posted
Not academically, but socially. We have lockers, we all recognize each other, and cliques abound.
There is a couple at the law school who had a baby last year. They have been bringing the baby to school and taking turns going to class and caring for the baby during this school year.
The weekly law school paper has a column where they post anonymous thumbs up/thumbs down entries. Last week it included this: "Thumbs down to the law school baby. It takes a village, not an entire law school!"
A week later they wrote an apology which included this:
quote:Unfortunately, what we at the Law Weekly cannot apologize for is the fact that the opinion which formed the basis of the ANG does exist at this school. Those who hold that opinion spoke up, and, being the forum to air such opinions, we ran it. Certainly our expression of the opinion was inappropriate, but the Law Weekly must remain an available forum for law students to voice their opinions of the School.
Here is the response I'm contemplating:
quote: When I read the “Law School Baby” ANG entry two weeks ago, I was a little taken aback. While the levels of sarcasm, inappropriateness, and rudeness seemed just about right for ANG – biting, cleverly phrased, and just a little mean-spirited – it seemed more personal than any negative ANG entry I’ve read in my three years at this school. But I shrugged and assumed it was a simple humor misfire from a usually witty column.
It was when I read the Law Weekly apology a week later that I became disturbed. Not at the apology or the fairly weak free speech justification, but at the idea that the opinion underlying the ANG entry not only exists at this school but is widespread and discussed enough to have come to ANG's attention in such a way as to requiring "airing."
In all the time I've seen <baby's name> at the school, I've never seen him cause a disturbance. The few times he's cried in my presence, it's been barely audible over the hallway noise. He never obstructed traffic, never took up space that should have been available to someone else, and never interfered with my use of the school facilities in any way. Certainly it's possible that I have been lucky in my <baby's name>-viewing, and that he has cried or interfered at other times. If this is the case, I wonder if anyone thought to bring the inconvenience to Ms. <mother> or Mr. <father>'s attention rather than gossip about them behind their backs. <baby's name>'s parents quick response to the ANG entry suggests that had anyone bothered to speak up, any such problems would have been quickly dealt with.
I hope someone was actually inconvenienced and merely lacked the courage to be direct and open about the situation. The other possibility – that the mere presence of a usually smiling baby, two incredibly loving parents, and the occasional crowd of "lady-friends" somehow offended some people enough to incite gossip and complaints – makes all the comparisons between law school and high school entirely too accurate.
I will miss <baby name>'s presence, not only because he was one of the only sights guaranteed to raise a smile on a hard day but also because his parents' determination and love was an inspiration and a joy.
Am I tilting at windmills here? Or just not making sense?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
You should come to BYU's lawschool. Babies are an everyday occurance. They even have special rooms that they do cc tv to so that if you need to bring you baby to school you can watch the lecture in without disturbing class if the baby cries. I've even had 2 different TAs lead review sessions with their babies napping on their shoulder.
But of course everything here at BYU is a bit strange.
As for being like highschool, we are having our SBA elections and elections for all of the other clubs and it reminds me of high school student body elections.
Dunno...it's just a visceral reaction, but I think it's very strange to take your baby to law school with you. Even a very good, easygoing baby. Just weird.
That said, I think their 'apology' lacked more class than the initial thumbs down comment.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I suppose I should note that approximatly half of my law school class or more is married. And a good portion of those have kids and things sometimes happen that require the parent to bring baby rather than miss class. I'm just lucky that my wife can stay at home and take care of our baby while I'm in school
posted
If that opinion was worth airing, I think your opinion is too. I'm sure you're not the only one that feels that way.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Nah, that "thumbs down" is a giant ogre exemplifying what is all too typical of the profession: misusing words as a weapon to cause real harm to real people in order to assert the "privilege"s of the "manor born".
posted
Absolutely, it is a windmill worth tilting at.
I just don't see the problem with the presence of a baby. When I was doing the paralegal studies program at Fresno City College, a woman in my litigation class was pregnant through part of the first semester, took one week off to have the baby (only because she had the baby the actual day of the week our night class met) and brought the baby to class every week of that semester and the next semester after that. It was never a problem.
The same with a number of babies and even older children who were actually in class with mom or dad on occasion when there was no child care available. Ths happened throughout both my community college and university years. The kids were always well behaved, the parent didn't have to miss class, and as far as I know no one ever complained.
In fact, in the case of the older children, I think it was a good example for them to see mom or dad in class. It reinforced the value of getting a good education.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'm not sure if you're submitting this for publication in the paper or not, but if not, I would endorse that action. Demand it on the basis that "the Law Weekly must remain an available forum for law students to voice their opinions of the School."
What a loser this editor must be...
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Good for you. I too hope it gets published and that the issue gets more press.
Those with their noses out of joint over a baby should be petitioning for on-campus child care instead of anonymously criticising devoted student/parents. Our university has no child care on campus at all, and only after recent student/faculty campaigns (and much protest) have they started to correct the situation. Student and faculty pressure on administration to give people a place to care for their children while they attend class is only about a billion times more useful than public complaining.
Posts: 353 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Now I'm obsessing over the errors with possessives and "as to requiring." *shudder*
Surely they'll let me proofread it if they publish it.
I do worry about embarassing the couple more. They've put the baby in day care now.
quote:Are there not some health issues presented by exposing those young people so so many Lawyers?
Nah, there are shots for that, and we're just lawyer larvae.
quote:Our university has no child care on campus at all, and only after recent student/faculty campaigns (and much protest) have they started to correct the situation. Student and faculty pressure on administration to give people a place to care for their children while they attend class is only about a billion times more useful than public complaining.
Amen, Dog.
I don't think it would be out of bounds to require the parents to make sure a crying baby doesn't interefere with class, even leaving if necessary.
quote:What a loser this editor must be...
I'm still more put out by the people who bitched about the baby being there. I've suppressed all kinds of catty remarks about having to listen to yet another story about how drunk so-and-so got before he left the party with what's-her-name.
Maybe it's flashback from hearing people tell my parents, in front of me, that they should have only had two kids.
I was the third of six. Nice to hear you shouldn't exist, something I was capable of putting together from their comments by the time I was five (when there were only three of us).
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
It's been over fifteen years since I graduated from Law School, and boy have things changed. Law school is no place for infants or children. Law students with children should leave the kids at home, find daycare, or stay home. It is unprofessional to bring crying children onto a law school campus. No one should have been offended by the thumbs down comment. The offending parents should have responded to the school by apologizing to anyone they may have annoyed by using thier law school as a nursery.
I hate to sound insensistive to the parents, but I feel empathy for the poor fellow who posted the thumbs down and gets demonized for being annoyed with reason and expressing that annoyance. One thing hasn't changed since my law school days, these parents remind me of the self important law student's who thought that they were the only one with the right to express a sensitive opinion without censure.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I like the letter dag. Over the years I've had quite a few students (both in Utah and Montana) bring babies and young children to class. I've never had a problem with them distrupting class. My biggest concern is for the parents and whether than can give adequate attention to class work while they are caring for a child.
If this letter prompted baby's parents to turn to daycare, that's a genuine tragedy. Juggling parenting and school or career is a challenge and parents should be encouraged to find creative ways to spend more time with their children not less. I hope it was simply a case of baby getting older and more active and harder to manage in law classes.
I also found the papers apology to be disturbing. Why couldn't they apologize that the opinion existed in the law school? If a group of students held racist opinions -- would they publish a comment that slandered a specific black student.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I might understand the objection if the baby were being brought to classes (although I did that when two of my children were newborns, while attending UCLA -- and never got any objections). But having a baby present on a law school campus is objectionable?!?
And while I have nothing against day care, and my three kids each attended day care at various times, I think it is heartbreaking that these marvelous parents were forced to do that. (Although Rabbit's suggestion that the baby may simply have been getting too old and active to make their previous arrangement feasible is a good point. I found that once a kid was 3-4 months, they stopped sleeping enough to make bringing 'em to classes realistic.)
quote: It is unprofessional to bring crying children onto a law school campus.
First students, even law students, aren't professional. Law school isn't a professional environment, its an educational environment.
Second, no one complained about the baby crying. A baby crying isn't fundamentally different than any other noise that one might find on campus. Is it unprofessional for students to chat about the latest game or news on a law campus? There are places on any campus, where a baby crying would be disruptive but certainly not everywhere on campus.
Third, What exactly constitutes "professional" behavior. This is certainly a cultural issue and one that is constantly in flux. Ten years ago the dark suit and tie was required for professionals on Wall Street, now its all business casual. There are many times and places where children can be present in the work place without disrupting productivity. In fact, women have historically done all kinds of work from sewing to accounting while caring for their children. There is no reason to assume that children cannot be compatible with professionalism.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
To clarify, they almost never brought the child to class. They arranged their schedule so one was in class while the other was out (a real sacrifice, by the way). The only time the baby was in class was during clerkship interviews, at about 2-3 months of age, and then only a few times. They always had permission and the baby never bothered us once.
quote:Law school is no place for infants or children. Law students with children should leave the kids at home, find daycare, or stay home.
Law students have 15 hours of class a week - at most (they need aout 14 credits a semester on average, and most front-load for an easier third year). There's no reason, between two parents, why they shouldn't be able to care for their child by tag teaming according to class schedule.
Outside class, the law school is just like any other public place - people talking, eating, etc. It's not like they set up camp in the library. Basically the hallways and common areas are like the shopping mall. The baby was never louder than the dozens of inane conversations going on in the halls.
quote:The offending parents should have responded to the school by apologizing to anyone they may have annoyed by using thier law school as a nursery.
Any annoyance caused by the crying, yes, I think an apology would be owed. But we don't know if there was any. Even if there was some, that doesn't cover the whole school. And, again, the noise level wasn't out of line with any other noise that happens constantly.
Or are you talking about annoyance caused by having the hallowed halls of law school invaded by *gasp* children?
quote:I hate to sound insensistive to the parents, but I feel empathy for the poor fellow who posted the thumbs down and gets demonized for being annoyed with reason and expressing that annoyance.
What reason was there for the annoyance?
quote:One thing hasn't changed since my law school days, these parents remind me of the self important law student's who thought that they were the only one with the right to express a sensitive opinion without censure.
The parents haven't done anything except apologize for any inconvenience and place their child in day care.
And no one has questioned anyone's right to express a sensitive opinion. I question the cowardice in expressing it anonymously, the passive-aggressiveness of not saying something if actually inconvenienced, and the ugliness of the underlying opinion that motivated the expression.
quote:If this letter prompted baby's parents to turn to daycare, that's a genuine tragedy.
The column is absolutely what prompted them to turn to day care, no question. This wouldn't have worked for another semester, but he was still at the "corrallable" stage where mobility is basically limited.
quote:Juggling parenting and school or career is a challenge and parents should be encouraged to find creative ways to spend more time with their children not less.
That's what I loved about it - I got to see him learn to crawl, pull himself up. I was one of the few guys he liked - he'd smile at me and keep eye contact through the crowd. He was a part of his parents' lives and was in a pretty stimulating environment - lots of people, hearing adult conversations, with his own toys to play with.
Most of the time he was here, he was in a lap, a snuggly, or a carriage. During class (when the halls were mostly empty) the parent not in class would set out a play area and clean it up before classes ended. If the baby was sleeping or quiet on his own, they'd read. Otherwise they'd tend the baby. Seemed like a creative way to handle a difficult situation.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: Seemed like a creative way to handle a difficult situation.
Very much so.
And the fact that they were discouraged (and in such a nasty way) from doing so not only affects them and this child, but and future parents attending this school who might have considered this.
Dags, if you're comfortable doing so, tell them one of your weird internet friends ( ) who used to bring a baby with her to UCLA sends them a high-five for what they were doing. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Yes, law students aren't professional, and you don't need to wear a suit to go to law school, but law school is still a professional environment. Law school is training for the outside professional world. Parents may get lucky and get hired on by a firm with on-site day care, but in law or any other professioanl environment parents are expected to handle their childcare arrangments independent of the workplace. It is unfortunate that some parents have to be inconvenienced by their childcare options or that they have to make "tough choices" about whether to parent or go to school, but that doesn't mean that every one else should have to share in thier inconvenienced. And a baby crying is fundamentally different from other "campus noices."
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: Law school is training for the outside professional world.
Yep. And snarky anonymous emails to thh local catty gossip column isn't a professional way to handle inconvenience. "Excuse me, your baby's crying is keeping me from reading" is a professional response.
quote:Parents may get lucky and get hired on by a firm with on-site day care, but in law or any other professioanl environment parents are expected to handle their childcare arrangments independent of the workplace.
Which is a lot easier to do when both parents have a law degree and a firm salary.
quote:It is unfortunate that some parents have to be inconvenienced by their childcare options or that they have to make "tough choices" about whether to parent or go to school, but that doesn't mean that every one else should have to share in thier inconvenienced. And a baby crying is fundamentally different from other "campus noices."
And the three people who could hear the baby crying might have had a claim to being inconvenienced the one or two times it happened.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
This is probably the same person who rolls their eyes (and makes comments just loud enough for the parents to hear) when they bring a baby on an airplane.
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I'm still curious to hear what makes a baby's cry "fundamentally different" from other campus noises.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Did these people study so hard in college/high school to get to law school that they have a case of arrested development or something? I can't even believe your l.s. newspaper has a gossip column. My university (and high school) paper didn't even have them.
That poor couple! It's probably hard enough for them to juggle law school (while providing for a child; they probably have to work part-time jobs) as it is.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Rock on Dag! I for one hope you get published. The kids at my school are always a welcome sight, it reminds me that there's some innocence in the world. It's important to me because my University often feels like "the High School after High School."
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I’m not a parent but I’m old enough to be one, so this is how I feel. Warning, it’s a long post:
I think the more we exclude children from the adult working world, and make them somehow taboo ("you have children!? ew!") the more we are going to cause a rupture between the life of the parent and the life of the professional. I think that we should not only allow but also actually encourage this kind of mixing of the two lives.
In the distant past, babies and children played around their parents as they worked, at least in the peasant classes. Children weren't some strange alien non-professional thing, they were a fact of life to be dealt with and involved in the adult world.
Nowadays, we like to keep children in their own little children plastic-toys and nursery reality, and at the same time (perhaps even worse) we have separated the adult world from the idea of children as being acceptable.
Let me clarify: The idea of work and children has almost become incompatible. That’s not to say you can’t have both, but to say that if you have both, you must try your very best to keep the two separate from each other, most especially in the professional careers and when your children are babies (ages 0-5).
This separation of spheres has always existed in the last 200 years, but it used to be that mother did the children and father did the job (don’t jump on me, you know what I mean by ‘job’). Now, with both doing both, the separation tries to divide the mess and jumble of parenthood from the neat orderly professional life within the same person. Now, if you’re asking me as a young person looking at what my life could be, that’s a daunting proposition. I have younger sisters- I know that parenthood isn’t by the clock and doesn’t have perfect professional hair.
I realise that children cannot be everywhere- it is often not suitable or not safe or just not very compatible. Pre-schoolers and babies cannot be with their working parents all the time or even most of the time, at least with the way the working world exists at the moment. But I think we should start thinking about ways to make decent parenthood possible within a professional environment- not ‘as well as’ but ‘within’.
This might mean that the dress code has to slip (as someone mentioned), or that parents can bring their children to school or certain work situations without being seen as unprofessional. It may also mean that we have to work on making the adult world more compatible to children and the children’s world more compatible to adults. Perhaps the adult world is too ‘inappropriate’ for children because it has been constructed that way, or even that we perceive it that way.
I’m not suggesting a) that adults-only things shouldn’t exist or b) that children should be exposed to nasties. I’m saying that I don’t think things need to be as sharply divided as they presently are.
So I strongly applaud this couple. I think it’s high time we started blurring the divide between ‘adult’ and ‘parent’ and started accepting the fact that children do exist, they’re not a plague upon humanity and nor are they tiny angels. It sounds kind of love-love-love-ish, but I’m not throwing flowers around, I’m saying maybe it’s a good thing to bring children back into the fold, as it were- to integrate them into western professional life rather than trying to bring them up as the thing you go home to every night.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: I think the more we exclude children from the adult working world, and make them somehow taboo ("you have children!? ew!") the more we are going to cause a rupture between the life of the parent and the life of the professional. I think that we should not only allow but also actually encourage this kind of mixing of the two lives.
I agree completely Teshi.
One of the things I do love about my work (a very professional, high end litigation law firm) is that lawyers (including the partners) do sometimes bring their children and babies into work.
Not for the whole day, but if their partners are meeting them for lunch or something, the babies will come up. And they will walk around the office and meet people and sometimes even cry. And no-one complains.
It's not unprofessional - it's life. Trying to equate the professional world with one which is solely comprised of adults where children are never seen is narrow-minded, and IMO, ultimately harmful.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Dags, you're absolutely correct in writing and sending that letter in. And I, for one, am not surprised that you're one of the baby's favorites. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I agree with Dag on this one, although not completely with Teshi. There are still some areas I would like to have child-free, and I think that classes ar a good example of this. However, in this specific situation the parents went abuot it the right way, IMO, and rarely if ever brought the kid into the actual class.
I have heard crying babies in class before, and it IS something I shouldn't have to put up with while trying to hear a lecture.
But a BIG thumbs down to your school paper, Dag, in a big way.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: I have heard crying babies in class before, and it IS something I shouldn't have to put up with while trying to hear a lecture.
Which is fair enough - just as people shouldn't talk in class or engage in otherwise distracting behaviour [like the couple who snogged their way through my first year physics lectures. Completely inappropriate!]. But how about babies sleeping in class?
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Kwea, I absolutely agree that you should not have to hear crying babies in class. When I had a sleeping kid with me, I always sat immediately adjacent to a door -- and the two or three times a quarter that the baby woke up, I zipped right out that door.
I did the same thing when my allergies were acting up (this was not with child in tow), where uncontrollable coughing was a potential issue.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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As a law student, I'm just going to pop out of my lurkerdom to say - good on you, Dag. I think your response is entirely appropriate.
How sad for your fellow students who can't understand the position of students who are coming from a different position in life! One wonders how much empathy they will have for future clients. But I don't know them, so I won't pass definitive judgment.
Several of my classmates have children. All the students that I know well who are parents have brought their children to visit the law school at least once! One of the children is a wonderful five year old, who I adore.
There is a sort of sanctity to the classroom, but not to the entire building, I think! At least in the common areas of my school, people are always coming and going. Whether students are catching meals together, studying in groups, running a table for a student organizations, or just discussing the news, it's never exactly *quiet* until late in the evening. If you want quiet go to the library, or reserve a study room.
If whoever wrote that letter had a problem with distracting noise, they should have discussed it with the parents, or left it alone. If they had a *big* problem, and the parents were not responsive, they should have asked the school administration to clarify its position on children on campus.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Actually, there are a lot of babies in law school. :;
quote:If they had a *big* problem, and the parents were not responsive, they should have asked the school administration to clarify its position on children on campus.
The Assistant Dean for Student Affairs sent out this email:
quote:Most of you are no doubt aware of the concern and distress created by a recent critical reference in the Law Weekly to a baby visiting its parents in the Law School. First, let me assure you that your family and friends, of whatever age, are welcome to visit you here, as we have no doubt that you and your guests will be-- as you have always been-- considerate of your fellow students and the activities being conducted in the building. Please let me also suggest to you as a general matter that if you have concerns pertaining to a particular individual or otherwise of a personal nature, it would be more appropriate and in keeping with the collegial atmosphere that we value in our community if you would first address these concerns with me or a faculty member in whom you have confidence rather than in a public forum where unnecessary embarrassment to your fellow students can result.
I was disappointed with the word "visit," because it's arguable that this didn't involve "visiting." I'd have liked a clear statement that this kind of child care is acceptable. If they're worried that too many people will do it, then it's an indication that some proper day care facilities are needed in the building.
I wonder if I can change my pledge to only be used for child care facilities - not necessarily day care, but a room where the parents can go, maybe the cctv idea.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: I do worry about embarassing the couple more. They've put the baby in day care now.
Nah. I'm sure that they will be grateful, not embarrassed. I would be. Good for you, Dag. Oh, and I'm astounded that people were rude enough back when you were little to a) tell your parents how many children they should have and b) do it in front of you! (I read of one couple with a large family, who, when confronted about population issues and such, responded "The world needs more of our kind of kids.")
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Dags, what word could they have used instead? They presumably do not want to actively encourage non-students in classes. And they certainly don't wish anyone to set up tents. So that rules out "attend" and "live."
I think that email from the SA Dean is great. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
You may be right - there might not be a better word.
I guess what I really wish the SA Dean had included in the email was a positive statement that the parents did nothing wrong in how they handled childcare at the school.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I love that the e-mail happened, at least. I can't imagine the losers who decided the orginal gossip column item was a good idea.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I like it.
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) who used to bring a baby with her to UCLA sends them a high-five for what they were doing. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
