posted
I posted this (or v similar) in the OSC - Cypher thread on the other side. However, I'm thinking that it fits more on 'this side'.
*** Part of the substance of OSCs post in 'OSC - Cypher' on the 'other side' was that communities that thrive will have values that benefit the community.
The reasoning OSC asked us to follow was as follows: Many / most / at least my religion require their members to adopt certain beliefs about marriage, divorce, promiscuity, extra-marital affairs Many / most / at least my religion can be deemed to be a successful community due to the size and cohesiveness of the society. Other communities that do not adopt these beliefs can be shown to be unsuccessful (ie decline and fall of Rome)
Therefore the beliefs that many / most / at least my religion regarding marriage, divorce, promiscuity, extra-marital affairs are fundamental cornerstones of community / society and civilisation. These beliefs are important and true and because they are important and true they are part of our religion.
So, to my question: 1) Is Hatrack a successful community? 2) If so what are our values and beliefs that make it successful?
My take on this: 1) Yes it is a successful community. There are many REAL (see other thread) Jateraqueros (sp?), many Jateraqueros invest a lot of time in this community, many of us care about each other deeply 2) Well to answer this we have to look at our behaviours, how they have changed, how we police ourselves in order to get an indication of what behaviours are sufficiently disruptive to be seen to be disruptive to our society.
Possible Behaviours for analysis 1) Using OSC rather than any other name to refer to our host 2) Not flaming our host 3) Being able to politely disagree with our host 4) Understanding that style and substance are equally important when posting 5) Understanding that any failure in our communication is always the fault of the party that posted and not the fault of the person reading it 6) Ascertaining that Jateraqueros are real 7) Having a number of ‘fluffy / fun’ threads 8) Sharing our problems 9) Landmarks 10) Not posting ‘I agree’ and then reiterating all the same points 11) Back up arguments with evidence 12) Requiring sources 13) Not expecting our status in the real world to carry any weight here
This is not meant to be an exhaustive list but just some initial ideas to set the scene. Please add to it and give your comments on which you think are intrinsic to keeping this community together.
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Possible Behaviours for analysis 1) Using OSC rather than any other name to refer to our host
This is sort of the custom, but I wouldn't say its essential. And the custom is to refer to his name with respect, whether it be OSC, Mr. Card, or Orson Scott Card.
2) Not flaming our host
I would expand this to say "no flaming anyone". That sort of thing doesn't fly here.
3) Being able to politely disagree with our host
I would even extend this to "Being able to politely disagree with our host, and holding said host to the same standards of behavior as any other hatracker". I know lots of other people disagree with me on this one, but I think its essential.
4) Understanding that style and substance are equally important when posting
I would not say "equally", but we do hold our posters to a certain standard of posting etiquette. Typing in all CAPS will get you ignored, and we have a hard time tolerating spelling or grammar mistakes if they are on the extreme end of the spectrum. I would also note that we have additional standards of behavior in regards to personal (or even general) insults, and that we ask that poster's treat each-other with respect. I wouldn't call these "style" issues though.
5) Understanding that any failure in our communication is always the fault of the party that posted and not the fault of the person reading it.
This may be mostly true, but its not really an essential rule.
6) Ascertaining that Jateraqueros are real
Haha. This was more of a fun little game. Its something we have fun with, but its not really anything important.
7) Having a number of ‘fluffy / fun’ threads
Sure, why not .
8) Sharing our problems
And our successes.
9) Landmarks
Landmarks are part of the collection of hatrack memes, but you are by no means required to make one, or even to read them.
10) Not posting ‘I agree’ and then reiterating all the same points
Why would anyone do that?
11) Back up arguments with evidence
Or at least some form of logic or argument. Stating your opinion 150 different ways means nothing if you can't express your rational behind your opinion.
12) Requiring sources
I wouldn't say they are required, but they are strongly encouraged. A healthy consideration for the authority of specific sources is a must, however.
13) Not expecting our status in the real world to carry any weight here
I would argue that we give considerable weight to a person's background here, but we try not to give too much. We have a fairly good amount of "experts" here for different fields, but we do not take what they say about their fields as scripture. Flaws in their logic or methods are pointed out with the same rigor as any other poster.
What would I add?
One thing which I think is very important about the hatrack community is that it extends far beyond this message board.
Until fairly recently, we had an extremely active AOL Instant Messanger community, both inside of "hatrack chat" and between eachother (which is where I met my girlfriend, and we are now living together). Before that, parachat could sometimes be an active place to talk.
Every year we have fantasy sports leagues for most of the major sports, with various levels of participation.
We play tons of online games with eachother, including Chess, Go, Pictionary (Inklink), Scrabble, Monopoly, City of Heroes, Dungeons and Dragons, and many others.
We have numerous spin-off forums, where any regular here can find familiar faces.
We have gatherings around the country, where we interact more like long-time friends than as strangers.
We date, and even marry eachother .
There's more I could add, but I think that was the main one I wanted to express.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
"2) Not flaming our host 3) Being able to politely disagree with our host"
It has a LOT more to do with OSC's extremely tolerant attitude toward his guests than any lack of flaming or impoliteness.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I agree with aspectre that this is one of the rare author forums out there that is in fact a genuine forum. Most author sites don't feature this level of open discussion.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
The following "Behaviors" are or can be counterproductive:
4) Understanding that style and substance are equally important when posting
I would say this is a huge problem for the forum, not a survival behavior. Substance is vastly more important than style, and thus arguments over style consistently tend to make everyone mad and achieve little. When style is put on equal footing with substance, discussions go awry into matters that lack, well, substance.
5) Understanding that any failure in our communication is always the fault of the party that posted and not the fault of the person reading it.
This is classic advice for writers, but in a realistic sense it is just plain wrong. Failures in communication are caused by the misalignment of BOTH reader and writer. In fact, to use the word "fault" is to miss the point. Nobody is morally or naturally responsible for making communication work - it is something that both parties must work on jointly. And to say it is the fault of the writer when miscommunication occurs is to encourage readers to overlook what they should be doing to understand better.
7) Having a number of ‘fluffy / fun’ threads
The value of "fluff" depends entirely on the quality of the fluff thread. There's good fluff and bad fluff.
12) Requiring sources
While citing sources is good in theory, in practice on a forum like this it becomes an excuse for not giving a real argument. "Becuase such-and-such says so" proves very little, and ultimately those on the opposite side will reject the given source and offer a source of their own that says an equal and opposite thing. Sources are really only any good at supporting an argument if they can offer real observed data to back up any given conclusions, or if they give a convincing argument themselves (in the latter case, it makes more sense to just give the argument rather than the source.)
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Tres, I totally agree ... they can be counter production. (Just to be clear I posted 'behaviours' that I thought should be looked at ... not those I thought were productive)
Are there any particular ideas that you think are cornerstones to the health of this community?
Posts: 571 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
That everyone who can express their opinion in a reasonably socially acceptable manner has an equal right to express their opinion, be it a 15-year-old, a SAHP, a member of the military, a veterinarian, a lawyer, a janitor, or anyone else. (As long, of course, as they can handle having each of their points debated without resorting to name-calling and unthinking rhetoric.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Oh, and also that although we may not care for another's political views or beliefs, when they have a crisis, we share our love and prayers/good thoughts/wishes/vibes, or when a joyful event such as a wedding, graduation, or birth occurs, we rejoice and celebrate with them-- or at least offer congratulations. In other words, the social aspects of being a member of Hatrack are in most cases completely seperate from the political/theological/theoretical debate. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
As illustrated by Tres' post, there will always be someone who disagrees with your basic premise and is therefore almost impossible to reconcile views with.
Actually, for me, that's the case with *most* of Tres' posts. Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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