posted
Well, I've already been through the life-changing confession and repentance part, and truly feel born again. But the lay-pastor that brought me to that point, his church has specific rules about what is appropriate for women to wear (which I don't know that I agree/disagree with, but it makes the wife very angry).
It would be nice to have a nice little chart - this religion has this stand on this topic, but life is never that simple. <sigh>
I have completely de-railed another thread. Dang it.
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posted
I think it's true, or at least generally true. Obviously I cannot speak with certainty to the specifics of the truth of that sort of thing, but like David Bowles, twinky, Tom Davidson and others I believe that for God to be just and worthy of worship, some version of that scene must be true.
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(Thanks Rakeesh) Something about that scene kind of piqued my attention when I read it last. MrSquicky's timely reference kind of ties it all in - sounds pretty reasonable to me.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: However, even still, to gain all that the father has he would need to be baptized because that ordinance had not taken place. He would get a chance to accept it, along with everyone else who had not had the opportunity in life.
Well, that would be a good trick in this case, since The Last Battle describes the end of the world. Everyone dies! Moreover, Aslan is apparently a bit less picky about rituals and such than most of the Christian versions.
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quote:Yes, those who didn't have an opportunity to get baptized during this life will have the chance to accept in the next. The baptism is done for them by proxy here, after they have died.
There's so many chances!
I see it like back up files on a computer. Even if you don't save yourself, the computer saves for you.
(We've talked about this particular thing before, haven't we? I remember explaining why I wouldn't want people to baptize me.)
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quote:Originally posted by Will B: True or not? I don't know. God didn't tell us. I would like to think it's true.
See Squick's post.
And, TomD's. The Christian God is supposed to be "good". By any definition of "good" this scene would have to play. Remember that you are talking (hypothetically) about someone who has grown up immersed in a completely anti-Aslan culture... the equivalent of being taught, from the cradle, that Aslan was the devil himself... and who has done his best to live honorably and rightly, as such rightness was taught to him.
By Christian doctrine, we are God's children. Now if your child were kidnapped and taught from the cradle that you were the evilest, most vile person in existence, would you honestly reject them for merely not knowing that your proper title was "father"? If you, who are human, know how to have compassion on your own child, how much more does your father in heaven, who is perfect in compassion and love. If your version of god cannot see fit to have mercy on his own child for doing his level best and managing to love and respect even where he has been taught to hate, you seriously need to take a very hard, honest look at why you follow him.
Edit: WillB, if this seems harsh towards you, I think it's because it's very colored by my view of dh's posts as well.
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posted
While I agree with what Lewis wrote, I think it's prone to misinterpretation. I don't believe anyone could be saved without eventually recognizing that Christ is God. Thus a noble and good non-Christian would still have to admit to the truth of Christ's divinity before being saved, just as Tisroc had to recognize Aslan as the source of all good and reject Tash. I don't think it's an automatic, rather that it is a choice.
So I guess I'd say that good works alone are not a guarantee of salvation; they must be accompanied by an acceptance of Christ. That acceptance may come early or late, but must come before a person can be saved.
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Hell, if Christ were standing before me after my death, I'd be going, "Yep, divine alright." I thought what you had to accept was that he has the right to tell you how to live your life, to dictate your choices, etc.
That is what all that "taking on the mind of Christ" and "accepting him into your heart" is about, isn't it? Subjugating your will to his? If that's what God really wants (as opposed to, say, what Christian leaders want), then I can't see that Lewis's or even Senoj's scenarios are workable.
And if God doesn't want from us what the Bible patently says he does, then what's the point of the Bible? What's the point of even "mere" Christianity?
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posted
The concept of "surrendering to the will of God" is a pretty deep one, I think... I wish I my thoughts on the subject could do it justice... but I would say that it has very little to do with dictation or subjugation.
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quote: The concept of "surrendering to the will of God" is a pretty deep one, I think... I wish I my thoughts on the subject could do it justice... but I would say that it has very little to do with dictation or subjugation.
Where does it differ in the symptoms?
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quote: Hell, if Christ were standing before me after my death, I'd be going, "Yep, divine alright." I thought what you had to accept was that he has the right to tell you how to live your life, to dictate your choices, etc.
I think that the latter part flows from the former. Well, not even so much “has the right” – anyone has the right to tell you anything they want. Someone who sees God clearly would want to behave in ways pleasing to God.
In other words, you don’t do such things to become a Christian you do them because you are a Christian.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Where does it differ in the symptoms?
phew... I wish I could just sit and speak from personal experience, here, but I'm afraid my "testimony" would be too jumbled to follow. My ideas on redemption were... hmmm... both radically changed and fulfilled by what I experienced in therapy over the last couple of years. If I could write coherently about it I would have done it already, believe me.
I *will* say this: I think that, among other things, being yourself is essential to following God's will... I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's closer to self-actualization than self-denial.
I'm sorry... if I think of better to say, I'll surely post it.
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quote:I *will* say this: I think that, among other things, being yourself is essential to following God's will... I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's closer self-actualization than self-denial.
I like this thought.
(Not that I count, since I'm not Christian at this moment.)
-o-
Like Tom, I have difficulty with the implication that if you haven't found God, you haven't looked. I suspect that most Christians have not devoted as much time to the practice and study of Christianity as I have. I believe in God. I feel a strong yearning to worship in a community, but I can't feel the truth in any community I am familiar with. When I ask people about their beliefs and outlook, I frequently get the assumption that I'm starting from a position of seeking to not believe, or that I have not prayed. (Because, clearly, if I prayed I would come to believe as you do.)
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I have difficulty with the implication that if you haven't found God, you haven't looked.
ooh... "if you seek, you shall find" is a maxim I live by, but I never meant it the way you take it here... to me it's a matter of hope that all will indeed end well and a reassurance that God will not turn away anyone who is genuinely looking for the truth... as illustrated wonderfully by Mr. Lewis, to bring us full circle. Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I can tell you that, based on what men claim about him in the various books they say he inspired them to write, I'm not all that inspired to given up my own (admittedly illusory) volition in order to form part of whatever wild plan he's got in store for me.
However
As you will note in my other posts elsewhere, I do think it is a sweet and beautiful thing to feel you're part of something vast and mysterious. I totally respect those of you who feel this way. I just... can't or don't or whatever.
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I disagree very much with Jim-Me's assertion that one follows God by living according to the dictates of one's self.
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So do I. Vehemently. It's basically saying "If it feels good to you, do it, and if you're sincere about it you'll get into heaven in the end. So everybody, do whatever you want!" Very popular sort of theory, because everybody can concentrate on what they themselves want other than what God wants.
Unfortunately, as they will (or should) teach you in any philosophy class, truth is not dependant on whether or not you feel good about it.
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posted
DH, seriously, I'm very glad I don't believe in your God. I always get the impression that I wouldn't like Him very much at all.
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If I thought He existed, I'd dislike Him. Yeah.
I mean, really, all else aside, doesn't it bug you that you ascribe all these highly less-than-good attributes to God? At some point, don't you stop and go "I would most definitely not buy a Christmas card for this deity, so I'm a little concerned about the whole 'worshipping Him' part?"
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quote:Someone who sees God clearly would want to behave in ways pleasing to God.
I disagree with this pretty strongly. If God is actually pretty much like the entity that many Christians worship, I plan on rejecting him when I see him in the afterlife. I will not worship or surrend my will to a deity that appears evil to me.
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quote:Someone who sees God clearly would want to behave in ways pleasing to God.
I disagree with this pretty strongly. If God is actually pretty much like the entity that many Christians worship, I plan on rejecting him when I see him in the afterlife. I will not worship or surrend my will to a deity that appears evil to me.
Unfortunately, that's not something you get to do in the afterlife. If the God that we Christans worship exists, then I'm afraid most of the rest of it comes as a package deal. You reject him or accept him here, and you face the consequences of your choice there. You have your entire life to make up your mind. It will be rather too late once you're dead to speak of accepting or rejecting.
That is, if we crazy extremist fundamentalist Christians are right at all, of course.
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quote:Originally posted by David Bowles: I'm not all that inspired to given up my own (admittedly illusory) volition in order to form part of whatever wild plan he's got in store for me.
... and I'm not willing to give it up as an illusion, which is one of the pillars of my theism-- I take a real will as a first principle. Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I think Katharina and dh both have a very distorted view of what I meant by that.... but since I'm not able to articulate myself on the subject, I can hardly blame them, can I?
Suffice it to say that I do *not* mean merely "living by the dictates of one's self", much less just doing whatever you feel like and ending up in heaven.
Asserting that truth feels good and will set you free is *not* the same as asserting that whatever feels good or has the least rules is true.
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posted
Aw, Tom, stop fighting it. When he said "If you lose your life for my sake, you will find it.", he wasn't kidding around.
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quote:Someone who sees God clearly would want to behave in ways pleasing to God.
I disagree with this pretty strongly. If God is actually pretty much like the entity that many Christians worship, I plan on rejecting him when I see him in the afterlife. I will not worship or surrend my will to a deity that appears evil to me.
You are being rather prejudiced there. On this thread, alone, the number of Christians who have supported you, for example, is rather larger than the number of Christians who don't.
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quote:Originally posted by Will B: True or not? I don't know. God didn't tell us. I would like to think it's true.
See Squick's post.
Done. (Actually, I'd already read it.) Jesus said he wouldn't spend eternity with those who don't do what he says regarding good works; it is not completely unambiguous that it's also true that those who never heard of him may be saved. I would like to think so. (I do think so, but it's just my speculation.)
quote:If your version of god cannot see fit to have mercy ...
Well, you're right that your post does seem excessively harsh, but it's good to be aware of it. I try not to have a version of God. As I said, I'd like to think you're right. I just don't have firm evidence, and I think it's important not to take my opinions and enshrine them as God's words. (Or anyone else's.) That said, if God tells me in a vision you're wrong about this (!), I'll be surprised, dismayed, and a host of other angst-like emotions.
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posted
Jim, If it helps, I completely understood what you were saying. You sound like you're skating periluously close to Pelagianism, though.
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quote:It will be rather too late once you're dead to speak of accepting or rejecting.
Sounds very merciful and forgiving to me. I guess those poor jerks raised in India who saw a nun once are just outta luck.
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quote:I disagree very much with Jim-Me's assertion that one follows God by living according to the dictates of one's self.
I did not think that this is what Jim-Me was asserting. Rather, I thought he was responding to the idea of losing yourself in God's plan by saying that you would actually find yourself by "surrendering" to God.
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posted
Will, I don't think you understand that passage very well. Jesus laid out, clearly, the essentials of salvation. That is, doing good works to others because, as you do good works to others, you are actually doing them to him, even if you don't know it.
The people who got salvation asked, "When did we do this? We never saw you." I don't see it as ambiguous in that passage that people who did good works but didn't know or follow Jesus would get salvation.
edit: Likewise, the converse that people who did not do good works to their fellow man (and thus Jesus) do not get salvation (no matter how much they accept Jesus as their personal savior) is pretty darn clear.
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posted
Icky, what he said was ambiguious that I suspect we are both interpreting it. I don't agree with your paraphrase - I think you're adding stuff to bring it more in line with you could believe.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Jim, If it helps, I completely understood what you were saying. You sound like you're skating periluously close to Pelagianism, though.
I'm relieved to hear that I'm skating close to anything... I had no idea I was making enough sense to be heretical
and Catholics are supposed to be "semi-pelagians" anyhow (seriously, that's a common charge that Protestants bring against modern Catholics)
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I mean, really, all else aside, doesn't it bug you that you ascribe all these highly less-than-good attributes to God?
Just because they seem highly less-than-good to you does not make them so. It could just as easily mean that you have a less-than-accurate understanding of what is good.
Out of curiosity Tom, how do you personally determine if something is good? What does your morality derive from if you reject God? (This is an open question to any atheists who believe in "good"; and it's not meant accusatorily, I'm honestly just wondering).
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Jim, The Prods are just saying that Catholics don't completely accept the depravity of man. Pelagianism is still consider a heresy by the Church. Personally, I say bully for you. If you're going heretical, Pelagianism is the one to go for, in my opinion.
---
edit: The classical form of the statement that Jim may be groping towards is that the true personal impulses either come from God or are alligned with God's purpose and that when you act against God you are actually deceiving and distorting your true self. In this view, discovering your true self necessarily involves discovering God, not as a goal or cause, but as a result.
This is a strong form of the Pelegain heresy (and also a common basis for Christian humanism) and is opposed by the orthodox tradition that human nature is basically evil due to Original Sin and that it is only through God's outside intervention that goodness is possible.
I personally think that Origianl Sin hypothesis is absurd and part of the whole "We worship an evil god.", but YMMV.
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quote: What does your morality derive from if you reject God?
My take on about six thousand years of accumulated philosophy and theology.
Which is really what most theists derive their morality from, too, although they won't admit it. *grin*
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Jesus laid out, clearly, the essentials of salvation. That is, doing good works to others because, as you do good works to others, you are actually doing them to him, even if you don't know it...I don't see it as ambiguous in that passage that people who did good works but didn't know or follow Jesus would get salvation.
To claim that one parable encapsulates the essentials of salvation is a bit absurd. Christ said elsewhere (John 14:6) "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Do these scriptures contradict each other? I don't think so. I think the parable could better be read as saying that good works are a requisite for salvation, but not necessarily the only requisite.
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quote: DH, seriously, I'm very glad I don't believe in your God. I always get the impression that I wouldn't like Him very much at all.
Yikes! Me, too, Tom. If I thought God was like that I would leap on the agnostic bandwagon rather than being the good Catholic girl that I am.
Instead I place my faith in God's infinite compassion. How compassionate is it to send someone to hell on a technicality?
And I think that Jim was making very good sense. If I am true to myself as God created me then I fulfill God's plan for me. The times I fail are when I stray from that. That comes from a belief that we, like all of God's works, are created good.
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posted
And I think your interpretation of John is faulty. I see it as in line with the idea that "When you do good or ill to others, you are doing it to me." and the quotation that started this thread.
Jesus doesn't hedge on that parable. There is no equivocation or ambiguity. He clearly describes the sorting and the method that is used for the sorting, with no caveats.
Jesus was not much given to equivocation. However, many of the things he clearly said you are to do are hard, and it seems that equivocation creeps in.
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quote: What does your morality derive from if you reject God?
My take on about six thousand years of accumulated philosophy and theology.
That doesn't quite get me there. What basis do you have for accepting some ideas/beliefs/actions as good and rejecting others? For example what aspects of dh's view of God do you believe were less-than-good and why? Is it logical or is it just your feeling on the matter?
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I don't agree with your paraphrase - I think you're adding stuff to bring it more in line with you could believe.
and what do you base that on? how do you know I wasn't just about to type "right on, Icky! exactly!" (which I honestly would have, except I didn't think he needed my reassurance)
WillB, I apologize, I didn't mean my post in response to yours to be harsh or personal... I did a poor job of that, especially considering that I edited it.
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posted
My point Squick, and maybe I didn't make it effectively with John, is that the NT is peppered with statements by Christ and the apostles about what we must do to be saved. To say this parable enumerates all the requirements seems to neglect a lot of other scripture.
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posted
I think she's basing it on the fact that you were not very clear to begin with. While Icky was perhaps agreeing with what you meant to say, he was not repeating what you said; he was giving his opinion on what you meant to say.
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