posted
Does Obama have any chance at winning the governorship in Illinois? Senators have a very tough row to hoe. Hillary will back in from here "white house" experience if she makes it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Nope, no data. I'm just going to go with my two eyes and ears. Of course, your mileage may vary.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:But I do think that being black makes you seem "not quite ready."
My flow of thought is this: There are numerous examples that contradict this claim, and so far the only example you've given that is consistent with it is Obama - in whose case there are also far simpler explanations for why he is perceived as not quite ready. Hence, it's not a very good explanation for why Obama seems not quite ready.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
See, I think Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Colin Powell look their age for black men, but that white guys 53, 63, and 70 don't look nearly as healthy. I, personally, think that thirty and forty five are particularly telling ages, between white men, black men, and asian men. Is this thread really going to be about how white men age hard, 'cause they do, and that should be neither surprising or terribly insightful.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I think the problem is that you are trying to make the argument that all but the visual representation of Obama is being ignored in the decision to "season" him before having him run for president.
There just doesn't seem to be enough evidence to support the claim.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Nope, I am saying that those people who understand Obama as needing seasoning didn't understand Clinton, Bush, or Edwards as needing seasoning. Clinton's, Bush's, and Edwards faults or virtues were considered fully developed faults or virtues. Even Dan Quayle, as a young VP, wasn't considered a president who needed seasoning. Dan Quayle was Dan Quayle, young, cute, and fully developed as Dan Quayle. These guys were all considered developed, for better or ill, at the time they were on the public stage. Nobody said, "Quayle, I agree with him. He has everything that a president should have. He just needs a little more time." EIther Quayle was a dope or Quayle was acceptable, but he wasn't considered in under-ripe.
Obama's unique position is that even in 2004, four years away from 2008, when he had said and did everything right and looked forward to saying and doing everything right for another four years, people were saying that he is going to need an addition four years. That's what perplexes and disturbs me. Again, with all of the other candidates who had a hard time being taken seriously because they were young or young looking, they were still not expected to somehow ripen later. Clinton, Quayle, and Edwards were supposed to age, not mature. I'm done belaboring this point. If I can't make it any clearer than I've made it, then I'm not up to making this argument.
posted
Hmm... Does it strengthen Irami's argument that I, as a foreigner who have only heard about Obama here at Hatrack and Ornery (and read a couple of his speeches linked from here), and never having seen a picture of him, would have guessed him to be in the lower thirties before Irami mentioned his true age?
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
No, it would be indicative of you misinterpreting "needs seasoning" to be about age rather than national-level prominence.
The ridiculous thing about all this is that the argument that Edwards was a terrible choice (in terms of electibility) because of his inexperience was made, and all over the place, and now Irami is pretending it was not.
Also, I don't think anybody is saying "I won't vote for Obama until he has more experience." What they're saying is "I don't think Obama can win right now, because he has not been around long enough for the more apathetic/uneducated voters to know his name." If you believe that he won't win--and that he can win given four (or eight) more years of exposure--then it seems prudent to wait a bit.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I only wanted to comment on age markers of different races.
Different peoples age differently and in different ways, with specific racial features. Oh, sure, they have the same overall changes- grey hair, shrinkage, wrinkles, etc. And to be sure, hard living (or even moderately hard living) can add years regardless of race. But the fact is that people of different races age differently identifiable ways, especially during that 30-60 stage.
Of course all this is purely anecdotal, but I'd be pretty confident that it represents the general facts. I have friends who are black and in their 40's. But you'd have to ask them their age to actually know it. And these are friends from places as varied as Alabama, California, and Maryland. Heck, my grandmother, who is black (from Eritrea, next to Ethiopia) is only now starting to look her age- mid 70's. For as long as I've known her, she looked nebulously in her 50's. Of course, she's relatively healthy- her diet and lifestyle as a Muslim was no doubt an asset. Whereas my paternal grandparents (white) definitely looked their age (mainly due to smoking.)
I'm sure similar observations could be made about Asian people, just off the top of my head, though I can't comment personally on it. And I'd be more definite about the Navajo people, at least, and Native Americans in general.
So to Irami, of course Obama looks his age. You are used to seeing age markers on black people. So you have to believe that that statement is a lie and hides some latent racism. Whereas, many white people have a harder time seeing age markers on other races and may honestly believe he is younger than he is.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I've had the privlege of voting for Mr. Obama twice, I worked for his campaign, heck, I'm even on his Christmas card list. Believe me when I say that I understand your impatience. I can't wait to vote for him for president. But I think your reasoning here is wrong.
John Edwards inexperience was an issue in the last election - remember the debate with Cheney? Remember the comparisons to a bulldog (rottweiler?) and a collie pup. To some that made Edwards more likeable, to others it made him seem like an inexperienced lightweight. This is perhaps forgivable in a VP candidate. For a presidential candidate in a fearful, security-hungry country - not a chance.
Mr. Obama himself has said many time that that he has a lot to learn about Washington. He himself has pointed to his lack of experience. Nobody knew who he was two years ago. More importantly he has promised over and over again to serve a full term as senator, both during the campaign and since. Most recently on "Meet the Press" a couple of weeks ago. Much as want to see him as President, I don't want him to break his word.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Huh? I have never run into this. Maybe, maybe in the South.
You won't run into it in the South either. Not the south I've lived in my entire life, at least.
quote:Much as want to see him as President, I don't want him to break his word.
Yeah, cause breaking his word would be so unusual in a politician. (that by the way is a snarky comment directed at all politicians, not Obama in particular)
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Yeah, I meant to comment on that. I have lived in Florida, South Carolina, and Tennessee, and I have not seen that either. I've seen the occasional example of racism, but not this pervasive stuff Blayne claims. (And although he backed off on it slightly, he didn't state it as a question, or as if he were not certain. He took it as a given that this is how things are in the US, and contrasted it with Canada.)
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:I'm pretty sure its int he deep south myself I read it in a book. But its possible it could've planted itself subconsiously on the american consiousnes.
What book did you read this in? Like Belle, I am a Southerner and I've never heard any black people addressed as "Uncle" or "Son" by anyone other than their nephews or fathers. I would certainly never think to address a black person I haven't been introduced to as anything other than "Sir" or "Ma'am."
I don't think you should make sweeping generalizations about a place you have never visited. Particularly when those generalizations are based on something you read in some book. I also don't think you can speak for every Canadian - I doubt racism is unknown there.
This is a hot button for me. I'm so very tired of people assuming I'm a racist redneck just because I'm from the South. To disavow you of some of your other notions - I'm Jewish (yes, there are Jews in the South and have been since before the Revolutionary War), my next-door neighbors are black, my pediatrician is a black Republican, two of my neonatologists are Indian (and no, I don't mean Native American - they're from India), and I have Japanese and Indian cousins. Please take some time to question the validity of your views of the South.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Much as want to see him as President, I don't want him to break his word.
Yeah, cause breaking his word would be so unusual in a politician. (that by the way is a snarky comment directed at all politicians, not Obama in particular) [/QB]
And I'm hoping he's as different as he seems.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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