FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Is this true?

   
Author Topic: Is this true?
Irami Osei-Frimpong
Member
Member # 2229

 - posted      Profile for Irami Osei-Frimpong   Email Irami Osei-Frimpong         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
From the moment our children step into a classroom, new evidence shows that the single most important factor in determining their achievement today is not the color of their skin or where they come from; it’s not who their parents are or how much money they have.

It’s who their teacher is. It’s the person who will brave some of the most difficult schools, the most challenging children, and accept the most meager compensation simply to give someone else the chance to succeed.

One study shows that two groups of students who started third grade at about the same level of math achievement finished fifth grade at vastly different levels. The group with the effective teacher saw their scores rise by nearly 25%. The group with the ineffective teacher actually saw their scores drop by 25%.

I thought the answer to the first question was going to concern how much the parents read to the child or another variable. Is this "new evidence" familiar to anyone? How can the data be interpreted?
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
erosomniac
Member
Member # 6834

 - posted      Profile for erosomniac           Edit/Delete Post 
What are you quoting?
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Boon
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post 
Umm...few children will learn well with crappy teachers? Or...better teachers make for better educated students?

Was this a "real" study? I want someone to pay me to study something like this...

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Epictetus
Member
Member # 6235

 - posted      Profile for Epictetus   Email Epictetus         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm curious whether there's a descrepancy in class sizes in this study.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Irami Osei-Frimpong
Member
Member # 2229

 - posted      Profile for Irami Osei-Frimpong   Email Irami Osei-Frimpong         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
What are you quoting?
It doesn't matter.


quote:
I want someone to pay me to study something like this
The findings state that the teacher is the most important variable. I think that's a profound and arresting statement, if true.

quote:
I'm curious whether there's a descrepancy in class sizes in this study.
I was thinking about that, too.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen studies that show how damaging a bad teacher can be. It generally takes about 3 years to recover from the effects of a genuinely bad teacher.

But in a single classroom, student success has more to do with parents than with teachers.

"new evidence shows" is a copout. Yes, bad teachers will have a negative effect, and certainly inner city districts have a harder time attracting the better teachers. But the quote above isn't about finding out why, it's about laying blame.

Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm with Boon. This is no surprise at all. Most parents, even if they help their children extensively with developing school-related skills as they should before school even begins do not teach their children the majority of what the kids are going to learn intellectually.

I've had teachers who I honestly remember so little about that I couldn't tell you what I learnt in the class because I retained nothing of it. I've had teachers who made everything interesting and memorable.

Even at University, student who take exactly the same credit with different professors learn not only widely differing things but also widely differing amounts.

Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Toretha
Member
Member # 2233

 - posted      Profile for Toretha   Email Toretha         Edit/Delete Post 
how are we judging ineffective and effective teachers in this study? by which students do better and which do worse? That's begging the question a bit, isn't it?
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pelegius
Member
Member # 7868

 - posted      Profile for Pelegius           Edit/Delete Post 
How is this new? Everyone has known this for years. Well, they might not have said it was the single most important factor, but they knew it was important.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Irami Osei-Frimpong
Member
Member # 2229

 - posted      Profile for Irami Osei-Frimpong   Email Irami Osei-Frimpong         Edit/Delete Post 
Toretha,

I was a little worried as I don't know what constitutes, "Achievement," either, that's why I was hoping that someone was familiar with the study.

Pelegius,

Saying that something is important is far weaker than setting that same thing as the single most important factor.

Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mrs.M
Member
Member # 2943

 - posted      Profile for Mrs.M   Email Mrs.M         Edit/Delete Post 
Parents are a variable, even in this new study. Some parents are going to notice that their child has an awful teacher and do something about it, some won't.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Coccinelle
Member
Member # 5832

 - posted      Profile for Coccinelle   Email Coccinelle         Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen an actual study similar to this one. I need to look it up, but basically they found successful students who were all in "Miss M's" class. (not to be confused with Mrs. M) The Miss M theory is a nice feel-good study for teachers who would like to believe that they will make or break a student's future. While a teacher does impact the learning in class, many studies since have disputed this Miss M theory calling in other factors relating to student achievement.
Posts: 862 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ClaudiaTherese
Member
Member # 923

 - posted      Profile for ClaudiaTherese           Edit/Delete Post 
I recognize the quote. [Smile] I don't know how to evaluate the claim, as I'd have to see the original reference.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
aspectre
Member
Member # 2222

 - posted      Profile for aspectre           Edit/Delete Post 
It could be true in the aggregate.
I have seen a study of principals working for L.A.Unified in which ~15% were not merely incompetent, but (mis)managed to actually lower the average GPAs of the schools to which they were assigned. The fall in GradePointAverages was confirmed by results on standardized tests used throughout the district.

In one case, a principal was assigned and reassigned every few years to a different school, with over half a grade point drop in a school's GPAs occurring within the first year she became the new head, and over 1&1/2 grade point drop in a school's GPAs within the second school year.
But they kept passing her around from school to school, cuz buying out her contract would have cost a couple million dollars, or more. Yep, in L.A.Unified, even provably causing educational harm to students wasn't sufficient cause to fire a principal.

Couldn't even continue paying them their salary while sticking them in an office somewhere far away from being able to cause damage because such an act "would cause irreparable harm to a principal's reputation", an offense defined within the contract between principals and L.A.Unified as grounds for a rather large financial settlement.

Raised quite a stink when the L.A.Times managed to get hold of L.A.Unified's internal reports, and publicized them. Yet I haven't heard anything which suggests that the employment contracts between L.A.Unified and their school principals have been changed since that time, or in L.A.Unified's employment practices.

[ November 06, 2005, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]

Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
FlyingCow
Member
Member # 2150

 - posted      Profile for FlyingCow   Email FlyingCow         Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen this quote, too. They like to pull it out during new teacher orientation and workshops. They apparently did some research or study that yielded these results... though I'm curious how they determined what an "effective" teacher was vs. an "ineffective" one if it wasn't for student performance.

I mean, seeing the lower performing student and then saying that was the less effective teacher, then turning around to say that the student performed lower because the teacher was less effective... seems pretty circular.

It is often used as a motivator for new teachers to do their best, because *you are the most important thing affecting a student's education!!!* It is also often used in the argument for higher teacher wages and benefits. I've also seen it used by people pushing increased higher standards, certification standards, and "highly qualified" hiring practices - all included in No Child Left Behind.

After all of this, though, I don't know how true it is.

Still, though, I'm not sure how useful a comment it is. If two students in the same class have the same teacher, and one performs much more poorly than another, the overall effectiveness of the teacher doesn't have much bearing. There must be other factors at work.

Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
pfresh85
Member
Member # 8085

 - posted      Profile for pfresh85   Email pfresh85         Edit/Delete Post 
I think there's some truth in this, but you have to look at everything to find it. I'm a highly motivated student, so I'm usually successful overall. I have had effective teachers and ineffective teachers though, and I can tell which is which by what I got out of the classes. In all the classes I've taken though (effective teacher or not), there have been students that do poorly (even super poorly). While at times, the student may do poorly because the teacher is ineffective, but it may also just be that the student is a poor student. I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say, but I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere.

EDIT: I think what I was trying to say is that a good student can be successful with or without an effective teacher (although will get more out of it with an effective teacher), while a poor student may only be successful with an effective teacher (or may not be successful at all). It depends on both the student (their life, background, etc.) and the teacher.

Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kayla
Member
Member # 2403

 - posted      Profile for Kayla   Email Kayla         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

What are you quoting?

quote:
It doesn't matter.
How arrogant of you to decide what's important.

It from a speech Barack Obama gave.

http://obama.senate.gov/speech/051025-teaching_our_kids_in_a_21st_century_economy/

Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Irami Osei-Frimpong
Member
Member # 2229

 - posted      Profile for Irami Osei-Frimpong   Email Irami Osei-Frimpong         Edit/Delete Post 
Blah, blah, blah, Kayla, it doesn't matter. The speech doesn't come with footnotes, the specifics of the study aren't disclosed. For the purposes of this thread, it doesn't matter who said it, it matters if its true, and to decide that, I wanted to talk to someone familiar with the study.

It's not arrogant, Kayla, I didn't take any power or authority away that wasn't properly mine to begin with. Starting a thread is one of those few times in life where the person who starts actually gets to decide the object of the discussion, and I wanted to steer clear of adhominem support or denial of this claim.

If I'm told that my house is one fire, who said it doesn't matter, the point at issue is whether my house is on fire.

That said, is anyone familiar with the study cited?

Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Boon
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post 
Here's one, but there are many more that are similar.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Scott R
Member
Member # 567

 - posted      Profile for Scott R   Email Scott R         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If I'm told that my house is one fire, who said it doesn't matter, the point at issue is whether my house is on fire.
For the purposes of this thread, your analogy sucks.

If I don't trust you, and you insist on hiding evidence, I'm not going to engage you in conversation. I'm going to write you off as arrogant and manipulative. Saying 'it doesn't matter' makes people very wary of getting involved.

Full disclosure-- would it have been so difficult, Irami, to say who was your source and where the study comes from? The fact that you DID hide it, and that CONSPICUOUSLY, makes me very leery of engaging you at all.

Ever.

And your flippant remarks toward Kayla don't help.

Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mr_porteiro_head
Member
Member # 4644

 - posted      Profile for mr_porteiro_head   Email mr_porteiro_head         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong:
quote:
What are you quoting?
It doesn't matter.
I am trying and failing to come up with a valid reason fo you to not answer that question.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
firebird
Member
Member # 1971

 - posted      Profile for firebird   Email firebird         Edit/Delete Post 
Irami,

Freakonomics postulates a very different conclusion from their study on data in the Chicago area.

Their conclusion was that who your parents are (but not what they do) is the most important factor. Ie socio-economic background, education level, commitment to education are important but reading to kids, taking them to museums or whether the family remains intact are not.

However, the chapter on school results is quite confusing as their argument seems to change half way through. They appear to switch from which school you attend doesn't matter a jot something else. Although, on refelction, maybe they were saying good teachers matter more than good schools. Will have to go back and read it again!

Bob has also read Freakonomics so he might have a different take.

Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Irami Osei-Frimpong
Member
Member # 2229

 - posted      Profile for Irami Osei-Frimpong   Email Irami Osei-Frimpong         Edit/Delete Post 
Scott,

Go ahead and be leery, but I have a question, have you heard of a study that came up with such findings?

MPH,

Look at my last post, I baldly said why I didn't think that the speech mattered. Whether you think my reasons are appropriate is your issue, and I'm done swaying you one way or the other.

____

I've always held special place in my heart for teachers, I just didn't think that there would be empirical evidence to support my intuition.

Thanks, firebird and everyone else,

I've been avoiding Freaknomics because well, a man has to set priorities, but I'll take a look.

Boon, I downloaded the study and am taking a look at it.

[ October 31, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
Dude, I really like that Barack Obama person.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SingerGuy59
Member
Member # 5934

 - posted      Profile for SingerGuy59   Email SingerGuy59         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm also a big one for sources. I have taken surveys where the slightest twist of the question would lead to different results. Studys are no different. I have to know who paid for the study, what their agenda was, who their sample was, etc. before I will give it any credence. In general I don't trust studies. They always seem to support the expected outcome, which causes me to doubt their intellectual honesty.
Posts: 16 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
firebird
Member
Member # 1971

 - posted      Profile for firebird   Email firebird         Edit/Delete Post 
I have sympathy for both sides of the sources / not sources debate.

Sources are useful in that they allow you to ignore opinion that is trying to present itself as academic research. Academic research here is defined as something that has been peer reviewed and challenges by experts in the field in which they are publishing.

However, as Singer Guy has pointed out, even amongst academics, there is dispute as to what impacts child development, with each pedling their hypothesis as if it is the only truth and often without intellectual honesty. However, as I am not experts in their fields I cannot comment on their methodology.

In fact none of us can comment with credibility on the methodology of any academic study, as none of you know whether I am an economist, statistician or extra terrestrial adn likewise I have no information about you guys.

Epictetus's comment that he needs to know the class size is (in my opinion) not the point. We have to take the whole methodology on trust.

The only real question is whether this quote comes from an academic body that is deemed not to have an agenda, or whether it is opinion disguised as a study.

So Irami - posting the source is useful in that it would allow me to acertain whether it is equivalent to a fireman or the three year old who is obsessed with Fireman Sam cartoons rushing up to me telling me my house is on fire.

However, the source is only useful for acertaining credibility, not for challenging the methodology.

Once we understand that challenging the methodology of the study is does not add value, the only logical thing to do is to offer offer alternative sources that reach a different conclusion to help shape the argument.

Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jaiden
Member
Member # 2099

 - posted      Profile for Jaiden   Email Jaiden         Edit/Delete Post 
Who says something makes a –vast- difference. People have biases and different points of view.

People arguing for abortion will quote studies to support them. Some are biased studies.
People arguing against abortion will quote studies to support them. Some are biased studies.

I am more likely to believe someone educated in the field they’re talking about then joesmoe saying his opinion.

Saying it doesn’t matter is naive at best.

(looks I'm a little slow [Smile] )

Posts: 944 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Irami Osei-Frimpong
Member
Member # 2229

 - posted      Profile for Irami Osei-Frimpong   Email Irami Osei-Frimpong         Edit/Delete Post 
There was a time when it was considered a logical fallacy to base ones decision on the perceived character of the speaker rather than the argument presented. That's arrogance-- and hubris-- degrading the rightful authority of the evidence in favor of your opinion of the speaker.

There is a time and a place for taking into account the motives of the speaker. This isn't it. Evidence has been alluded too. The evidence is what I have a question concerning, so let's take a look at the evidence, and if there is still any ambiguity and suspiciousness in the procedure, then we can decide based on what we know about Obama.

quote:
So Irami - posting the source is useful in that it would allow me to acertain whether it is equivalent to a fireman or the three year old who is obsessed with Fireman Sam cartoons rushing up to me telling me my house is on fire.
Or you can look at the house.

quote:
Once we understand that challenging the methodology of the study is does not add value
I don't think that that's been established.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jaiden
Member
Member # 2099

 - posted      Profile for Jaiden   Email Jaiden         Edit/Delete Post 
You, refusing to post the link, decided for us that who the speaker is doesn't matter.
That's crap.
You have your own biases as well, why should we trust you making that decision?
Not allowing us the chance to make our opinion is unbelievably arrogant.

Posts: 944 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
firebird
Member
Member # 1971

 - posted      Profile for firebird   Email firebird         Edit/Delete Post 
Irami, that's not how I see it.

On any given academic evidence, where I don't have the tools to be able to look the methodology either because I can't understand it or I don't have the right programs to check the calculations or I don't have a laboratory to coroborate the results in then my only tool for checking that their conclusion are intellectually honest are to see who they have asked to review their work.

That isn't arrogance, it's humility, that I say I do not have the skills to judge the worth of their work. It has taken these scientists years and years to develop the skills and reputation to be able to design the experiments they design. I could not possible develop these skills over night.

Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Irami Osei-Frimpong
Member
Member # 2229

 - posted      Profile for Irami Osei-Frimpong   Email Irami Osei-Frimpong         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
You, refusing to post the link, decided for us that who the speaker is doesn't matter.
That's crap.
You have your own biases as well, why should we trust you making that decision?
Not allowing us the chance to make our opinion is unbelievably arrogant.

The speaker doesn't matter. And not because of my decision, but because the thread is about the evidence and the speaker doesn't matter.

[ October 31, 2005, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tern
Member
Member # 7429

 - posted      Profile for tern   Email tern         Edit/Delete Post 
I wouldn't be surprised if this was true.

Some of our teachers are our best and brightest, people who have the calling and feel the desire. People who are diligent and care for the students.

And most of the rest are like the people who graduated from my alma mater, which produces the greatest number of teachers in Cali. These are not people who got high grades in high school, these were not the most diligent students in college. In fact, the majority of them started out in other maors. It's pretty sad, talking to some of them...you get failed and wannabebutneverwill pharmacists, lawyers, doctors, scientists... The general attitude was, if you get a degree and can't get a job in it, you can always become a teacher, and if you can't suceed in your degree, you can always become a teacher. It's like the fallback career.

For the record, my university usually supplied LAUSD with teachers.

Again, this doesn't apply to all teachers, and probably not to the ones on this site.

I wish that teacher salaries would be doubled, and then teaching would attract some of the bright people who are turned off by the low wages. What do you think, LAUSD...could you sacrifice, say, Belmont to double salaries? I'd vote for an increase in the education budget to raise salaries. As long as it's tied to merit in a reasonable way, of course.

Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
firebird
Member
Member # 1971

 - posted      Profile for firebird   Email firebird         Edit/Delete Post 
Irami ... how do you want me / us to comment on your quote? Currently it is just a quote and not evidence IMO.

Are you asking us to assume it is correct and therefore evidence and go from there?

I don't understand.

Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jaiden
Member
Member # 2099

 - posted      Profile for Jaiden   Email Jaiden         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The speaker doesn't matter. And not because of my decision, but because the thread is about the evidence and the speak doesn't matter.
Speakers do matter. What they present as "evidence" might be more than a little biased. How do we judge that? By who the speaker is, what their agenda is and from where their "data" comes from. Although we don't know where this data comes from, we can still make judgements about who the speaker is and what that person's agenda is.
Posts: 944 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Irami Osei-Frimpong
Member
Member # 2229

 - posted      Profile for Irami Osei-Frimpong   Email Irami Osei-Frimpong         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

Irami ... how do you want me / us to comment on your quote? Currently it is just a quote and not evidence IMO.

Are you asking us to assume it is correct and therefore evidence and go from there?

I don't understand.

I expected the people who had heard about the studies cited to say that they knew about the studies cited and offer a link, much like Boon did. And everyone else to think about ways data in like studies can be fudged, like Toretha did.


When I wrote:

quote:
I thought the answer to the first question was going to concern how much the parents read to the child or another variable. Is this "new evidence" familiar to anyone? How can the data be interpreted?
I meant, I thought the answer to the first question was going to concern how much the parents read to the child or another variable. Is this "new evidence" familiar to anyone? How can the data be interpreted?

And everyone else to sit out.

Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
firebird
Member
Member # 1971

 - posted      Profile for firebird   Email firebird         Edit/Delete Post 
Irami,

That may be what you intended. But what you posted was a thread called 'is this true?'. This title lead people to believe that they should coment on the validity of the source, and so, rightly, they wanted to know who the source was.

I've posted my alternative evidence as has Boon.

You said:
quote irami
quote firebird:
Once we understand that challenging the methodology of the study is does not add value
unquote
I don't think that that's been established.
quote irami:

Then give me the source so that I can challenge the methodology.

Here I was defending the fact that you need not give the source and yet your logic shows that I need to have it.

I don't understand your interanl logic, please explain.

Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post 
Some people really just need a big hug. Others require a wedgie of similar magnitude. I'm really starting to think Irami's one of the latter.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2