posted
" I do not feel any shame at all for what Insane Germans did and six million people allowed to have happen to them."
WHA-WHA-WHHHHAAAA-WHAAAA-WHHAAAAAAAAAT!!!!??
WHAT IN YOUR GODS NAME ARE YOU SMOKING?!
How did they "allow" it to happen? Explain to me where they had a choice in the matter when germans in Coal shuttle helmets pointed a mauser at them and told them to get on a train, pack them together tighter then sardines cart them off to a place whose welcome at the gates said "Work brings freedom"??!!.
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posted
So we give billions to Israel, where the people aren't starving or dying, because of national shame.
But we allow hundreds of thousands to die in Africa, where those billions could save them.
I really don't understand your thought process Rakeesh. You support paying a debt that I think most people don't believe we owe, over using that money to save the lives of those CURRENTLY suffering.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
They are dying, a few every week to bombings.
And if we didn't give them the money then all but a few lucky refugees would die because the Arab world would know its their moment to drive the Jews to the seas.
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A few billion in American aid is NOT what is stopping anyone from driving Israel into the sea. That's what those pretty tanks, fighter bombers, attack helicopters, and uzis are for.
The Israelis know more about their own security than we do, otherwise why would they continually incite the Palestinians to violence with their behavior? I don't know what their alternative is, but if you think American money is what's stopping the surrounding nations, you really don't understand the situation.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
How did you think a nation of a few million people to have made/bought those guns?
"continually incite the Palestinians to violence with their behavior?"
Yeah right... The Israeli's unilaterally withdraw from Gaza and within a day they're being attacked FROM GAZA riiiiight.
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The attacks were predictable and inevitable, given the lack of central control of the Palestinians. Really all Israel did was cleverly pull potential hostages out of danger and make sure all the bad eggs were alone in the same basket.
Granted America tooled up damn fast in WW II building ships faster then the other side could build torpedoes, but that was not the way it was at the start.
There is always a choice when someone points a gun at you, it depends on what you think is more important, liberty or your life. It would have been a whole different story if the Germans had to fight the Jews instead of herding them like cattle.
posted
They've had them for YEARS Blayne, continued financial support isn't keeping anyone at bay.
And you make a good point about Gaza. The problem there is in the fractured Palestinian leadership, part of which has to do with Israel. They assasinate leaders of Palestine's government, then get outraged when there are return attacks. They provoke Palestinian youth into throwing rocks at IDF soldiers then shoot them. They leave synagouges standing on land they just gave to Palestinians, then don't allow the Palestinian security forces to have adequate arms to protect themselves, then get outraged and retaliate when the synagouges are destroyed.
They aren't naive, they are provocative. Whether it is intentional or not is up for discussion, but they cause many of their own problems, and have yet to come up with a viable solution.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
And for YEARS they've been getting money sheesh.
"Granted America tooled up damn fast in WW II building ships faster then the other side could build torpedoes, but that was not the way it was at the start.
There is always a choice when someone points a gun at you, it depends on what you think is more important, liberty or your life. It would have been a whole different story if the Germans had to fight the Jews instead of herding them like cattle."
America was a leading power in international trade in the very least, and they're immiedat entry into the war in 1939 would've ended the war years earlier and without eastern europe become a Russian protectorate.
America could have at the very least pressured Germany in the pre war years, or entered the war.
All they'ld have to do is declare their protection over say Poland and they can use it as an excuse to get in the war.
Then again thats how I get USA into the war earlier in Hoi2.... maybe games and rl don't mix...
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I think there is a certain amount of naivety in Israel expecting the PA to be able to rein in militant groups when they couldn't do it, despite superior weapons and training.
Of course, the PA is also just one step removed from being the political arm of a terrorist organization, considering the leadership they've had.
I'm pretty sure Israel is using that fact as a "point-to" issue whenever it's convenient for them to do so.
And I really can't fault them either.
Sadly, I do think there's a threat of violence hanging over the peacable people living in the Palestinian areas. If they are seen as anti-Hamas, it means they are pro-Israel, and that's a death sentence in those areas. People who inform to the Israelis risk having their entire family harmed.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Then they should ask Israel for free passage into Israel and protect their family in return for pertinant information and protection.
If an 18 year old can think of it anyone can.
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"[Whoa. I think this thread just nearly got Godwin'd.]" ???
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Blayne Bradley
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Open Letter to the Knesset:
A suggestion by a humble person Blayne Bradley John Abbott College
quote: I'ld like to suggest to offer Palistians safe passage and protection within Isreal for the said Palistinian and his family or some varient of this privilege in exchnage for information on terrorist activities, I am not aware if this is already being done or not and I wish not to be patronizing in the least. I hope terrorist acts against Israel end as soon as possible and that Israeli citizens can live in peace.
posted
Demographic tracking suggests that an Islamic Majority of those Palestinians already legally in Israel will exist before the end of this century, I am sure that the Israelis will not want to accelerate the process.
I feel 90% certain that Isreal could "handle" the Palestinians in any way, to whatever degree they desired. It has been nearly two centuries since the machines of war were inadequet to deal with numbers. It is a question of the face put on actions and just how bad a group is willing to look while achieving its ends. Isreal has some remarkable tactics for looking victimized and justified, that said they still have a low enough tolerance for attrocity that they have not 'solved' the issue in any of several ways surely available to them. This at least sets them well above the Iranians and Iraq and I suspect most of the Muslims in that it seems they can restrain themselves once they have WMD's.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: We don't owe France crap. That's different with Israel. We owe them a shameful debt.
That's so wrong. America doesn't owe Israel one damned thing. It used to owe France for its very existence, but I think that's been paid back with interest.
The entire world was more than happy to watch the Germans exterminate the Jews. The State of Israel doesn't change that.
Israel doesn't need your pity payments, thanks very much. The only people who deserve to be paying the Jews for what happened during WWII are the Germans. And whoever else stole from us, like the Swiss and maybe the Poles.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Then what do we owe Darfur?
Good point. You have a frighteningly sick view of the Middle East, but in this case, you're dead right.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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While the 'global police' policy is arguably foundering, the non-interference policy hardly led to good results either.
Your reference to Germany is irrelevant. Just because someone else does or doesn't do something has no bearing on what we do. And the fact that Germany does not do more for Israel and Jews worldwide after their nationwide systematic mass-murder of Jews-which was not stopped by a change of conscience, but stopped by force of arms-is more shame to them. It certainly is not an indicator that we should follow suit.
As for our actions having hurt more than help...you're joking, right? You are aware that without American aid to Israel, Israel would have been destroyed decades ago? Right now the situation is different-perhaps they could stand entirely on their own in the long-term against a host of enemies who don't give a damn about civilian casualties or the lives of their own people.
But it hasn't always been that way. "Giveaways" indeed.
--------
Lyrhawn,
We owe a lot to Darfur. We're not, shamefully, going to pay it. But our resources are limited. Because we cannot do good everywhere, we should do good nowhere?
Yes, I realize you disagree that it's a good thing. But your point about Darfur isn't very valid, because that's the angle you were mentioning it from.
-------
starLisa,
I partially agree with you. Israel owes us very much, I believe. But America owes Jews, I believe, a very great deal. And since Israel is home to a vast number of Jews and it is a place where Jews are killed for begin Jews (again), I feel it is part of the debt we Americans owe Jews to help Israel in any way we can.
'Pity payments' is one way to put it, but not the only way. Money in recompense of a wrongdoing is an idea that's been around probably just about as long as money. 'Blood-gold' does not mean that once the check is signed, the shame is forgotten or paid off. It's just that it's what we can do.
Oh, and who are you kidding about Israel not needing our help? I realize you're a zealot when it comes to the region, so I ask this hesitantly, but are you crazy? Maybe you could say, "Israel doesn't need our (seeing as how you are an American, remember?) help anymore."
And since I'm a sucker for a lost cause...there was no call to call Lyrhawn's beliefs 'frighteningly sick'. Doing so was needlessly insulting, counter-productive, and stupid.
Well, it was only stupid if you're interested in discussing things with people and possibly persuading them, not just thumping your chest.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:You are aware that without American aid to Israel, Israel would have been destroyed decades ago?
I don't happen to believe this, and since you certainly can't prove what might have happened I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I view these foreign aid handouts much like our welfare system: a good idea done badly, which breeds dependence on handouts and kills the development of a self-sufficient community.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Why don't you believe it? It seems so obvious as to be nearly fact to me.
Without American military hardware in substantial quantities and American military-financial aid in which to sufficiently train its soldiers in the use of such, I believe that it's obvious Israel would not have been able to win its past wars against its Arab neighbors.
Which part of that do you disagree with?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
The part where you predict what might have happened. No matter how obvious it may seem to you, the fact is there's no way of knowing what would've happened if we'd cut off our aid long ago. Israel may have folded like an accordion, or they may have pushed through and survived, or they may have gotten what they needed elsewhere.
The point being that as fun as it is to say that one outcome definitely would have happened, it's still just pure speculation. It's fun to talk about, and I love to read alternate histories, but as they say in sports, "There's a reason why they play the games."
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
OK, so then you're not going to offer a reason why they would've survived.
Your sports analogy is nice. Sure, the Yankees don't necessarily have to win every game. We can't be sure what would happen if, for instance, you shaved a few digits off their budget, trimmed their bullpen by their best players, and forced them to rely on third-stringers.
I can't actually say they would certainly lose more often if that happened. But c'mon man, gimme a break. You and I both know what would happen.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I partially agree with you. Israel owes us very much, I believe. But America owes Jews, I believe, a very great deal.
<blink> Huh? Why on earth? If anything, the opposite is true. The last place we lasted so long without getting pogrommed and massacred... well, it's been a long time. And I'll grant you, it was getting pretty hairy even in the US until the post-WWII newsreels showed up, but we're free citizens here. Well, as free as any Americans are these days.
You're not one of those "let's pay reparations for things that happened centuries ago" folks, are you?
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: And since Israel is home to a vast number of Jews and it is a place where Jews are killed for begin Jews (again), I feel it is part of the debt we Americans owe Jews to help Israel in any way we can.
Look, I'm happy for help, in the sense of friendship and backup. Loans, maybe. Sharing intelligence, maybe. But if you think you owe Jews anything, as Jews, well... for my part, I don't recognize any such debt.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: 'Pity payments' is one way to put it, but not the only way. Money in recompense of a wrongdoing is an idea that's been around probably just about as long as money. 'Blood-gold' does not mean that once the check is signed, the shame is forgotten or paid off. It's just that it's what we can do.
What wrongdoing? I'm just curious. Yes, the US should have bombed the tracks to Auschwitz. Fine. I wasn't even born then, though. And it's not as though the US actually owed that to us. A country needs to look to its own needs first, even if that doesn't help someone who needs it.
That's one reason, incidentally, why I would never, ever, ever vote for a Jew for the office of President of the US. I firmly believe that an American president has to put the welfare of the US above all other considerations, and I believe just as strongly that a Jew has to put the welfare of the Jews above all other considerations. The two rarely conflict, and with luck, that'll continue. But they can. In principle.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Oh, and who are you kidding about Israel not needing our help? I realize you're a zealot when it comes to the region, so I ask this hesitantly, but are you crazy? Maybe you could say, "Israel doesn't need our (seeing as how you are an American, remember?) help anymore."
Zealousness for a right cause is a virtue. But in any case, when it comes down to it, Israel stands or falls based on what Jews do and what God decides. If God wants to trash us again, all the support in the world isn't going to help. And if God wants us to make it through this, not all the opposition in the world is going to prevent that.
It's passe at best, and more like seriously out of style to actually think such things, let alone say them, I realize. But it's really true.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: And since I'm a sucker for a lost cause...there was no call to call Lyrhawn's beliefs 'frighteningly sick'. Doing so was needlessly insulting, counter-productive, and stupid.
As stupid as you calling what I said stupid? Just curious. <grin> Anyway, I stand by what I said about Lyrhawn's views. I actually censored myself severely before writing that.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Well, it was only stupid if you're interested in discussing things with people and possibly persuading them, not just thumping your chest.
Be honest... do you think Lyrhawn is persuadable on this issue?
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
How about you leave Iran and Israel to the UN. Just because you created it doesn't mean you can do their job for them whenever it suits you.
Posts: 75 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:OK, so then you're not going to offer a reason why they would've survived.
No, I'm not going to offer a reason. Because it doesn't matter, and I'm not gonna waste my time debating an issue that there is absolutely no way to determine the outcome of.
quote:Your sports analogy is nice. Sure, the Yankees don't necessarily have to win every game. We can't be sure what would happen if, for instance, you shaved a few digits off their budget, trimmed their bullpen by their best players, and forced them to rely on third-stringers.
The Yankees' this year had the number one payroll in baseball (again) and a lineup that included 7 (or maybe 8) current or former All-Stars. They got bounced in the first round of the playoffs.
The Vikings and the Cardinals were everyone's popular preseason picks for most improved/playoff contenders this year. Midway through the season they stand a combined 4-10.
Your argument does nothing but validate my point.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Rakeesh: And since I'm a sucker for a lost cause...there was no call to call Lyrhawn's beliefs 'frighteningly sick'. Doing so was needlessly insulting, counter-productive, and stupid. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As stupid as you calling what I said stupid? Just curious. <grin> Anyway, I stand by what I said about Lyrhawn's views. I actually censored myself severely before writing that.
I was going to stay away from this, as I don't think it's really worthy of justifying with a response, but I must say curiousity has gotten the better of me. First, why exactly are my views on the Middle East 'frighteningly sick'? I find this statement odd, since you only really know half of my view on one subject, that being Israel. So for you to make a blanket statement about my views on an incredibly diverse range of issues in a contentious area of the world, well, I won't say stupid, but careless certainly fits.
I'm also curious to hear the parts you left out.
I have to stop and remind myself, or at least hopefully tell myself, that you starLisa, do not represent a majority of the views of Israelis. If you did, I'd have a much lower opinion of Israel.
quote: Be honest... do you think Lyrhawn is persuadable on this issue?
Further, which specific issue? The original issue was Iran and Israel, which you haven't covered, in relation to my comments on it. And in general, I'm fairly open minded when anything close to looking like sense comes my way.
Rakeesh -
I understand why you think we owe a debt to Israel. I might even agree that a small debt was owed, but if it was, it has more than been paid back by our massive support to Israel in its infancy, which more or less made it possible for them to exist as a nation. Their existance from here on out is their own responsibility. The consequences of their mistakes, and the rewards of their successes should be their own to suffer and claim.
Saying we owe Israel a debt, is like saying we owe the descendents of slaves a debt, and hundreds of other peoples. I find it hard to accept that I personally owe money to people I've never met, for things that neither I nor my government did. Especially when a lot of these people are the descendents themselves of those who were maligned by a DIFFERENT nation, and they live in relative freedom compared to many places in the world.
You say you'd rather do something somewhere than nothing anywhere, I certainly agree with that. But you support helping people who don't honestly NEED our help to survive, it simply makes them MORE secure. Why not use that money to help people who die by the thousands, slowly, sickeningly, or who are butchered by machetes, just like the Jews, just because they happen to be a certain ethnic group? Pound for pound, I'd rather help the larger group with the same amount of money, rather than the smaller one that we've BEEN helping for DECADES.
As a nation I don't think we owe Israel anything. As a nation we might not even owe Darfur or others anything. But as human beings we owe it to everyone who is currently SUFFERING to do our damned best to help them out.
Make the case to me that Israelis are suffering like the Sudanese in Darfur, or the starving in Niger, and I'll willingly join your side with trumpets blaring.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote: You're not one of those "let's pay reparations for things that happened centuries ago" folks, are you?
I am still waiting for the government to pay my family the principle plus interest on the property they took through what amounted to an extension of eminent domain called the emancipation proclamation. Adjusted to current dollars the average slave was worth 300,000 so with interest that would set my whole family up very nicely! Hee Hee...
One could argue very effectively that the money we give to Israel is in our own interest, where as money going to the teeming needy is just going to end up in warlords pockets and help perpetuate the current intolerable state of things.
To each according to their need is Marxist thinking and it leads to bankruptcy, to thems that can pay you back with interest is as old as Israel itself and has worked for just as long.
quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: I am not to be cast as a villian, I of course am one of the Heroes. We look alot alike from the outside, the third type, the coward often cannot tell us apart.
BC
*Sings* Troll, troll, troll your boat, gently down the stream, flamingly, flamingly, flamingly, flamingly, forum's but a dream.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Frankly, after "I do not feel any shame at all for what Insane Germans did and six million people allowed to have happen to them" it's hard for me not to think of you as a stupid, self-centred, ignorant little piece of villous, sorry - villainous... You know what? Never mind. The noun I have to say is not going to be nice, and it will only be abrasive.
Let's just say you're not MY man of the hour. I'm sticking to KoM in his last offensive post.
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
*Sings* Troll, troll, troll your boat, gently down the stream, flamingly, flamingly, flamingly, flamingly, forum's but a dream.
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