quote:Originally posted by Lord Solar Macharius: Not sure how true this is but I remember once hearing that Hubbard started Scientology as part of a bet between friends to see who could make the most money (religions are tax exempt and Scientology involves a pyramid hierarchy).
Close. I actually heard that it was a bet with John Campbell.
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Gilbert Gottfried on the higher mysteries of Scientology, "And then you write the BIG check and they take you out to the desert and show you the space ship."
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"If there are any scientologists on Hatrack can you please explain your beliefs?"
I'm a Scientologist. I'd be happy to answer any questions. Of course I reserve the right to not answer questions:)
One thing I should clear up at the outset is that Scientology is not a belief-based religion. It is an applied religious philosophy. You learn it's principles and apply then to find out if they work. No faith is required and Ron has at times stated he would prefer parishoners not take what he says at face value.
I mention this as asking me what I believe in as a Scientologist is not going to get much of a reply. I do have beliefs as a Christian but that is a separate religion.
"Silent childbirth! No painkillers allowed!"
This is an area that received very short thrift from the media and internet experts such as bloggers.
There are no policies stating that a mother has to be silent when giving childbirth. Further there are no rules against painkillers.
There are very strong policies which are posted in all churches that one is to seek medical care for illnesses and injuries.
"They don't seem to have a very high regard for the medical community in general, unless the doctor is a Scientologist, too."
I have lot of respect for the medical community. I don't have much respect for comments that start off with "They..."
"I wonder if Scientologist doctors at hospitals consider it wrong to treat their non-Scientologist patients with methods that aren't approved by their religion. Does anybody know?"
See above. Scientology doctors refer patients to other doctors all the time if the problem is not in their area of expertise. I don't really know but I'm assuming that that is just standard practice.
I'm not sure what "methods" are being referred to as not being approved. The only ones that I know of are electric-shock, lobotmies and psychiatric medications such as anti-psychotics or anti-depressants.
There are lot of rather unpleasant comments on this thread that I won't dignify with much of a response but the above points seemed to be asked sincerely.
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"Thank god the IRS lost it's lawsuit that claimed Scientology wasn't a religion, huh?"
I would agree with you if the statement was true. (The IRS didn't lose a lawsuit things were simply sorted out on the basis of actual evidence between the two parties.) I'm much more thankful that my church won that particular fight to prove that we are a religion.
My church was spending millions of dollars on that issue and now that money is being directed to much better uses which has benefited Scientologists and non-Scientologists alike.
I would have been crushed to not be able to go to church in the US if we hadn't been able to clear up the air between the IRS and ourselves. It was closer than I like to think.
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"I don't have much respect for comments that start off with "They...""
What's wrong with using "they" when referring to a group? I mean, Scientologists must have some collective beliefs that makes them Scientologists.
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I don't have a problem with "They..." when discussing the positive elements of a group. I personally find it distasteful when imparting rumour or innuendo like "They're opposed in principle to beginning words with a silent "p". and other remarks of similar ilk.
Of course Scientologists have similar viewpoints on certain things. I just don't see them mentioned on message boards, in the media, blogs, etc.
Example: "They are all brainwashed." I've seen that before.
"They work very hard to improve their literacy and educational level." Never seen that except in a couple papers written by religious scholars.
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I know a little bit about Scientology, and don't like it. That doesn't mean I need to like someones religion to like them.
Welcome, fred.
BTW, if KoM agreed with me about religion, I would run screaming. Don't worry, you'll understand that comment soon enough if you stick around more than a month. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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The way we have reeled from drug disaster to drug disaster in trying to control the mind with the hammer blows of psychotropic drugs make L R Hubbard a bit of a prophet.
Anyone with the least bit of scientific knowledge knows that only in the last few years have we begun to understand the chemistry of the brain yet they have been medicating it for decades. We are not even really ready yet. Psychiatry has been one long experiment on human subjects from its inception, unethical and unscientific by any standard yet it has shaped the politics of the left from the faith that being gay is somehow genetic (but unlike depression untreatable and do not dare try) behavior, to the weird methods of education that nearly ended literacy, to the drugging of a generation of children, the list has yet to stop growing and their is not yet and never has been hard science to justify any of it.
I think the substance of Scientology is frankly science fiction, but it is at least harmless. I like the LDS faith for its wonderful family life, Scientology seems to attract and motivate very creative people.
I do know that the pseudo sciences of Psychiatry and its big sister Sociology have done much harm and continue to do so, by pretending to have answers instead of guesses.
(Remember kids, if a thread gets locked because you engaged a troll in conversation, you are largely to blame.)
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I'm also interested, as Shigosei asked, how you became a Scientologist? I understand that there are things you may not be able to tell us, but it's quite interesting to outsiders.
When I worked in San Francisco, there were frequently groups of Scientologists operating Stress Testing machines and handing out pamphlets to anyone interested. I never picked one up, but I was entertained by the fact that they had tables set up all along several streets every half block or so. Interesting way to attract new members.
quote:I mention this as asking me what I believe in as a Scientologist is not going to get much of a reply. I do have beliefs as a Christian but that is a separate religion.
I know you said this wouldn't get much of a reply, but I'll ask anyway. Do you have trouble meshing your Christian beliefs with your beliefs as a Scientologist?
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quote:I think the substance of Scientology is frankly science fiction, but it is at least harmless.
I don't think it's harmless. Much of the "meat" of Scientology practice and doctrine involves self-deception and indoctrination.
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Well, for one, Scientology actually uses isolation, lights, and lie detector tests on emotionally vulnerable recruits. Even the Mormons, who send groups to visit the other members of the community regularly to make sure everyone's part of the same playing field, don't sit their recruits down and ask them about their childhood memories while hooked up to a polygraph.
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Interesting method of finding truth, bringing shame directly to bear in this manner is as course as clubbing baby seals, still there must be consent in this at some point or it would be illegal?
Many religions consider Catholic Confession to be too humiliating and to give Priest too much power.
The description of the recruits as 'Emotionally Vulnerable' is null, all but defective people are 'Emotionally Vulnerable' which is the same thing as saying emotionally accessible. It is hardly logic that creates a flock of the faithful.
If you want to convince me of harm, then show me individuals that are harmed not people that got there feelings bruised.
quote:I'm also interested, as Shigosei asked, how you became a Scientologist? I understand that there are things you may not be able to tell us, but it's quite interesting to outsiders.
This is one of my favorite questions to answer. I had a very cool sixth grade teacher. He wasn't a Scientologist but was very willing to listen to anything I had to say and encouraged me to really find out things for myself. One of the books he had was Sidarttha by Herman Hesse.
Reading that book blew my mind. The idea that one was a spiritual being as opposed to the idea that one 'had' a soul made total sense to me. And as a spirit one could be free from the body...well, needless to say this wasn't what your typical sixth grader was concerned with.
For me the problem became how do you attain the ability to do this without starving to death as the gurus were doing in the book.
One book led to the next and before I knew it I had gotten my hands on some books by L. Ron Hubbard. Some of the things he had to say were WILD! But he did say something that I thought was very important. He mentioned that one was free to believe what he choose to and nothing in Scientology is true for you unless you have observed it for oneself.
This struck me as a statement full of self-confidence. He was giving me permission to disbelieve anything he wrote or said. And telling me to find out for myself if the things he discovered were in fact true.
That was the beginning. Thirty years later I'm still discovering things.
To answer another question: I had a lot of trouble reconciling my christian beliefs with Scientology at first as I had been taught that I would go to hell for following false religions. Pretty scary when your only twelve.
That isn't a problem now. Scientology makes it easier for me to be a Christian in what I consider to be the true meaning of what Christ taught.
quote:What is personal integrity? Personal integrity is knowing what you know– What you know is what you know– And to have the courage to know and say what you have observed. And that is integrity. And there is no other integrity.
To this short list, I would add "refusing to embezzle, threaten other people with physical harm, etc." It's a shame Hubbard disagreed.
It's worth noting, by the way, that Hubbard here equates "truth" with "observation." That's at the core of the Scientology recruitment approach, which after all attempts to distort your observations and then offer you possible explanations for those observations. But something Hubbard doesn't touch on, and something that's certainly true in my observation, is that observations frequently can't be trusted.
quote:If you want to convince me of harm, then show me individuals that are harmed not people that got there feelings bruised.
Even if your only definition is physical or financial harm, Scientology's been at the root of more than its share of that, too. Do a quick Google and you'll see what I mean. There was a period in the 60's and 70's, especially, when the "church" appeared to be mainly run by thugs.
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Strange, I don't remember reading in Scientology doctrine that embezzling was okay.
And I would only threaten someone with physical harm if I or my loved ones were in danger of being hurt. In which case all bets would be off. I don't think my perspective is unique in this regard though.
Of course you are certainly free to view these matters as you wish.
quote:I don't remember reading in Scientology doctrine that embezzling was okay.
While it's not in the manual, you'll find frequent mention of it in Hubbard's personal letters.
In fact, an investigation into the storied life of the scumbag that was L. Ron Hubbard is probably a worthwhile expedition for anyone who'd consider Scientology.
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quote:Thank god the IRS lost it's lawsuit that claimed Scientology wasn't a religion, huh?
There hasn't been such a lawsuit yet. The Church of Scientology bullied the IRS into creating an agreement regarding tax exemption for Scientologists. This agreement violates the Establishment clause by giving preference to one religion over all others, so it will be history if it is ever challenged in court.
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lmao @ the idea of anyone bullying the IRS. I've heard this before and I sure wish it was true as it would have saved us decades of harrasment if we had this "superpower" to bully the IRS.
I'm curious if there is any other individual or group in America that has this special ability?
The poor IRS having to endure being bullied by the mighty Church of Scientology. lol!
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I have mixed emotions, I guess I just don't know enough about it. I am glad Fred that you have given us some input from your perspective.
Every religion has had reports of those who try to force their beliefs on others, or useng high pressure tactics.
As for the beliefs, even if Xenu is accepted as history by the majority, is there really a difference between that and virgin births and talking flaming bushes?
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quote:I have mixed emotions, I guess I just don't know enough about it. I am glad Fred that you have given us some input from your perspective.
My pleasure. There is certainly a lot of conflicting statements/ideas/opinions on the subject which can make it hard to sort out what it is really all about. I think it takes a wise person to be able to say they just "don't know."
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Fred, I really would look into a third-party book on the life of Hubbard, if you haven't already. There are many aspects of Scientology as a "faith" and the Church as an organization that are deeply troubling. I won't discuss them at any length here, but you should consider investigating them on your own. Many Scientologists, for example, frequently cite Hubbard's past experience, not realizing that most of his official biography is fraudulent.
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quote:Originally posted by fred: Scientology makes it easier for me to be a Christian in what I consider to be the true meaning of what Christ taught.
I'm no Christian, but I don't understand how you can say this. Is it not a central tenet of Scientology that Christianity and all other religions are lies that early thetans were forced to absorb?
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quote: Can someone explain why they seem to hate Psychology? Is it because through Psychology their ideals can be analized as false? What do they have against medications that help people? I can understand their views that some forms of medication can make things bad, but very rarely do they make things worse.
And why do they insist on being paid? Any cristian church I ever attended "asked" for you to make a donation if you could, but they did not require it.
I don't think Scientologists as a whole hate psychologists (or psychiatrists) for that matter. (I really can't speak for all Scientologists on this point.)
We are diametrically opposed however. Psychology and Psychiatry proceed from a fundamental point that there is no spiritual side to man and Scientology starts with the assumption that man is basically a spiritual being. There are many ramifications of either viewpoint which I don't have the space nor disire to get into here.
Medications is a whole subject in and of itself that other authors have tackled far more competently than myself.
Here is a short list of recommended reading on this subject:
Books by Peter Breggin.
Books by Thomas Szasz
Mad in America by Robert Whitaker
Truth about the Drug Companies by Marcia Angell
Trust us, We're Experts by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber.
This is a good start.
It is true that our tithing system is set up differently than say the LDS church.
I donate less to my church than my wife has in the past. (She is LDS.) I wish I could donate far more. It's not really a problem for us and in any case nobody else's business but mine and my family.
Sincerely,
Fred
PS "I should add that I have been upset at specific activities of various Psychologists and Psychiatrists in my area. But I no more dislike them than I would the neighborhood bully that picks on my son."
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Tom - What makes you assume that I haven't done what you suggest? I am aware of most if not all that material. (Well, probably not all.)
My question would be how much of his 45 million words have you studied? There are 3,000 lectures comprising about 35 million words alone. There are another 10 million in print.
There are approx 20 basic books on the subject and several hundred basic lectures. I think it is safe to say until one has studied all of those one won't even have a good idea what Scientology is about.
rivka - I already mentioned one of the central tenets of Scientology above. "What is true for you is what you have observed for yourself." There are no enforced beliefs in Scientology. I certainly don't have that one you mentioned.
quote:Psychology and Psychiatry proceed from a fundamental point that there is no spiritual side to man
That's not true. There are many schools of psychology that are strictly determinisitc and materialistic, but there are plenty of others that are not.
I don't know all of the people in your list, but both Peter Breggin and Thomas Szasz are themselves psychiatrists. I think they both go way too far, but at least historically, there's been plenty of value in what they say.
I'm a psychology student in the humanstic tradition and I, nor many of my teachers and predescessors, don't deny the spiritual side of man.
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quote:My question would be how much of his 45 million words have you studied?
Please don't make me read Battlefield: Earth again. *shudder*
Seriously, I think Hubbard made some decent points over the course of his life. Some of his observations are hilarious; others often seem quite pointed and wise. He was very much a writer of his time. But like you said, the man's output was prodigious, and trying to winnow out the chaff is a lifetime of work. And when you realize how lacking in moral character he actually was, despite what he wrote at great length about the importance of moral character, it calls into question both how seriously he meant what he was writing and how valuable his words were in the first place. If you draw value from them, that's fine. But if you're giving money to the Church of Scientology, you really should make yourself aware of some of the extra-legal activities of its recent past.
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