posted
Just curious how different people feel about this situation.
Scenerio A girl is at a party and has been 'talking' to one of the guys that is there. They haven't dated at all. Just have been talking on the phone because they met at a previous time where he got her number and kissed her goodbye. The guy asks the girl to go somewhere private. The girl follows and they start "hooking up" she puts a stop to it and tells the guy she doesn't want to go any further because shes really into him and doesn't want to mess it up. He says "We wont go any further than you want to". So eventually they stop and go back downstairs to the party. The girl ends up drinking MANY more beers and when the guy asks her to go upstairs she agrees. This time too drunk to stop what was tried earlier so it happens.
I just want your thoughts on this situation. Who's to blame. Did someone do wrong here? Were both parties completely at fault? No harm done? Just curious to what different people think about this situation.
ps. The guy doesn't call after the situation for two days. She brings it up to him online and asks what it meant and he said "i dont want a relationship right now"
Posts: 82 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Hmm, I don't know you very well - heck, I don't even know if you're a guy or a girl - but do you mind if I ask if this girl in the scenario is really you? Or the guy?
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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This would be one of the reasons I don't think drinking to excess is a good idea - people end up doing things they would otherwise say no to.
I think both parties were at fault. Her for drinking to excess and losing the ability to stop anything. Him for pushing her even though he knew how she felt and, most likely, for knowing that, as soon as it was all done, it would be over.
Yeah, I'm probably going to get flak for giving her some of the blame. Oh well.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Yeah, I'm probably going to get flak for giving her some of the blame. Oh well.
Not from me, you aren't. While I think the guy is more to blame in this situation, I also feel the girl wasn't making the smartest decision when she went with him in the first place, told him all that, and then drank herself to oblivion! Yeah, the guy lied about his intentions - although, I wonder exactly how drunk he was too... - but the girl definitely put herself in the spot.
quote:She brings it up to him online and asks what it meant and he said "i don't want a relationship right now".
Well, did he say he was looking for one in the first place? If not, he maybe just wanted to have fun at the party. That isn't an excuse for what he did, and yeah, he should have called. It's just that the girl shouldn't expect something that was never promised.
Edit: I'm also curios what exactly did the girl think about the whole situation.
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
While the girl should not have gotten drunk...it is not a good idea to be impaired around people you are not 100% sure you can trust and going back upstairs was a bad idea, the guy was in the wrong, and if the girl reported him, he could be charged with rape. When someone says no, there is no excuse to continue. The fact that he waited until she was more inebriated is very disgusting in my opinion.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:the guy was in the wrong, and if the girl reported him, he could be charged with rape. When someone says no, there is no excuse to continue. The fact that he waited until she was more inebriated is very disgusting in my opinion.
Ah, but she also said "yes" and went willingly with him upstairs. And we don't know the state of his inebriation either, so if it is an excuse for her, it is also an excuse for him. No?
In other words, both are to blame. It's unlikely that the law is going to call it rape if she was capable of verbal communication and ambulatory immediately prior to the sex act.
Ultimately, it's not about blame, but about responsibility. In that respect, both of them made some serious errors in not knowing their sex partner's history, and, I assume, in not doing much to avoid pregnancy or spread of STDs, should those be an issue.
The guy is clearly an opportunistic &*%**, so we can add that black mark to his side of the ledger. But sadly, both are acting irresponsibly and could face serious problems as a result.
I hope they both learn from it, but it appears unlikely in the guy's case. At least the woman can, we hope, go away from this wiser and more careful of her own heart and body in the future.
PS: I admit I could be wrong about the "protection," and this could just all come down to a night of drunken passion with nothing more serious than a bruised ego to show for it. I'd call that learning the lesson about taking care of one's own heart (and not drinking to excess) cheaply, all things considered.
PPS: If the guy is as big a jerk as this scenario makes him out to be, he probably won't learn anything from it. It's sad, because going through life securing copulations under dubious circumstances and treading on other people's hearts is not really a good path. It probably makes him a little bit deader each time he "scores."
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote: And we don't know the state of his inebriation either
That's the part that I was going to point out. Although the scenario tells us the girl had too much to drink before going upstairs, it doesn't mention the state of the boy.
If he was just as drunk, they could have BOTH been doing something they would have otherwise regretted doing (something they would have avoided if they had both been sober). If he was dead sober and she was rolling drunk, that brings a different perspective.
But, yeah -- why I gave up alcohol 20 years ago could pretty much be entailed in that story above.
posted
A girl got very drunk at a party held at a group house that I lived in during my Sophomore year of college. She spent the night in my bed.
All I got out of it was a new mattress.
PS: I was away on a trip and so my room was used by my housemates as the drunk tank. They realized the error of their ways and got me a new mattress and cleaned up a bit before I got home.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I think it is the fault of both parties involved. I agree that the boy was wrong in asking her to go upstairs, but I also think that the girl should not have had so much to drink. It's common knowledge that alcohol impedes on one's judgement and she should have known this before hand. I would have thought that she would have considered this before getting completely drunk.
This is not to excuse the boy's actions either, although I would be curious to know how much he had to drink as well. If he was completely sober, than I would say he took advantage of her vulnerable state. He should have respected the fact that she didn't want to hook up with him.
Another thing to consider - the reason the boy didn't call afterwards could have possibly been because he was embarassed. I just thought I would put that out there.
Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:It's unlikely that the law is going to call it rape if she was capable of verbal communication and ambulatory immediately prior to the sex act.
I was led to believe in high school phys ed that this isn't the case and that if the girl is drunk and didn't/doesn't want it, even if her mind "changed" during oblivion, that it is still rape. Yes, that does put the blame almost entirely on the boy, who was no doubt also drunk, but I was always taught that a drunken "yes" is not a "yes" at all.
(This is a hypothetical thing for me, though, and I think the drunken "yes" = no idea is mostly for the male half of the population).
Also, although I agree strongly that the girl should have had friends around who knew she didn't want, should not have drunk so much and all that, the boy should have definately realised that she was very drunk. I hate to say this because I do not drink very often at all and never in this sort of situation and I would be very aware of this kind of thing, but to suggest that a girl who has said no has to restrict her drinking (again, this basically crosses all my principles) because the "no" responsibility is entirely on her. If you know what I mean. Especially if the boy was fairly aware of what was going on.
However, this boy could hypothetically have been planning this all evening though. All day. All week. Then it would look much more like rape.
I think the intent (which of course we cannot know) is very important here and can change a harmless mistake into something more nasty.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
But, what is "drunk?" I assume that the boy's attorney is going to have a few questions to ask about whether the boy gave her drinks, whether she has ever been drunk and had sex before, whether she remembers saying yes, whether she recalls walking up the stairs...then, I assume, there'd be witnesses to her walking upstairs with him, etc., etc.
Proving that he planned it would also be pretty darned hard.
Sure, a good prosecutor could make it LOOK like rape, but a good defense attorney could make it look consensual, with or without the assistance of alcohol.
And since the defendant has the right to face his accusers, but can avoid taking the stand altogether, it'd probably be a pretty rough trial for the girl should it come to that.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Having said all that, if she believes she was raped, then she should report it to the police immediately and talk to a victim's aide about the best course of action.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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How many people who only drink in moderation have occasionally, rarely, or even once, drunk more than they intended? In my experience it seems to be pretty close to 100%. When you are imbibing something that impairs your judgement, then you can't trust your judgement totally on when to quit imbibing.
How many alcoholics realized they would become alcoholics when they first began drinking? This number seems to be very close to 0%.
How much pain, suffering, death, illness, damaged lives, damaged childhoods, damaged relationships, domestic violence, car wrecks, injury, domestic vomiting, domestic maudlin scenes, domestic peeing all over oneself and the bed, carpet, drapes, etc. has come about because of alcohol? This amount is considerably large.
How much money is spent on alcohol that could better be spent on food, rent, utilties, books and education, medical care, good nutrition, and other positive benefits for the people involved? This amount is also rather great.
What is the payoff? What pleasure, joy, benefit, goodness, happiness, health, nutrition does alcohol bring? I can only see one, "Wooooooo Paaaaarty! Yipee!"
Is that a good trade off? All of you people who make choices in your lives. Do you see anything missing in my reasoning? What choice makes most sense for you?
I am so happy to be part of a community of people who choose not to use alcohol. I wish my family for generations had been part of such a community and had so chosen. Much damage and pain could have been avoided thereby.
I'm sorry this happened to that couple. I hope that less damage was done than might have been. I hope they recover from the damage that was done and choose better in the future.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Don't worry i'm not offended by anything you say because this is why i put this story out there. I honestly want to know and understand both sides of the issue because i'm thoroughly perplexed to what to feel about it.
I know one feeling i do feel is 'Used' that is unmistaken.
He had less to drink than me for sure, but he wasn't completely sober either.
I also know that drinking more was a bad decision.
You're right Corwin on the relationship comment. He never said anything about a relationship or a promise of one. BUT he also knew how I felt about him.
Also after the initial relationship conversation we didn't talk for about a week. Then he calls and is like "so you wanna hang out?" and he didn't understand why i was confused.
Then one of my friends saw him at a party and said that he was trying to get with this other girl all night long. hmm.
The reason a lot of you dont know me all too well is because i'm more of a reader than a poster.
Let me know if you want to know anything more..
Posts: 82 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
<<<<<ifmyheartcouldbeat>>>>> I'm very sorry. He sounds like a real cad. It's amazing how well some of those can simulate being interesting, genuine people long enough to make people care about them.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I believe there's some pretty concrete evidence about the health benefits (mostly heart-related, IIRC) of drinking red wine on a semi-regular basis. I realize that's not your point, but just playing devil's advocate regarding the whole alcohol thing.
On topic. ((((ifmyheartcouldbeat))))
At the very least, I hope you see a counselor about what happened. Good luck.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote: The guy is clearly an opportunistic &*%**, so we can add that black mark to his side of the ledger. But sadly, both are acting irresponsibly and could face serious problems as a result.
Not to say that this is the case here, but I believe that there are some women who drink for an excuse to be irresponsible, too.
quote: The girl ends up drinking MANY more beers and when the guy asks her to go upstairs she agrees. This time too drunk to stop what was tried earlier so it happens.
As someone who regularly drank to excess for many years, I never got to the point where I didn't know what I was doing. While I have known some people who supposedly drank a lot and were capable of speech and movement, but claimed later to be 'blacked out' and not remember anything, imho this is kind of a rarity and takes some practice to achieve this level of drunkenness. I don't get the sense from the above that that's the case here, and in any case, if you get that drunk, it's still you that's pouring the booze down your throat.
My point here is not to be a dick, but to say that you shouldn't blame the booze for your bad decisions. As Bob mentiond, the guy is no more a 'cad' for asking you to sleep with him while drunk than you are for agreeing to it.
Don't blame the booze. You did it. He did it. That's all.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Do you see anything missing in my reasoning?
I do, actually. A few things. First, by your reasoning, nobody should ever do anything frivolous that has any significant risk of harm. Second, that some (or even many) people use something horribly irresponsibly does not imply that I will. Other people use alcohol more irresponsibly than I do, so I should refrain from doing something I enjoy? That doesn't follow.
Have I ever been way too drunk? Yup. However, I've also done way more stupid things while sober than the absolute stupidest things I've ever done while drunk. The only real difference is that in some cases my drunken stupidity was followed by some vomiting. I don't see that as sufficient reason not to drink. Also, what portion of the people who have consumed an alcoholic beverage have gone on to become alcoholics, versus (say) the portion of the people who have smoked a cigarette who have gone on to become chain smokers? Alcohol can be addictive if you're not careful, but I see that as a reason to surround yourself with people who care about you and will say something if they see you developing a problem. I don't see the potential for alcoholism as sufficient reason not to drink either.
In this particular case, both parties made mistakes and those mistakes were compounded by alcohol. The guy was a jerk, the girl made a bad decision. She should put this particular jerk behind her and think nothing more of him.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:but claimed later to be 'blacked out' and not remember anything, imho this is kind of a rarity and takes some practice to achieve this level of drunkenness
actually, i don't think it is all that hard to acheive. I have a pretty low tolerance, being short and a relatively new drinker. I have gotten very drunk and done really stupid things that i was aware i was doing when i did them. And then there were the two occasions where i apparently did things that i have absolutely no memory of -- one of which was so obviously ridiculous and bizarre that i couldn't possibly have been, you know, "blocking it out" or pretending it didn't happen.
As to this scenario, i know that imhcb remembers what happened, and was conscious during everything, so she's not really wondering "is this/isn't this rape?" so much as "did he take advantage of me/was it equal fault?"
Personally, while i think it was equal fault up until sex entered the equation -- the guy had obviously been made aware of her disinterest in anything more serious than making out. And since he was definitely a) less drunk and b) aware of her feelings, then he's definitely *more* in the wrong.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Her feelings apparently changed and you don't know that he was 'less drunk', whatever that means. Do not people change their minds? Further, if she was so drunk, how does she really know how much that he drank?
Look, drunk doesn't change anything. He could have been stone, cold sober, and if she said 'yes', well, sorry. She said yes. I refuse to give people who alter their minds themselves an excuse. Does the guy have an excuse for being drunk and sleeping with her? No. None of you give him that, why give it to her?
If she were sober and changed her mind, not one of you would defend her. But because she was 'drunk' and he was 'less drunk', this guy somehow magically made her say 'yes' and then not say no after that? I'm sorry, but that is pure bs and sexist. They are both equally at fault.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
It wasn't rape, not according to the law anyway, at least not in a provable way, IMO.
I would still go see a counsler about it though, although make sure you tell them the same thing you told us here that you changed your mind..they will be eager to call it rape, but just because they do doesn't mean a court or a judge would agree with them.
He is an a$$, and there is no excuse for his actions...but being drunk is no excuse for yours either, at least not completely.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I do think that he is not a gentleman. It seems to me that his failing was to not save you from yourself. There is a scene in The Philadelphi Story where Katharine Hepburn wakes up with a hangover and looks in horror at Jimmy Stewart. "Did we...?" "No, you weren't yourself."
That's what we wish would happen. This guy did take the advantage handed to him. I'm sorry - I do think it would be good to talk to somebody professional about it, and to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Just to reiterate again -- she doesn't think it *was* rape. See my above post for further clarification! Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:George denounces her, feeling that he has a right to be angry: "On the very eve of your wedding, an affair with another man." Finally, Mike speaks up, confirming that nothing happened:
Mike: Kittredge, it may interest you to know that the so-called 'affair' consisted of exactly two kisses and a rather late swim...All of which I thoroughly enjoyed, and the memory of which I wouldn't part with for anything... After which I deposited Tracy on her bed in her room, and promptly returned down here to you two - which doubtless you'll remember.
Looking at Mike all the time during the explanation, Tracy is astonished and suddenly turns on him - angrily demanding to know why he didn't advance on her. He replies that he didn't want to take advantage of her when she was drunk:
Tracy: Why? Was I so unattractive, so distant, so forbidding, or something - that - ? George: Well, this is fine talk, too. Tracy: I'm asking a question. Mike: You were extremely attractive, and as for distant and forbidding, on the contrary. But you also were a little the worse - or the better - for wine, and there are rules about that. Tracy: Thank you, Mike. I think men are wonderful.
Wow, that movie should be in the fantasy section.
I understand, Leo. I think it is equal fault all the way through, though. Just as a "No" does not mean "Yes", a "No" once does not trump over a "Yes" later. He shouldn't have taken advantage of the situation, but if she went along willingly, even while drunk, then it isn't fair to charge him with being more at fault.
I sort of resent the suggestion otherwise, actually. It is infantilizing - that he should have known she didn't want to even though she was going along with it. It holds him more responsible for her actions than she is. That's not just unfair to him, it's demeaning to her.
In other words, while it's romantic, that scene in A Philadelphia Story is more than a little sexist. Tracy is not a child that needs to be sheltered from her own decisions - growing up means knowing that no one is responsible for saving you.
if, when I went to traffic school a few years a go for *ahem* educational reasons, the instructor wished us all a small accident in order that we understood that bad things could happen to us while driving. Something that would wake us up and make sure we took all the proper precautions from then on.
I sincerely hope that this is your small accident where the worse thing that happens to you is that your pride is hurt.
Along those lines, are you on birth control? Did he wear a condom? Regardless, you know that you need to get yourself checked out for STDs now and, I think, in about six months, right? Please bite the bullet and make it happen. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I'm always slightly bemused when we agree, Stormy. I'm not sure if it is me or you that is acting outside their expected alignment.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Not to belabor the rape point, but I wanted to ask pH where she got that bit about an inebriated woman can't consent to sex? Is that personal opinion or were you quoting FL statutes or something? I'm pretty sure that the reality of the law is vastly different from your assertion, and I think there's a problem with teaching that particular viewpoint to women if it isn't true from a legal point of view.
posted
I was in no way blaming the alcohol for what I did. I would never use it as an excuse. I did not "black out" or claim to.
But i clearly wasn't in any shape to be making a decision.
I do believe we're both at fault. We have mutual friends and i can't avoid this guy. My question is...
Should i be angry at him? Or Should i take my bruised prided self and be civil?
I just didn't know if i even have the right to be mad considering the circumstances.
I believe he did wrong (so did I) and my friends believe he is wrong. But in both cases the parties are biased (obviously). Which is why i figured id throw it out here.
This situation is a new one to me. So i didn't know quite how to react. Especially when i know i'm going to run into him again.
Posts: 82 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Should i be angry at him? Or Should i take my bruised prided self and be civil?
Oh yeah. I'd be mad as heck. He was not a gentleman. In the above situation, I'd be even more mad for the way he treated me afterward. You don't have to throw a fit every time you see him, but he's clearly not one of the good guys and is not worth your time. Y'all can go to the same parties without interacting too much.
Please remember the bruised pride and your current regret, and not be in the same situation. If you do still drink at parties and would like someone to watch out for you, make sure it's a girl friend who isn't drinking. It's possible he'll try again if he finds you in a similar state. *hugs*
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
You do have reason to be upset, both at yourself and at him. Having to socialize with him will definately be awkward. I'm not sure how you should handle that situation. Unfortunately he'll never see it as more than a one-night stand and it probably didn't even cross his mind that you liked him as much as he did. Be more careful in the future okay? (((HUGS)))
Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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YES! You should be as angry as a hornet. Were I you, I would let this guy know that he is an abusive and ugly person, and while you do not entirely blame him for the incident, you also feel like he took advantage of you in an obviously compromised position. He knew your wishes and should have respected them. Whether he wants to argue with you about or not, the bottom line is that if he were anything but scum, he would've backed off and waited until the situation was more obviously mutual.
I'd also let him know that you find the very thought of him utterly repulsive and that it is your wish to never be alone with him ever, and should he ever find that such a situation is about to occur, you would appreciate it if he acted the gentleman and withdrew immediately.
I'm sure you could find less corny language than what I've posted, but honestly, I would think you are entirely within your rights to develop a strong antipathy toward this person. He has proven himself to be anything but a gentleman and to be at least enough of a sociopath to care more about his gonads than about being just a decent human being.
IMHO, you should avoid him like the plague.
Sadly, it sounds like he's part of a circle of friends and you might end up seeing one of your close friends engaged to this creep.
I'm sorry this has happened.
And I second Storm's advice about getting checked.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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The element of consent actually goes to the (objective, not subjective) mind of the raper, not the victim.
So if someone says Yes but really means No, even if they are drunk, it's not rape. (That doens't mean it's not wrong, of course).
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I agree with the avoid him like the plauge part, and the he is not a gentleman part, but not so much the getting angry part.
What purpose will getting angry serve?
Yes, he took advantage, no, you shouldn't trust him, but if I were you I'd be less interested in telling him off than in protecting myself from further emotional pain.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
As to where I got the drunk=cannot consent thing, it was from a law class. Drunk people also aren't liable for contracts they enter into while drunk. Also, I know girls who've had to go to the hospital because of similar incidents, and they consider it rape and offer to help file appropriate police reports, if the girl thinks it necessary (they've all refused to do so, however). But it's possible that in those cases, the girls never said yes to begin with. Although personally, I don't consider going to be alone/fool around with someone to be the same as consenting to sex.
Anyways, that aside, this guy sounds like frat boy scum. I'm sorry this happened to you, ifmyheartcouldbeat. I left you an IM with my working email.
posted
She was. You intentionally intoxicate yourself, you are responsible for your mental and emotional states as well as your decisions. Drugs may explain a choice, but they do not excuse it. I do not approve of the guy's actions, but he did not do anything "wrong" if I am understanding the story correctly. His subsequent behavior makes him a jerk IMO.
Either learn to say no when drunk and keep saying it, or cut back on the drinking. If I were you I would have no desire for further contact with him. Nothing I type looks right for this sentiment, but I do sympathise.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Thanks pH. Interesting. You can be responsible causing deaths while driving drunk, but not for these other things. Odd.
As for the anger bit, I should've added that anger is a useful emotion for certain things, like affecting change in oneself or (in controlled ways) in getting a point across to others.
I don't recommend it as a lifestyle choice, though. It's important to learn from this and to keep this guy (and others like him) in a position where they can do no more harm to you. If your anger leads you down a path that is personally destructive (fixating on the event, wanting to physically harm him in retribution, hating men in general, etc., etc., then that's not good or useful at all).
Ultimately, forgiving yourself and him is more important than being angry about it now. This is by no means the end of the world and you shouldn't let it become a focal point for anything. It's a learning experience and we all make mistakes, sometimes large, sometimes small.
Learn from it, and, as much as possible, be the person making choices in your life so that you can more closely be the person you wish to be.
Like all of us, you now have a "what a dope I was" moment to use for instruction and for guiding you in your understanding and compassion towards others.
I'm a little ashamed that I haven't expressed more of that in my posts here, really. It's not like most of us don't have events to look back on and cringe.
Been there, or close enough that it makes no difference, and had MY heart stomped into mush. I can't undo it, and, in many ways, I wouldn't want to since I consider the lesson rather valuable and I'm glad I learned it at all.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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Just to reiterate again -- she doesn't think it *was* rape. See my above post for further clarification! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
