quote:It takes roughly six weeks to train a US soldier, plus a little specialized training here and there. How long should it take to train Iraqi security forces? Why has it taken years and billions of dollars?
An army is more than a bunch of boot privates. It takes much longer to develop the officer and NCO corps that will lead the new recruits.
quote:It had no applicability to Murtha's actual proposal.
It wasn't quite that far off. I'm still upset that they didn't let Murtha's proposal get shot down as it stood. You know, for a bunch of supposedly corrupt and conniving master politicians, the Republicans are remarkably incompetent.
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quote:You know, for a bunch of supposedly corrupt and conniving master politicians, the Republicans are remarkably incompetent.
The irony is that the reason for their incompetence (when it most displays itself) is their willingness to engage in political strategem instead of actually listening to others. It all comes down to arrogance, a disease which has infected our politicians and political parties to the point that it may well be terminal.
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quote:Originally posted by Nato: The GOP's version demanded immediate withdrawal, and Murtha's proposal sought withdrawal at the "earliest practicable date." The Republican bill was designed not to be passed, it was designed to discredit the proponents of withdrawal. The bill was essentially a straw man. The Republicans presented it as if it were the opponent's argument and then shot it down. It had no applicability to Murtha's actual proposal.
Removing our forces from the region is not a victory for the terrorists. The insurgent attacks are largely directed against the US presence, and without that presence, the main target for attacks is removed. Furthermore, the end goal of this war is to remove our troops and leave a stable Iraq behind, right? There will not be a victory until we're gone.
(Strangely, even though the war's planners claim that our goal is withdrawal, KBR, a subsidiary of Halliburton, is currently building four more permanent bases in the country. How will we ever get rid of the motivations of the insurgency when the occupying army is perpetually there?)
Also... Consider This: It takes roughly six weeks to train a US soldier, plus a little specialized training here and there. How long should it take to train Iraqi security forces? Why has it taken years and billions of dollars?
I agree with Nato. Please take a look at the JFK Vietnam withdrawal plan I posted on another thread. Withdrawal can be in stages. IF a majority of the 'insurgents' are fighting because they want the US to go home, a staged withdrawal to take our people out of harms way and push the elected government to take responsibility for their own people would be a good exit strategy.
We can just move across the borders, temporarily if need be. IF the Iraqis slow or stop the fighting against our presence the Al Qaeda intruders will be easier to spot, and THEIR removal can be accomplished, which is why we are there, right?
quote:If we leave Iraq at its own government's request, our withdrawal will be neither abandonment nor retreat. Law-abiding Iraqis may face more clan violence, Balkanization and foreign incursions if we leave; but they may face more clan violence, Balkanization and foreign incursions if we stay. The president has said we will not leave Iraq to the terrorists. Let us leave Iraq to the Iraqis, who have survived centuries of civil war, tyranny and attempted foreign domination.
Once American troops are out of Iraq, people around the world will rejoice that we have recovered our senses. What's more, the killing of Americans and the global loss of American credibility will diminish. As Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, a Republican and Vietnam veteran, said, "The longer we stay, the more problems we're going to have." Defeatist? The real defeatists are those who say we are stuck there for the next decade of death and destruction.
In a memorandum to President Kennedy, roughly three months after his inauguration, one of us wrote with respect to Vietnam, "There is no clearer example of a country that cannot be saved unless it saves itself." Today, Iraq is an even clearer example.
By THEODORE C. SORENSEN and ARTHUR SCHLESINGER Jr.
There is no reason for us to stay past the time we are welcomed, unless the real reason for us being there is Neocon nation building, and the Iraqi Oil reserves.
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posted
>> staged withdrawal to take our people out of harms way and push the elected government to take responsibility for their own people would be a good exit strategy. <<
1) Is the government ready to take responsibility?
posted
I disagree with the "no reason except" part of that, myself.
There are a lot of reasons...some good, some not so good...for staying at this point. Nto for ever, but for now.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are doing so becaise of your reasons. Some people just have a different opinion on it, and that doesn't automatically make them evil, or wrong, or greedy.
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quote: There is no reason for us to stay past the time we are welcomed
So then there should not be any debate about us leaving now or when we should leave since the Iraqi government wants us there currently
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quote:Silkie: We can just move across the borders, temporarily if need be. IF the Iraqis slow or stop the fighting against our presence the Al Qaeda intruders will be easier to spot, and THEIR removal can be accomplished, which is why we are there, right?
The first step in the transition should be moving out of the urban centers. All the checkpoints around the Green Zone--which is essentially our Forbidden City in Iraq--should be dissolved, and the Iraqis should be given a chance to live freely in the country that they supposeedly govern. As it is, it seems like few Iraqis are taking charge of anything. In one of Bush's recent speeches, he highlighted a certain battle where he said Iraqi forces took the lead. However, eyewitnesses to the battle made it clear that US special forces were ultimately in command still.
quote:So then there should not be any debate about us leaving now or when we should leave since the Iraqi government wants us there currently
80% of the Iraqi people want us gone. 45% of the Iraqi people thing attacks on US forces are justified.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:It takes roughly six weeks to train a US soldier, plus a little specialized training here and there. How long should it take to train Iraqi security forces? Why has it taken years and billions of dollars?
Wow...tern addressed this, but that's just stunning ignorance, Nato.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:We can just move across the borders, temporarily if need be. IF the Iraqis slow or stop the fighting against our presence the Al Qaeda intruders will be easier to spot, and THEIR removal can be accomplished, which is why we are there, right?
Ummm...whose borders do we withdraw across? Iran's? Saudi Arabia's?
quote:There is no reason for us to stay past the time we are welcomed, unless the real reason for us being there is Neocon nation building, and the Iraqi Oil reserves.
Let's dispense with this nonsense. There are many possible reasons aside from those two, and many of them could in fact have more to do with the welfare of the Iraqi people than with our own Administration's.
A not-unlikely situation: suppose a wide variety of intelligence sources inform us that our enemies in Iraq are in fact waiting for a pullout, preparing for that time, at which they will radically increase the tempo of their attacks against the Iraqi government and its people, in an attempt to overthrow it and take control.
That's obviously plausible, and yet the Iraqi people as a whole would not know of this strategy, and so that knowledge would not be reflected in the polls.
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quote:We can just move across the borders, temporarily if need be. IF the Iraqis slow or stop the fighting against our presence the Al Qaeda intruders will be easier to spot, and THEIR removal can be accomplished, which is why we are there, right?
Ummm...whose borders do we withdraw across? Iran's? Saudi Arabia's?
We have bases in surrounding nations, from which we launched our offensive.
I have an article here that answers the ten most used reasons for 'staying the course' in Iraq. He says it much better than I could:
1. Nothing was mentioned about improvements in Iraq (elections, water and energy, schools).
No Saddam to fear! Water and energy delivery as well as schools are worse off than before the U.S. invasion. Ditto for the state of hospitals (and medical supplies), highways, and oil production. Elections are a positive change, but the elected government does not have more than a semblance of actual sovereignty, and therefore the Iraqi people have no power to make real choices about their future. One critical example: The Shiite/Kurdish political coalition now in power ran on a platform whose primary promise was that, if elected, they would set and enforce a timetable for American withdrawal. As soon as they took power, they reneged on this promise (apparently under pressure from the US). They have also proved quite incapable of fulfilling their other campaign promises about restoring services and rebuilding the country; and for that reason (as well as others), their constituents (primarily the Shia) are becoming ever more disillusioned. In the most recent polls, Shia Iraqis now are about 70% in favor of U.S. withdrawal.
2. Nothing was mentioned about Iraqis who want the U.S. to remain (especially the Kurds and the majority of Iraqi women).
Among the three principal ethno-religious groups in Iraq, the Sunnis (about a fifth of the population) are almost unanimous in their opposition to the American presence, while around 70% of the Shia (themselves about 60% of the population) want the U.S. to withdraw. Hence, even before we consider the Kurds, the majority of Iraqis are in favor of a full-scale American departure "as soon as possible." It is true that the Kurds (about 20% of the population) favor the U.S. remaining. However, they have their own militias and many of them do not want significant numbers of American troops in their territory. (The U.S. presence there is small-scale at the moment.) What they desire is a U.S. occupation for someone else, not themselves. I think we can safely say that the vast majority of Iraqis oppose the presence of U.S. troops.
I know of no study indicating that Iraqi women favor the U.S. presence. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that large numbers of women in Iraq are upset and angry over the erosion of their rights since the fall of Saddam. I know some commentators claim that the U.S. presence is insurance against further erosion of those rights, but everything I have read indicates that a significant number of Iraqi women (like all Iraqis) blame the Bush administration for these policies. After all, the Americans installed in power (and continue to support) the political forces spearheading anti-woman policies in the country. Polling data do not indicate that any sizable group of Sunni or Shia women support a continued U.S. presence.
3. Nothing was mentioned about the benefits of the U.S. military gaining valuable experience and knowledge daily.
Certainly, the U.S. gains military and political "experience" from the war, as from any war, but at the expense of many deaths (2,127) and injuries (at least 15,704) to American soldiers. Beyond these publicly listed casualty figures lie the endless ways in which the lives of our soldiers are permanently damaged: On November 26, for example, the New York Times reported on a recent army study indicating that 17% of all personnel sent to Iraq have "serious symptoms of depression, anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder." Since about a million American troops have now seen service in Iraq, approximately 170,000 have gained the "experience" of having a severe mental problem. Moreover, the war experience in Iraq has proved so demoralizing to the military that many of the best soldiers are leaving at the end of their tours, instead of staying on in active or reserve status. This is undermining the viability of the military, long term.
U.S. casualties, of course, have been dwarfed by the damage done to the Iraqi people. Between 25,000 and 40,000 Iraqi civilians are dying each year -- and multitudes are injured. We are wrecking the country's infrastructure.
Certainly there is a better way to gain experience than this.
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