping it on the front of the sign and dragging it down. My wife thinks that's a bit much. What do you guys think?
