posted
DarkKnight, I don't get what you're trying to do. You haven't provided a better solution, you've just said that all these teachers (who is more qualified than them?) are wrong. But you don't say how they're wrong, you just keep asking questions. I don't get it.
The whole problem, to use a sports analogy, is that students don't learn fundamentals. It'd be like having a basketball tryout and saying "I will pick every kid that can make 10 free-throws in a row. I don't care how he does it, I just want 10 in a row." So the kids practice at home all summer to just make 10 in a row -- whether it's one-armed shots, granny throws, over-the-heads, what have you -- and then come tryouts, yay! They make 10 in a row. Only, now that the season starts the team can't win a single game. They don't know how to run/pass/play defense....but man they can make free-throws like no other!
At least I hope that applies. In my feeble mind it makes sense.
Posts: 193 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: Of course, this leads to students having far lower ability when it comes to basic computation - as they have not ever been required to learn/memorize things like their times tables, because they always had access to a calculator to do their math for them.
So you cannot teach them how to use a calculator AND teach them to learn/memorize things like their times tables? A teacher can't say this is how you do basic computations, and this is how you use a calculator? That to me is still on the teachers end because students should know how to do both.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I have been saying what the better solution is all along. I will demonstrate with your sports analogy.
quote: It'd be like having a basketball tryout and saying "I will pick every kid that can make 10 free-throws in a row. I don't care how he does it, I just want 10 in a row."
That is the very problem right there. You hit the nail right on the head. To pinpoint it more, here is the exact phrase that shows the problem
quote: I don't care how he does it, I just want 10 in a row
That is not a fault of anyone but the coach who comes right out says I don't care how he does it, I just want this. The standards that the coach set in your case are too low and are not comprehensive enough. In order for the team to be more successful, the coach must change the standards in order to pass the test which in this case I am assuming is the subsequent basketball games. The coah's attitude could probably use a rework as well in your specific example.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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DarkKnight, you have missed the point entirely. The analogy posted was related to what the standards and government have issued. These are not the teachers using substandard methods, but those who dictate the information those who you are repeatedly trying to ignore.
The teachers are now being forced to teach to the test instead of teaching the students to be successful in life. They are expecting an illogical expectation. You continue to ignore the fact that 100% of anything is absurd. Even the human body isn't 100% efficient. If it was, we'd all be dead. 100% of anything is a theory, and a bad one at that.
posted
No I have not. You are blaming the standards, the test, and NCLB. Taking them one at a time and for one state Texas, the standards were developed and approved by Texas Education Agency which is comprised of educators and teaching professionals from Texas. They are the ones who set the standards for Texas. Not Bush. Not NCLB. Texas educators made them and approved them. That means that if the standards are too hard then the highly educated educators do not know what they are doing. The change that should occur is in TEA, not in the White house. The test is made off of the standards and is approved by TEA, not NCLB or Bush. Texas educators make the test so if the test is wrong or biased or too hard, then change TEA. NCLB did not make TEA, NCLB did not write the tests. TEA is responsible for that. Change TEA or more accurately get TEA to change the standards and improve the tests. I'm not sure if you are in Texas, but that is the state that was mentioned.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
The problem DarkKnight, is that there is no way to test at a state or national level some of the things that students should be learning in school. Right now, because of NCLB, all of the emphasis is on the test. This means, if teachers want to keep their jobs, if schools want to keep their funding, they have to spend all of their time teaching the things that will be tested. This means that there is no time for those other things, which cannot be tested, but are equally important.
So part of the problem is with the test, yes, but another part of the problem is with NCLB itself, which uses the test as its only measure of school performance.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I am not blaming the standards nor the test. But I am blaming NCLB for setting ideals that are unreasonable and illogical. As I said, to assume that 100% of students no matter of their ability, home status, mental state, can pass a standardized test is foolish. Few schools are capable of doing that without the added pressure of having funds cut, people fired, and schools closed due to NCLB. I do blame NCLB for setting an illogical basis.
Your idea that making the test easier if its 'too hard' will just drive the organization to make the test based on a lower educational level, rather than solve any problem. The test is supposed to be an evaluation for use by the states to help improve education. It should not be the basis by which a school remains open or is taken over by the state.
No, I am not in Texas. I am in New Jersey where the tests are more difficult than those in the majority of the other states. NCLB has already had drastic results on school districts because they have attempted to teach towards the test instead of teaching for understanding. My own home town has seen a 15% drop in test scores since NCLB took effect. From 98% proficiency. That is a serious dive. NCLB has also diverted money in economically disadvantaged areas away from education because it forces the school to pay for additional programs that they normally would have gotten additional funding from the state for.
As well, the tests that are made in NJ are NOT made by educators, but rather by companies that sell their tests to the state. Those who make the decisions have little knowledge of what they are doing and few have ever taught. Already we've seen many schools lose administrators and faculty due to state observations, in NJ its call the CAPA organization.
Their 'suggestions' on inproving the school involved:
1) Formation of a school mission statement. 2) More programs afterschool for students. (Something that draws from the resources of the schools themselves, this is NOT additional funding) 3) More posters on the walls.
These were the three 'primary' concerns of CAPA when they last visited my school district.
I am a teacher in a 'suburban' school where the average income is about 1/3 of what the state average is. My students have a hard enough time living their lives that school comes secondary for many of them. We have fallen short of our goal, despite considerable increases because you only need to fail one area out of 40 to be labeled a failing district.
Posts: 119 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Blacwolve, you realize the test you are referring to is the state's test? There is no NCLB test, the test is the one developed by the educator's in each specific state. The states have determined what they deem necessary to pass, NCLB only says that states will work to have their students pass the test that their state says they should be able to pass. I do think NCLB also had states pick other areas to be monitored, like attendance and such.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: As well, the tests that are made in NJ are NOT made by educators, but rather by companies that sell their tests to the state. Those who make the decisions have little knowledge of what they are doing and few have ever taught. Already we've seen many schools lose administrators and faculty due to state observations, in NJ its call the CAPA organization.
Not according to NJ's education website, they specificially mention the exact opposite, that they do not use commercial companies NJ website
quote: Some districts ask why their commercial testing programs are not as good as the state assessments. For the purpose of determining progress of students on achieving New Jersey’s standards, it is essential to have tests that are directly aligned with our own state standards. Commercial tests are not aligned with our standards nor are national assessments. There is a federal requirement to test students under the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB) in language arts and math in grades 3-8. The department is preparing to develop the state tests for grades 5, 6, and 7 to satisfy compliance with NCLB.
posted
What people say, and what people do are two seperate things. Whether or not the state observes it, the tests are commercial tests that the state purchases to use.
Posts: 119 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I have so much I want to say but I have to get ready for class. DarkKnight let me just say that you are STILL way off. TEA is compromised of teachers but it is not representative of our profession as a whole. These are usually curriculum coordinators who, for whatever reason, are no longer in the classroom everyday and they are out of touch. But whatever we say, it will not persuade you that teachers are not the problem.
The coach is TOLD he has to take only the free throwers, not the well rounded kids who can dribble and pass and do lay-ups.
I wonder, did you just have a string of bad teachers in your life? Do you have kids in public education and you are not happy with their teachers? What is the deal here? I don't mind debating you on this since I really do think I know what I am talking about (and it seems the other teachers here do too) but I think you might be trolling just a little.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:The whole problem, to use a sports analogy, is that students don't learn fundamentals. It'd be like having a basketball tryout and saying "I will pick every kid that can make 10 free-throws in a row. I don't care how he does it, I just want 10 in a row." So the kids practice at home all summer to just make 10 in a row -- whether it's one-armed shots, granny throws, over-the-heads, what have you -- and then come tryouts, yay! They make 10 in a row. Only, now that the season starts the team can't win a single game. They don't know how to run/pass/play defense....but man they can make free-throws like no other!
quote:Originally posted by Johivin: Their 'suggestions' on inproving the school involved: [...] 3) More posters on the walls.
*snort* If only a "math is cool" poster that features a scarf-wearing penguin ice skating near some numbers and operation signs was able to improve education.
I think my problem with the "No Child" law is that it puts all of the onus onto the teachers. So what if the parent doesn't read to the kid or want to buy those multiplication table flashcards? All the teacher has to do is teach and the kids learn, right? It must be her faulth if the kid gets a bad score on the standardized test. It certainly isn't the fact that daddy left town and mommy has a drug problem. Let's fire her and take money from the school district because she's a bad teacher.
The problem with 100% (or even 90% in some areas of the country) is that many children with problems at home, language barriers, or disinterested parents will fail the tests no matter how well the teacher teaches. I'm not sure how we implement standards, but so far the No Child Left Behind doesn't seem to be helping.
Posts: 82 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: TEA is compromised of teachers but it is not representative of our profession as a whole. These are usually curriculum coordinators who, for whatever reason, are no longer in the classroom everyday and they are out of touch. But whatever we say, it will not persuade you that teachers are not the problem.
Teachers teach the standards that are set forth by TEA. I have NOT said teachers are the problem. I have said that in some of the examples that we are discussing the standards are the problem and you are backing up my arguement completely. The standards are being made by people who are out of touch, so that is where the problem would lie. NOT the classroom teacher, but with the standard. The classroom teacher should be telling TEA to change the standards as the standards are "out of touch".
quote: The coach is TOLD he has to take only the free throwers, not the well rounded kids who can dribble and pass and do lay-ups.
Again, this is the same issue as above. The coach (classroom teacher) is TOLD he has to take only the free throwers (TEA standards). The coach's attitude of "I don't care" should be addressed, but the main fault would be in the 'only free throwers' requirement. So the coach is not at fault for the standard, but he is in the best position to tell the approriate people (TEA) that the 'only free throw' approach is 'out of touch'.
quote: I wonder, did you just have a string of bad teachers in your life? Do you have kids in public education and you are not happy with their teachers? What is the deal here? I don't mind debating you on this since I really do think I know what I am talking about (and it seems the other teachers here do too) but I think you might be trolling just a little.
I'm glad you asked, and the answer is None of the above. I live in a poor, urban school district and I have worked for the same poor urban school district for about 10 years now. We used to let schools and teachers decide what to teach, how to teach, when to teach. Every school was able to decide what they would teach and when. School based management would be the answer to everything because educators at the schools had total control. So what happened? We ended up the 3rd from the bottom in our state. Conditions were absymal. Teachers blamed parents, Principals blamed lack of money, there was an underlying feeling of 'they are poor, they are minorities, they can't learn'. Many students might be in 4 or 5 different elementary schools in the same year because they were homeless and had to move or relocate every few weeks or months. We were going to be taken over by the state because things were so bad and getting much worse. We kept spending millions and millions of dollars and things kept getting worse. Finally the state said you have to improve or else we will take you over. Hope was lost because nothing would change the fact that we are a poor urban predominately minority school district. We did what we were forced to do....We hired some outside people to come and help us and they made some changes. First, We developed our standards much more thoroughly. They sat with the teachers to take the state standards and break them down into every grade level, every subject, all the way down to the point where you would have each days lesson plan charted out. We aligned all of schools calendars together so every grade was teaching the same things at the same time (more or less, there may be a few days difference). Everyone followed the standards that our school district set forth. The results? Test scores jumped in every school except one. Schools that had 15% proficient in reading were now around 50%. The single school that did not improve was a hold out because they insisted that their idea of a year round school was the best way to teach. They made no improvement. They taught how they wanted, what they wanted, and their students did not improve. Now they are aligned with all the other schools and have seen the same improvements. We changed our results for the positive because old habits were let go, and new habits were made based on best practices and input from all levels, especially the classroom teacher. However, if it were not for federal mandates, we would not have changed. I believe in the concept of NCLB. Yes 100% will never be reached, but NCLB can improve education far more than anything else has. NCLB is showing us where the problems are if we choose to look at them and not knee jerk react to it. I hope this helps you see my position a little better? I'm not a troll. I believe that public education can be vastly improved by changing the the things that need to be changed, and holding schools (to be clear, I mean more of the Admin types) accountable. To be clear about the teachers teaching what they wanted how they wanted statements. I am NOT saying that those teachers were doing anything wrong. Those same teachers are the teachers that helped define the standards and developed the best practices on how to teach each standard most effectively. They are the ones who came up with lesson plans on how to most effectively teach each tiny part of each standard. This plan was a success because of a different vision to address the problems from the outside people, and the hard work of the teachers. A huge benefit to teachers is now if a student is bouncing schools, that student is not left behind, the student is being taught the same things in every school. Yikes, this is one big post....
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stasia: *snort* If only a "math is cool" poster that features a scarf-wearing penguin ice skating near some numbers and operation signs was able to improve education.
Ice-skating penguins in scarves taught me calculus. Don't discriminate against them because of their species. You're clearly a narrow-minded specist.
quote:Originally posted by Stasia: *snort* If only a "math is cool" poster that features a scarf-wearing penguin ice skating near some numbers and operation signs was able to improve education.
Ice-skating penguins in scarves taught me calculus. Don't discriminate against them because of their species. You're clearly a narrow-minded specist.
-pH
I'm such a bad person. Posts: 82 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:I'm glad you asked, and the answer is None of the above. I live in a poor, urban school district and I have worked for the same poor urban school district for about 10 years now. We used to let schools and teachers decide what to teach, how to teach, when to teach. Every school was able to decide what they would teach and when. School based management would be the answer to everything because educators at the schools had total control. So what happened? We ended up the 3rd from the bottom in our state. Conditions were absymal. Teachers blamed parents, Principals blamed lack of money, there was an underlying feeling of 'they are poor, they are minorities, they can't learn'. Many students might be in 4 or 5 different elementary schools in the same year because they were homeless and had to move or relocate every few weeks or months. We were going to be taken over by the state because things were so bad and getting much worse. We kept spending millions and millions of dollars and things kept getting worse. Finally the state said you have to improve or else we will take you over. Hope was lost because nothing would change the fact that we are a poor urban predominately minority school district. We did what we were forced to do....We hired some outside people to come and help us and they made some changes. First, We developed our standards much more thoroughly. They sat with the teachers to take the state standards and break them down into every grade level, every subject, all the way down to the point where you would have each days lesson plan charted out. We aligned all of schools calendars together so every grade was teaching the same things at the same time (more or less, there may be a few days difference). Everyone followed the standards that our school district set forth. The results? Test scores jumped in every school except one. Schools that had 15% proficient in reading were now around 50%. The single school that did not improve was a hold out because they insisted that their idea of a year round school was the best way to teach. They made no improvement. They taught how they wanted, what they wanted, and their students did not improve. Now they are aligned with all the other schools and have seen the same improvements. We changed our results for the positive because old habits were let go, and new habits were made based on best practices and input from all levels, especially the classroom teacher. However, if it were not for federal mandates, we would not have changed. I believe in the concept of NCLB. Yes 100% will never be reached, but NCLB can improve education far more than anything else has. NCLB is showing us where the problems are if we choose to look at them and not knee jerk react to it.
Thank you for this story.
I think that sometimes it is better to give up local control when the local control clearly is not working.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
DarkKnight, I appreciate your post as well. I can see your point that your district needed a huge overhaul and NCLB ideas are working for you. I think a set of standards and ways of monitoring them are good things. I just think that NCLB is not doing that effectively. You think it is effective because of how your district is working right now and I don't knock you for it. But in my school, in my district, it's not working for many reasons and that is the case across the nation.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:The standards are being made by people who are out of touch, so that is where the problem would lie. NOT the classroom teacher, but with the standard. The classroom teacher should be telling TEA to change the standards as the standards are "out of touch".
Is it even possible to come up with a set of standards that should be taught? I think this may be the greater problem: Education should not be viewed as a factory system that simply outputs a set of graduates who conform to certain standards. For students, this reduces learning to a means rather than an end, and makes it into something boring rather than something they would value for its own sake.
The goal of the education should not be to produce adults that pass a bunch of standards. The goal should be to produce adults capable of thinking and learning on a high level. There is no metric for this, so it is difficult to standardize. Nevertheless, I think it is more important than ensuring that our students know facts X, Y, and Z.
If the question is "What should our standards be?" then I'd ask "Can we even set standards to measure the things we really care most about?"
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Lots of things to respond to, but I'll go with this first.
quote:So you cannot teach them how to use a calculator AND teach them to learn/memorize things like their times tables? A teacher can't say this is how you do basic computations, and this is how you use a calculator? That to me is still on the teachers end because students should know how to do both.
Sure, you can teach them both. But if you are only allowed to *assess* them when they have a calculator, just how much import do students place on arithmetic? There are very few students who will learn for learning's sake all the way through their schooling. I can teach students several mental math strategies (which equates to classroom time), but if there is never any assessment to measure this empirically (enter the call of "is this going to be on the test?") then a great many students simply won't retain it.
"Use it or lose it" applies here. If you are never called upon to use a muscle, it will atrophy. If you always have a crutch (in this case, a calculator) you will have a harder time when you need to walk on your own.
If your experience has been different, that you've managed to teach students topics without ever having them perform on an assessment, and achieve high retention, I'd love to know your secret.
quote:The results? Test scores jumped in every school except one. Schools that had 15% proficient in reading were now around 50%.
Ah, this is the problem. NCLB works great for schools that were at 15% - there's so much room to improve! You can get your Adequate Yearly Progress from here to eternity if you're starting with 15%. And, not to diminish your achievements, but improving 35% from 15% to 50% is not nearly as difficult as improving 35% from 60% to 95%.
Students trying to pull their grade up from a 55% to a 60% really only need one really good A on a test, maybe master one more concept than they had been to get over the hump. Students trying to pull their grade from 85% to 90% face an almost vertical uphill battle - which is often mathematically impossible. They need to achieve near perfection in order to improve their score at all.
This is why NCLB is a problem.
You know where my last school was failing? The area which has put them on their third year of warning? Special education. The students in the building with learning disabilities were not performing highly enough on the standardized tests.
Because students who have been diagnosed with specific learning problems, often having to do with the printed word or long periods of testing, were not scoring proficiently at a high enough rate, the school was in serious trouble.
Because SpEd scores are not high enough, the school started dragging their feet when asked to test poorly performing students for learning problems. Why add more low performing students if your scores are already too low?
Of course, this doesn't help the students, but it helps the school satisfy the NCLB goals for AYP.
Mandating students to hurdle a certain bar only causes the bar to be lowered so that all students can make it across. How is that helping?
quote:Originally posted by DarkKnight: Blacwolve, you realize the test you are referring to is the state's test? There is no NCLB test, the test is the one developed by the educator's in each specific state. The states have determined what they deem necessary to pass, NCLB only says that states will work to have their students pass the test that their state says they should be able to pass. I do think NCLB also had states pick other areas to be monitored, like attendance and such.
How does this refute my statement? I said that the problem is that some things just can't be tested by a standardized test. It makes no difference who writes the test.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I think it is now clear to near everyone the reasoning that you specifically have for supporting NCLB. Your specific district was clearly in need of an overhaul. But what do you say to those districts that have 95% proficiency rates that, come 2014 will become a district in need of improvment? How can you expect 100% of the students? When it comes closer to the year, perhaps you'll see as many of us see, that unless it is eliminated or at least revised, that many more districts will be taken over.
Another issue is that there is no standard national test. So what right do I have to assume that all studnets in Texas could pass a New Jersey state test, being as New Jersey has one of the hardest state tests in the nation, why shouldn't New Jersey just 'dumb' down their tests so that they can meet their AVP?
Or better yet, as I've seen. Seeing as if their are under 40 students in the catagory those scores are ignored, why not list students as things that they aren't. We'll have 39 other, 39 Native American, and just make it so that their scores are ignored.
The problem with NCLB is that it is an unreasonable pursuit. Leave the problem to the states. Improve those that are in serious need, not force unreasonable ideals on every school.
On a last note, you mention that everyone blames everyone else, and essentially that the parents bare no responsibility. At least, that's the feeling I've gotten from you. How can you expect one to teach students who have no homelife? Students who are up until 3-5 o'clock in the morning because nobody tells that to go to bed. Students whose parents have told them that the teachers are the enemy and they don't have to listen to them. Students who are so INCREDIBLY babied or neglected by their parents that either they don't care because nobody cares about them or they have been taught that they can do no wrong.
I have seen eighth grade students' parents who have told me that their child is "uncontrollable and so I just let him/her do what they want" or that the student "doesn't like <fill in subject> and I was never good in <subject> so that's the problem they are having" or even worse....
"...................................." The lack of communication that occurs between teacher and parent because the parent refuses to be involved. I have had to call DYFUS on some parents on the basis of negligence because they refused to deal with their child's school behavior.
A major social issue we have in this age is that parenting has gone out the window. Their are few parents left who actually qualify as parents. When parents tell me its "your problem. I don't want to be bothered while I'm at my job." It is cause for serious concern.
B.T.W., what do you teach DarkKnight?
Posts: 119 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
No Child Left Behind often leaves the gifted behind. My child's school sends its teachers to learn how to better prepare for ISTEP, but won't allow them to go to any other conferences due to funding. When the test is the focus, smart kids learn that what they can really do doesn't matter. That learning is what you do when you're at home playing on the internet. Most schools are set up to teach you how to be a good employee who does what you're told to do competently. Who wants a thinker, an artist, a potential rebel? Keeping schools and children in their places ensures that the Powers that Be can stay happily in control of what goes on in the world. Heaven forbid that children focus on something other than what the president and Congress think is best for them!
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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I haven't read all the replies, and I mean to, but I want to post this:
I am in Texas, I teach high school history. I have no problem teaching to the state standardized test. I've read over the TEKES (state standards) and they're dead on. Kids should know all the things that TEA had decided they need to learn.
My problem is there are too many students who don't care and who want to be "left behind." At the age of 15 or 16 or older if they want to be left behind, they need to be left behind until they learn they want to follow the rules. The alternative should be a community work program unless they get a job on their own. If that is the case, some may realize that school is a better option and want to come back. To which the schools' arms should be wide open.
The kids who want to be left behind turn out to be a disturbance and lead other students, who would normally be okay, away. Then, to top things off, we as teachers are expected to teach morals (but not any based on religious beliefs), sex ed. (though this is TRULY a parents' job), and the schools are expected to provide 2 meals for students who are financially challenged. We're expected to do all this with little administrative support and we aren't allowed to discipline (and the few times that things were serious, it's been overturned because the parent insisted that their child couldn't have done such a thing.)
I end up watering down my cirriculum for those students who need to pass but don't care enough to pick up a pencil to write their name on a piece of paper.
President Bush was extremely optimistic with this legislation and he didn't take into account the agency or will of the students he was trying to help. The public school system is basically a socialist system operating "for the welfare of all." It's a great theory, but it just doesn't work. If we would concentrate on those who want to learn (or those who are compelled by their parents to learn) and let the others tough it out in the occupations that will take them, maybe they would learn an appreciation for scholastic work.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:If we would concentrate on those who want to learn (or those who are compelled by their parents to learn) and let the others tough it out in the occupations that will take them, maybe they would learn an appreciation for scholastic work.
In my experience, those "others" are the kids who find illegal and immoral occupations, pick up bad health habits, then top it off with a kid or two by the time they are 18 or 19. If they do learn an appreciation of scholastic work, they have so much baggage and so little support, that it really doesn't matter.
My solution, toughen up the talk with parents. I don't have a perfect solution about how to do this, and surely, it's going to be unpopular with politicians and parents alike, but lets get rid of this idea that parents always know what's best for their child. And if we are serious about not leaving any children behind, I'd like to see more frank public discussions about the burdens of parenthood and how so many parents are failing.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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They're already doing that any way. We've got at least 15 pregnant girls walking around our school. Some think it is the coolest thing.
Make them sweat it out in the real world. Like I said, the alternative would be a mandatory community service job (cleaning up all the crap they've thrown out of their cars on Friday and Saturday night) or proof that they have a job. We already employ social workers at school, employ a vocational coordinator. That way they can get job skills and some experience. With less discipline problems, we wouldn't need as many Assistant Principals.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote: As well, I have contaced my congressional representatives.
My congressman in Ron Paul. I must say that I believe this man is awesome. He is a strict constitutionalist. He even came to speak to my AP US History kids. (It was that presentation that actually won me over.)
I think I'll contact him.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I'm not averse to mandatory community service. I am a little worried about the idea that if you can get a job without school, then you don't need school.
Parents are the last frontier in this war on crime, drugs, and degradation. The problem is that even being a bad parent is so hard that politicians, and even decent people, give bad parents special passes.
He is a strict constitutionalist.
I still don't know what that means. ________
Poor kids and minorities need to morally mature faster than Bush. It took him 28 years, and these kids have 11. It took the Bush daughters 23 or 24, and these kids have 11. A lot of times, sadly enough, it means coping with the understanding that your parents are ignorant or otherwise incompetent. That is not an easy pill to swallow or prescribe. And even once that dose is administered, you have an 11 year-old with a whole lot of needs and impulses and without guidance or resources.
Nobody always knows what is best, not parents, not teachers, not the government, and not yourself, but some people know better than others, and discerning who to listen to when is ticklish business. __________
Jenny, , I'm glad someone is looking out for "gifted" students because I care very little.
If it's not listed in the Constitution, then the Fedral government can't do it.
Ron Paul is a Libertarian that runs on the Republican ticket...and he keeps getting elected. He's got my vote.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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I know, abiding by the strict intentions of the framers, but they neither agreed nor were consistant.
I think it's the Euthyphro where Socrates discusses piety, and the Euthyphro says that piety is doing what pleases the Gods, then Socrates says that you can't do what pleases the Gods because the Gods were plural and warring.
It's the same for the framers.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:No Child Left Behind often leaves the gifted behind.
As the mother of a gifted child, I completely agree. There isn't even a program anymore in our middle school, the teacher left and they replaced her with someone who was only "highly qualified" in K-6. After sixth grade, no more gifted program. They say that instead, they will put the kids on an "advanced" track which means she is taking algebra this year.
It's not enough to just give gifted kids more work or more advanced work. They need to develop creatively, and instead what they learn is "if you do well, we just pile more work on you." It's not even challenging work, it's just a bigger quantity of it. Very frustrating for kids and parents alike.
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Agreed about the gifted kids. But, our district has a gifted program and doesn't do diddly after 5th grade. My step-daughter's "gifted" class got to watch "The Ring" as well as "Orange County" and let's not forget a civil rights movie THREE TIMES because they had time at the end of the week.
I am furious because I get these kids 3 and 4 years later in Pre-AP and AP classes and I have to reteach things they were taught wrong. I'm sorry, the US does not have a democracy like the one they had in ancient Greece. That's what my step-daughter was told and was reprimanded when she stepped up and said we live in a representative Republic. (Imagine that coming from a 6th grader's mouth.) THIS IS THE GIFTED PROGRAM.
Ours is actually funded pretty well, we just have idiots teaching in the program.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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I only have about 3 minutes here, so I wish I could respond more but for a quick posting...
quote:No Child Left Behind often leaves the gifted behind. My child's school sends its teachers to learn how to better prepare for ISTEP, but won't allow them to go to any other conferences due to funding.
quote: As the mother of a gifted child, I completely agree. There isn't even a program anymore in our middle school, the teacher left and they replaced her with someone who was only "highly qualified" in K-6. After sixth grade, no more gifted program. They say that instead, they will put the kids on an "advanced" track which means she is taking algebra this year.
It's not enough to just give gifted kids more work or more advanced work. They need to develop creatively, and instead what they learn is "if you do well, we just pile more work on you." It's not even challenging work, it's just a bigger quantity of it. Very frustrating for kids and parents alike.
I think both of these are similar enough to give the same answer. With limited funds, schools have to make hard choices. Gifted children are already far better off than children who are far behind. With limited funds, it makes sense to help those who need it most. Gifted kids are already ahead of the curve. Extra help, bearing in mind the limited funds, going to people who truly need the extra help learning to read, write and do arithmetic is much more important. And No, I did not say that gifted kids are not important or that there is no benefit in helping gifted kids realize their full potential. There absolutely is, but the problem is two-fold, one is funding, the second is presented by aretee
quote:Ours is actually funded pretty well, we just have idiots teaching in the program
posted
Belle's post brings up an interesting point. I didn't learn algebra until 8th grade; this was when the "advance track" kids took it. Everyone else had to wait until 9th grade. This was the late-80s in a town that was up-and-coming. Now it appears everyone learns it in 8th grade, and some places fast track smart math kids in 7th grade.
This isn't a bad thing, but now I wonder how well would my 8th grade class done on these tests...
And then there are those like my mother who either didn't care or couldn't learn algebra (it took her _3 tries_ to pass the class, and I think she did, but only just barely). My mom, she's smart, but not in math. She graduated back in the "good old days" (the 60s; but her elementary education was in the heralded 50s) when education was presumed to be better, according to all those that say our educational system is slipping.
quote:That's what my step-daughter was told and was reprimanded when she stepped up and said we live in a representative Republic.
It's a representative republic, kind of, but voter initiatives in the last 40 years have had an enormous impact on the political process. These voter initiatives are darn close to direct democracy. And the reason we don't clamp down on the sway of these ballot propositions is because a representative republic is understood as third best, a necessary infelicity, due to the size of our government. The US isn't an Athenian democracy, but it's not for want of trying, and democratic principles still undergird our government.
The distinction between representative republic and democracy made more sense before infomation technology and the proposition system got their legs. California's Prop 13 is an exemplary model of direct democracy on a large scale with pervasive effects.
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Irami, I had this really long response written then realized it was really off topic.
Essentially I agree with what you said. When I teach US History I talk about the shift to more democratic policies, especially during and after the Progressive Era. But, at that level, they are talking about Revolutionary America and this teacher's statement is just wrong. The founders (contentious as they were) were very conscious NOT to create a democracy. They understood the dangers and set in place safeguards...that are increasingly removed.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Completely bypassing most of the thread to respond to one comment by Dan_Raven:
quote:One other fault that insures NCLB is built to fail: My wife works for The Special School District. It is a school full of children with mental and physical problems, some 15 year olds with the learning capacity of 6 year olds, and they are all supposed to take and pass the same exams as normal students. I think it is 90% of all students, despite handicap, must pass these tests or the whole district fails.
This is something that's apparently different with various districts. My younger daughter is also special needs, physical age 9 but cognitive about 4. During our most recent IEP meeting, I was specifically informed that because next year she'll be age-wise considered a third grader and therefore expected to be taking the standardized testing, they are starting now to build a sort of progress book that has to be provided to the State in lieu of the tests. And the kids that go through this alternate program are excluded from the NCLB quotas, as well.
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I just love the fact that severe special ed children are expected to have reading and math goals while trying to learn to tie their shoes...
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quote:I'm not averse to mandatory community service. I am a little worried about the idea that if you can get a job without school, then you don't need school.
That's a bit cruel to people who don't finish school for personal reasons that keep them back until it's just too late to bother, or people who can't finish school because of their financial situation, don't you think?
There are other means, I believe, of earning your way to a professional job besides school. It's a matter of earning it, not just learning it.
[ February 28, 2006, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: cheiros do ender ]
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I just love the fact that severe special ed children are expected to have reading and math goals while trying to learn to tie their shoes...
This is the key issue that is of serious important. That it is expected that students with these issues need to pass the standardized tests. Not all students have the same capacities for learning, and yet we are telling them they need to pass these tests. Even with extended time, it is still on their own merit.
This is similar for ESL students. Even if the student has only been in the country for a matter of months, they are still expected to pass. This is why we need to contact our representatives and tell them to, at the very least, revise NCLB.
Expecting 100% is too much and unreasonable. 80% would be more logical and understandable, but not 100%.
I urge all to please contact your national representatives and tell them that it needs to be changed. Because otherwise, we will see the end of public education.
posted
Let's also not forget what else is missed when the focus lies on standardized testing. I just got a job teaching a band at a middle school in Oregon that used to be among the best middle school bands in the state, even ranking higher than some of the top HIGH school bands at festivals and competitions. Music used to be a high priority for this middle school, but because of the pressures of meeting Annual Yearly Progress, the traditional 7-period schedule has been reformed to something that gives an inordinate amount of time to math and reading, but cuts science, social studies, and all electives down to a pretty ridiculous amount.
Students complain that the 78 daily minutes of reading and math are not used to their fullest ability. SOME teachers complain that they are not as far along in their curriculum as they would be in the old schedule. Meanwhile, test scores fail to improve at an acceptable rate, and we have taken from the kids the kind of classes that make coming to school worthwhile for many of them.
Experience from decades of school reform shows that throwing money at or increasing instruction time related to a subject does NOT increase student performance. The three most important factors in student success (in order) are 1)parental involvement, 2) Socio-economic status, and 3) teacher effectiveness.
The first one is difficult in today's society, since parents regard education as being the job solely of the teachers. Also, more and more families have both parents working, which makes it difficult for the parents to be actively involved in their child's education, let alone their life. The second factor, SES, is highly related to the first, as families with a high SES are more likely to be able to operate from a single income, thereby allowing one parent to work with their children.
The last factor is hard to evaluate. Is a teacher effective because their students pass tests? Because the students "like" their teacher? Because the students all get A grades? No, no and no!
In order for a teacher to be effective, they must a) be familiar with the subject material, b) have a variety of methods of relating this material to the students that appeals to a variety of learning styles, c) have skills that allow the teacher to manage a classes social behavior such that the students are attentive and receptive to the subject material, and d) perform all of this in an environment that the students look forward to coming to, day after day.
And they say teacher's have it easy.
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Perhaps a more accurate thread title would Public Education's Ending. As many have said, all too often parents are not involved in their children's learning.
This is completely backwards!! Parents have the sole responsibility to educate their children. If they choose to do so by sending their children to public schools, that's great, but schools alone will not produce a well-adjusted, educated individual.
Parents must do their duty, leaving much of the academic development to the schools if they choose (aware of the risk they will acquire skills for standardized testing rather than life skills). I believe one of the best things I can do for my children is instill in them a love of learning. I further believe one way to do this is by being willing to answer questions children have.
My wife and I spend a great deal of time answering our inquisitive 3-year-old's neverending questions to her satisfaction. It's wonderful and beautiful to watch her face as she understands something more about her world. We are trying to do the same for our 1-year-old. If we were always too busy to respond, what message would that send about questioning, curiosity, and learning?
Many people take this a step further and homeschool, but not everyone can do this.
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quote:Parents have the sole responsibility to educate their children.
I'm not sure that's true. For better or for worse, every child is unleashed upon the world, so there is a sense in which the world has a stake in that child's education, which is one of the reasons Americans rightfully get a little nervous about the teachings of a madras half way across the planet.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Perhaps a more accurate thread title would Public Education's Ending.
Like I said (much) earlier. NCLB is a not so subtle attack on the institution of Free Public Education, by providing for public support of alternative systems. If it is allowed to continue to the likely conclusion, we will find the Nation in the same fix as the deep south did in the early sixties. Officials, whose childeren were educated in inadequately funded private "freedom academies", were unwilling to provide the needed funding for public schools. Consequently all schools were inadequate and we lost the best contributions of an entire generation.
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quote: Parents have the sole responsibility to educate their children. If they choose to do so by sending their children to public schools, that's great, but schools alone will not produce a well-adjusted, educated individual.
Amen! Amen! Amen!
We in the public school system should augment and broaden what is being done in the home. I don't know much about chemistry, so I will send my child to someone who does. It is my job to ensure that my children do their work and behave while in someone else's classroom. Too many parents now a days think every thing is up to the school. That is what I am fighting against.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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While I'm not an educator, and I don't have a professional opinion, as a student, in terms of NCLB/testing, this is what I have seen:
I hail from a suburb where we always were the top of the state in standardized tests. However, the catch is that we would spend 2 WEEKS TAKING PRACTICE EXAMS. Seriously, all education, except that which is specifically on the tests, was halted in order for us to once again, get great scores. And, of course, because we were a good school district, what we were learning in class was more advanced than the tests and then, come 3 weeks after testing, we would have forgotten the previous lessons and have ot be retaught. I really felt that at some point, the value of education was completely skewed. At what point are these teachers just teaching to an exam rather than teaching well in general? It's a lot easier to teach people how to take tests than to actually teach.
Aretee: I am so jealous that Rep. Paul is your congressman! He's awesome.
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Don't discriminate against them because of their species. You're clearly a narrow-minded specist.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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, I'm glad someone is looking out for "gifted" students because I care very little.![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
