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Sorry Tatiana, but that still registers rather high on my crazy-o-meter.
I'm not saying there is necessarily a Tatiana system of law there, but you're still promoting a culture of vigilantism, and you don't seem to care about the damage that could do if say, every person in America decided to do the same thing, so long as they were willing to accept the consequences for their actions. There is a general restraint however, and belief in the rule of law in this country. You're suggesting there should be a departure from that restraint and belief whenever you happen to think that you should be in charge of administering justice.
You seem to be at a point now where you're okay with it being vigilante justice, so long as the person doing it is perfectly willing to accept the consequences, and that kind of advocacy is wrong, and dangerous.
If this all came out during the trial, whereas before I would have said to give you the lighter of possible sentences, now I'd recommend to give you the harshest possible sentence, if only to deter others from taking matters into their own hands.
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I don't think Tatiana is advocating seeking justice on her own in ALL cases, which is the way you seem to be interpreting what she's saying.
I think she's saying that IN THE SPECIFIC CASE OF RAPE by a person known to her, she herself would take those actions. Unless I'm mistaken, she hasn't indicated any other possible situation.
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I caught that. And actually I don't recall, other than in her last post (though I may have missed it) her adding that it would be the case if she knew the person. Not that it matters.
Regardless, I still don't agree with it. Vigilante justice, and murderous vengeance is wrong, not matter what your qualifiers are. I'm certain there are cases where that is what I'd like to do as well, but I still wouldn't. Trust in the rule of law is part of what makes us function as a society.
I never really thought she meant for ALL cases, but my problem with it is that she thinks she is perfectly justified and right to do so, but it's because of her own personal criteria. And others, using their own personal criteria could use that as a rationale to do a whole host of evil things, so long as they are willing to accept the punishment for it.
I don't care how far reaching, or how limited she's suggesting it be, the very basis of her position is something I fundamentally disagree with.
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As do I. But I've had this arguement here before, and am too weary to have it again. Suffice it to say I hope greatly that Tatiana never has to make that decision. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Now how would Tatiana feel if Henry Cowel raped her piano? Would she shoot his guitar? Break his fingers? If your going to prescribe an end result for a given scenario, you might as well work out in advance what you plan to do when anything bad happens to you. Only that would be rather morbid.
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quote:The court is welcome to second guess me after he's dead. I will know I did the right thing, so it won't be particularly traumatic for me. What would be wrong is for them to be given stewardship over the justice for the rape, because that justice is mine.
Nope, that's not justice. Impartiality is a necessary component of justice, and that is the element you strive to remove.
I might be persuaded that a vigilence committee holding a private trial could reach a form of justice. Maybe. But never victim-initiated murder.
quote:Dags, you're right that my own limited abilities to discern his mental competence, etc. will be what is used, rather than the court's. I feel he forfeits his right to be judged by anyone but me by raping me. I might extend mercy based on incompetence or some other extenuating circumstances. Or I might not.
This speech, if given in court, would quickly make me forget any possibility of a lighter sentence.
Further, there's lots of people who think a particular crime forfeits the right to impartial justice. Your scenario is simply at the more appealling end of a spectrum that includes some of the worst ugliness in history.
quote:I think she's saying that IN THE SPECIFIC CASE OF RAPE by a person known to her, she herself would take those actions. Unless I'm mistaken, she hasn't indicated any other possible situation.
But she's basing that specificity on the general principle that the victim gets to choose how "justice" is done, based on the victim's own criteria.
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Tatiana, you know I think very highly of you, and your sentiments are understandable, but I have to say that I would classify what you are describing as vengence, not justice. You are making yourself judge, jury, and most importantly, executioner. It appears to be important to you, not only that the person be repaid for their actions, but that you be the one to do the repayment since you were the one primarily offended. It's worth noting that you also seem willing to pay whatever punishment society deems appropriate for your actions.
I certainly can understand the desire, and would be lying to you if I didn't admit to having similar ones, so I am not trying to condemn you. It's not uncommon for victims of rape and other intimidating violence to feel that they have no recourse but superior violence. I am also a firm believer in a person's right to defend themselves. It is my hope that were you ever in this terrible situation, you would see that you do, in fact, have other recourse and that our society would come to your defense and aid if you let them. If we did not... if we were unable to prosecute the rapist for some reason, for example, or if the sentence was a slap on the wrist by a foolish judge... I would be much more sympathetic to the actions you describe.
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The thing is, you can kill somebody and not get caught, which would be ideal for Tatiana.
Personally, I think I'd do my best to seriously injure the person attacking me, which might or might not be impossible depending on the circumstances.
Seek him out afterward and kill him? Probably not. I'd go for maiming, if I thought I could get away with it. Gouge out the eyes, maybe, or break his neck just low enough not to kill him. Let him be at the mercy of some woman just to get his butt wiped for the rest of his life. Give him a chance to consider his life. Might be good for his soul.
This reminds me of discussions on this topic I've had with Slash, who always said, "A man who rapes my wife or sister has simply committed an elaborate form of suicide."
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Vengeance and justice can I believe be the same thing, sometimes. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, at least not in the physical result meted out.
But what Tatiana is describing is obviously, undeniably vengeance first and justice a distance second. Even though the vengeance is merited, it's still vengeance.
I'm not in favor of executing rapists. I waver on the issue of the death penalty sometimes (currently I'm on the 'against' side of things), but execution in response to rape seems ill merited in my opinion because...well, the victim isn't dead. Horribly wronged, violeted, abused, pick your awful adjective and the victim is probably that as well. But not dead. Not beyond any hope of recovery.
Things change, of course, when there is a fear of future or (even worse) repeated rape. Killing in the defense of an innocent is something I have little if any moral problem with.
Of course this reasoning applies to my calm, thoughtful form of reasoning. Things would be quite different if it were a loved one of mine that were raped. I suspect bordering on certainty that much of what I've said would go the way of the dodo. However, as a society I believe we must recognize that as one of the big reasons why vigilante justice is something to be condemned, not endorsed.
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For the majority of this thread I thought that I was against Tatiana's killing the rapist scenario. But Olivet's comment changed my mind. If someone raped my mom or sisters, or dad or brothers for that matter, and I had a way to find them, I would most certainly kill them. And if possible, I would clone them first, then kill them, then clone them, then kill them, then clone them... and so on, as in "A Thousand Deaths" in Flux by OSC.
So I've changed my mind. I don't care what society says, or anything else for that matter. Community bonds are a large part of what makes us human. And the family bond is the strongest there is. If someone rapes a member of my family, and it is in my power to do so, I will exact vengeance.
"There's nothing like revenge for getting back at people." - Carl
"I dunno, vengeance is pretty good." - Lenny
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quote:Vengeance and justice can I believe be the same thing, sometimes. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, at least not in the physical result meted out.
I think I agree with what your saying here. Do you mean that the same act can sometimes result in both justice and vengeance? If so, I agree. But I don't think this means they are the same thing. Rather, they are two different ends sometimes served by the same means.
quote:Of course this reasoning applies to my calm, thoughtful form of reasoning. Things would be quite different if it were a loved one of mine that were raped. I suspect bordering on certainty that much of what I've said would go the way of the dodo. However, as a society I believe we must recognize that as one of the big reasons why vigilante justice is something to be condemned, not endorsed.
Exactly. It's the fact that so many people can see themselves doing it (including me) which makes strong condemnation necessary.
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My neighborhood used to be really bad, with gang activity, and hard drugs being dealt in the streets. Then a group of the neighborhood dads started picking up baseball bats and crowbars and wandering the streets in droves beating the ever loving crap out of anyone they thought even might be a gang banger. it was a frightening time and I hid from them. However, due to the vigilantes, the cops started coming to the neighborhood and they cracked down on the gang activity as well as the fathers. so now, because of vengeance I live in a very nice neighborhood. So sometimes, vengeance is a great way to get the authorities to notice that there is a problem and they need to pay attention.
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See? Slash and I see this the same way. "A man who rapes my wife or sister has simply committed an elaborate form of suicide." It's not vengeance to me at all. Just a completion of the act the rapist decided to commit.
I think the difference here comes (and like ElJay, I feel we've had this discussion on hatrack many times before) from the difference in the way the world looks to people who have been for long periods of time in situations where civilization is powerless to protect them. For instance, policemen, prison guards, soldiers in combat, or abused children. One begins to see a few things differently, and one of them is this.
In the end, the teacher is not going to protect you, civilization is not going to protect you. The thing that protects you is your own refusal to allow yourself to be victimized. That comes at a cost sometimes, but it's worth the cost. And you realize at some point that because there isn't any authority that will protect you, there likewise is not any authority whose permission you need to obtain before you can take steps to protect yourself.
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(For the record, I don't believe I've had it with you, Tatiana. I was thinking specifically about having it with Lalo. )
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: In the end, the teacher is not going to protect you, civilization is not going to protect you. The thing that protects you is your own refusal to allow yourself to be victimized.
Agreed with a few caveats:
1) They will often protect you if you let them-- spurning help is not strength.
2) Refusing to allow yourself to be victimized means learning how to fight back in the moment you are attacked and being prepared (especially mentally) to do so. This is much more effective than coming behind after the fact and "making sure the B@$t@rd never does it again."
3) Refusing to allow yourself to be victimized also means learning and taking reasonable precautions to avoid such instances. Not at all to blame the victim, but there are things you can do to hedge your bets against being one without living behind an armed and defended perimiter. Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:I think I agree with what your saying here. Do you mean that the same act can sometimes result in both justice and vengeance? If so, I agree. But I don't think this means they are the same thing. Rather, they are two different ends sometimes served by the same means.
That's more or less what I mean. Sometimes, justice and vengeance can both (I believe) call for the same physical action to be done but because there is more to either of those things than just what was physically done, they cannot exactly be called the same.
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vonk,
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My neighborhood used to be really bad, with gang activity, and hard drugs being dealt in the streets. Then a group of the neighborhood dads started picking up baseball bats and crowbars and wandering the streets in droves beating the ever loving crap out of anyone they thought even might be a gang banger. it was a frightening time and I hid from them. However, due to the vigilantes, the cops started coming to the neighborhood and they cracked down on the gang activity as well as the fathers. so now, because of vengeance I live in a very nice neighborhood. So sometimes, vengeance is a great way to get the authorities to notice that there is a problem and they need to pay attention.
I wouldn't call issuing a mob beating to anyone who might be a gang banger a great way of letting the authorities know there's a serious problem in the hood. The cops came running probably for reasons including a concern that some innocent kid might be beaten to death by the mob who just might go a little too far one night, and see someone who was just wearing the latest fashions and give them a nice beating.
Which, for all you know, may actually have happened. Or come quite close to happening, if they were using baseball bats and crowbars to beat their victims as a group. There were other ways to get the cops out there.
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Tatiana,
quote:See? Slash and I see this the same way. "A man who rapes my wife or sister has simply committed an elaborate form of suicide." It's not vengeance to me at all. Just a completion of the act the rapist decided to commit.
Oh come now, that's a dodge. You aren't a lever and the rapist isn't applying force on you to do work or something. You do have a choice. As I have said, I think I would probably do something very similar were I in that emotional situation. But it's still vengeance, it's not something that just happens.
quote:In the end, the teacher is not going to protect you, civilization is not going to protect you. The thing that protects you is your own refusal to allow yourself to be victimized. That comes at a cost sometimes, but it's worth the cost. And you realize at some point that because there isn't any authority that will protect you, there likewise is not any authority whose permission you need to obtain before you can take steps to protect yourself.
This doens't have anything to do, really, with your vengeance scenario because you've already been victimized. It's not about the future, as you suggest when you say 'refusal to be victimized', it's about the past, when you say 'a man who's raped my loved one has just committed delayed suicide.'
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Slash and I see this the same way. "A man who rapes my wife or sister has simply committed an elaborate form of suicide." It's not vengeance to me at all. Just a completion of the act the rapist decided to commit.
That's very pithy, and a convenient abrogation of personal responsibility. It's essentially saying "I have no choice. He did this, so I must do that." which is what keeps feuds going. He might be a rapist, but you're a murderer.
Personally, I'd pick rape over murder if I were going to choose.
Lately, rape is made out to be the worst thing that can happen to a person. But it's not. You live. And life is sweet, even when it's hard.
My best friend's daughter was raped last December. She's my favorite of their three daughters, and I was devestated when I found out. She's doing the brave, hard thing. She's pursuing charges, though it has subjected her to ridicule and torment by some of the girls at school. I'm so impressed with how this has helped her grow, how this has brought their family together, and how justice will be served. That boy will not just go on to his next victim. And his family is being forced to see what they raised.
quote:The thing that protects you is your own refusal to allow yourself to be victimized.
Pressing charges on rape is a as clear a refusal to be a victim as I can think of. Murdering your rapist simply perpetuates victimization: You raping me turned me into a murderer. Pressing charges says: you raping me will not make me ashamed or powerless -- I will take the highest road there is and see society punish you for what you did.
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quote:In the end, the teacher is not going to protect you, civilization is not going to protect you. The thing that protects you is your own refusal to allow yourself to be victimized. That comes at a cost sometimes, but it's worth the cost. And you realize at some point that because there isn't any authority that will protect you, there likewise is not any authority whose permission you need to obtain before you can take steps to protect yourself.
I agree with Rakeesh: the scenario you described in this thread isn't about protection.
Further, anyone you ever accuse of rape would be, by your own philosophy, perfectly justified in blowing you away if they can't convince you that you've made a mistake.
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quote:Dagonee, she was referring to an instance in which she knew that a man with whom she was already acquainted had raped her.
I don't think there's really much room for doubt in that particular situation.
Which means that the accused rapist wouldn't even have to try to convince her according to Tatiania's philosophy.
Further, I don't concede that she has the ability to be certain about it, nor do I trust from her attitude that she would limit it to the situation she says she would. Tatania has announced the intention of actively violating the law to commit murder, even if she could have the person convicted instead. As a person who has announced that she does not feel bound by the most important and serious protections granted by criminal law, I very much don't trust her as a member of society.
It doesn't matter if she's right about the identity of her attacker. Her killing him would be illegal and immoral whether he raped her or not, and he would have every right to defend himself. And, because Tatiana does not limit the instances where deadly force can be used for "protection" to situations where the attack is imminent, he would, under her philosophy, be justified in hunting her down as soon as the accusation was made.
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I can think of a circumstance in which I could willingly take another person's life, but I find an appalling lack of creativity on my part when I try to apply the same "what if" backwards thinking to a rape scenario.
I mean, unless you create a whole new world in which Our Hero must rape someone in order to save the world... and even then the idea leaves a plastic-y taste in my mouth.
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quote:I can think of a circumstance in which I could willingly take another person's life, but I find an appalling lack of creativity on my part when I try to apply the same "what if" backwards thinking to a rape scenario.
I think you have to either change "taking someone's life" to "murder someone" or "rape scenario" to "have sex with someone" for the comparison to be directly relevant to whether one would rather be a rapist or a murderer.
For example, self-defense, a situation where many would be willing to take a life, isn't murder.
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I would totally be willing to take another person's life in a non-self-defensive way. I know myself well enough to realize that I am mentally and physically capable of murder. When it comes to rape, I do not believe I am either.
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Jim-Me, me too when I talked with her a couple of weeks ago. I was pretty outraged. The harrassment has been coming from the boy's sister and her girlfriends, who are in the same grade as my friend's daughter. The girl was going to pursue a complaint on the classmates, as the investigating detective on the case told her that harrassment for having pressed charges is illegal and should also be prosecuted.
As for the rapist vs murderer question, I didn't really mean it that way, but yes, if I were forced to choose to be one or the other, I'd choose rapist. But I can't imagine a circumstance in which I'd choose to be either. If I were going to choose to be victim of one or the other, I'd choose rape. Which is how I meant it initially.
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If the harrassment is severe enough and accompanied by threats to not testify, the girls could be in VERY serious trouble.
I watched a 7 year old girl testify about abuse at the hands of her aunt. People like her and the jeniwren's friend are the people I want to be worthy of as a prosecutor.
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Dag, that's one of the biggest things I've learned out of my friend's experience. There are so many reasons not to press charges and it seems like there's almost no positive at all for the victim. That's what I thought before going through this with them. But that's a lie. The huge intangible positive is the empowerment of not being a victim. It's doing the brave, hard thing and being the better for it. It's shining a huge bright light on a dark and murky wrong, which our natural instincts recoil against. It shoves aside the natural shame that comes from being raped. Still, it's not easy, and I'm hugely impressed that how the whole family is handling it.
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quote:Originally posted by jeniwren: It's doing the brave, hard thing and being the better for it. It's shining a huge bright light on a dark and murky wrong, which our natural instincts recoil against. It shoves aside the natural shame that comes from being raped.
Bravo... her for doing it and you and her family for getting it.
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quote:Originally posted by Olivet: I would totally be willing to take another person's life in a non-self-defensive way. I know myself well enough to realize that I am mentally and physically capable of murder. When it comes to rape, I do not believe I am either.
If I were faced with a situation like the chance to kill a mass murderer or an Achilles or something, I'd probably do it. Of course, in such a circumstance the consequences would be in doubt; I might be a hero for it.
Personal revenge though? Why give your victimizer the posthumous satisfaction of ruining your own life, sacrificing your place in society just to get even? Maybe your not a victim if you simply refuse to let your life and dignity be taken away? (easy to say perhaps, but an honest question).
Jeniwren: I can see how seeking proper justice can help make things "complete" for the victim. I wonder though if for some people this process can become too much a part of their lives. For instance, what if they become eternal victims, defining their lives and relationships, molding their lives around carrying this ultra-important scar around for everyone to see. I have known people like this, people who suffered some hardship and now make it the most important part of who they are; and I wonder if that kind of existance isn't a little empty. After all it can glorify the victimizer and romanticize the crime, in a way having an even bigger impact, making the attacker even more powerful over time. I don't know, I don't think this would happen to everyone, but I could see some people taking it in this direction.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Jeniwren: I can see how seeking proper justice can help make things "complete" for the victim. I wonder though if for some people this process can become too much a part of their lives. For instance, what if they become eternal victims, defining their lives and relationships, molding their lives around carrying this ultra-important scar around for everyone to see?
Orincoro, I know you didn't address me on this, but I want to answer as someone who used to agree with you. I felt that was exactly what most victims were doing.
The truth of the matter, in my case, at least, and I think most LPCs would back me up here, is that it is precisely the attempt to *not* let it define your life, as you say, which allows it to do so.
It was like this: I knew I had been abused, but I didn't want to make my life about that so I hid from it-- didn't talk about it, didn't get any help. I was strong. I could go on. I didn't need to be a whiner about my own situation. Besides, most people had it worse.
Except copping this attitude was precisely what allowed it to fester and spoil. I see whole segments of my life now that would have been so much different if I had dealt with this earlier. Three decades of pain needlessly endured and, to be fair, inflicted. Because what happens is, it *does* dominate your life-- refusing to acknowledge it robs you of the ability to control the effect it has on your life (if you are like I was, and most victims, they say, are).
I don't doubt that people can get "stuck", and I certainly have a tendency to project-- to see my own patterns of thinking in other people. In fact, I'm probably doing some of that right now with you. I get involved in threads like this because I have a strong, irrational desire for other people to benefit from my experience.
It's empowering to acknowledge my victimhood because I need to remind myself that it *wasn't my fault*. It's not like the support groups in "Fight Club" where everyone hugs each other and tells each other happy things which they don't believe (though I love that movie). It's important because victims of abuse commonly, near invariably, blame themselves for the abuse. So that's why, sometimes, people can seem prideful when they say "I am a victim!"... it's a huge part of regaining their self-esteem to remind themselves that they didn't "ask for it."
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: [QUOTE] It's empowering to acknowledge my victimhood because I need to remind myself that it *wasn't my fault*. It's not like the support groups in "Fight Club" where everyone hugs each other and tells each other happy things which they don't believe (though I love that movie). It's important because victims of abuse commonly, near invariably, blame themselves for the abuse. So that's why, sometimes, people can seem prideful when they say "I am a victim!"... it's a huge part of regaining their self-esteem to remind themselves that they didn't "ask for it."
So we really do agree then, because we want the same things!
You simply point out that trying to hide from it is a very unhealthy way of letting it affect your life. I read Drew Pinsky's book "Crack'd" about a year ago, its about addiction treatment, and the nature of addiction. He makes an interesting point that many addicts do this same thing, they make the power of their battle with addiction the center of all their interactions, talking about it constantly and stroking their sense of accomplishment and power: they become addicted to sobriety!
I am not quite sure how it applies to victims; its a different thing surely, but related. Maybe if people draw power from their victimhood, they grow stronger; but what if they become addicted to the power this scar provides, and they re-traumatize themselves over and over in order to feel that lack of control, coupled with the power of overcoming it. I don't know, I've never suffered a truly serious victimization, just teasing and a few fights that come with being a slightly strange child.
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Orincoro - personal revenge, no. For revenge purposes I would perfer maiming - a long life with horrible disfigurement or diability would be best. This also gives the person the perfect opportunity to repent, change their ways, etc.
That would be ideal, as would not getting caught. If you're going to get caught, it might be better just to kill them, I don't know.
I hope I never face that kind of decision -- I doubt I will. If someone made a threat to my children, a credible threat that would be difficult to do anything about other than restraining orders or whatever...
I can't unlearn what I have learned. I cannot claim I am not capapble of violence any more then I can claim I cannot ride a bike. I can choose not to ride a bike and make necessary adjustments in my life to reduce the likelihood of me ever being tempted to ride a bike, but I can't say I am not capapble of it.
That is the distinction I'm making.
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Right, Orincoro, I'm just saying that what can be mistaken for reveling in victimhood can be, and more often than not is, healthy, courageous dealing with an issue. I've seen, and even made, intimations that people are just wallowing in their own problems. I'm willing to categorically state that I was dead wrong about a lot of it and that it happens far less than you might think. I don't doubt, however, that it does happen.
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Again, it's not revenge but protection. By killing him, I would be protecting his future victims, I would be protecting myself from being raped by him again (how many acquaintence rapists repeatedly rape the same victim), and if I were in a situation where I was vulnerable to other rapists, I would make the probability that I would be raped again by someone else negligible (because they would know what happened to the last guy).
Dagonee, it always does outrage the authorities if a victim of repeated abuse will ever learn to fight back. Nevermind that the authorities tolerated and even tacitly approved the repeated abuse over a long period of time. Victims learning not to take it any more is always a violation of the status quo, an overturning of established power structures, and as such it outrages the authority in charge.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Nevermind that the authorities tolerated and even tacitly approved the repeated abuse over a long period of time.
Unless I missed something, this was not a part of your initial scenario.
In a case where you were denied justice by the relevant authorities, I would take an entirely differnt view of your actions and said as much early on.
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For those who do wallow in it, this is something to be pitied, not condemned. They are choosing a prison.
I agree with everything Jim-Me said, and am having a hard time really formulating a complete reply because it is as equally personal as what he shared. Suffice it to say that I think it's a lot healthier to say out loud, without cringing or shame "I was raped." than it is to say nothing and think you're going on with your life. I don't know about other people, but, IMO, it comes back no matter how well you process it.
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I want to remind everyone who is outraged by my attitude that I would never want nor seek out this situation, and that every potential attacker can be safe from the terror that is Tatiana by the simple expedient of not attacking and raping me. You seem not to trust me to know when I've been attacked and raped, but I assure you there would be no doubt about the matter. You seem to think it is a matter that is easy to be mistaken about, but that won't be the case. It's been a long time since I tolerated abuse without fighting back. The attacker could always run away at any point. I'm talking about someone who overcame the most violent defense I was able to muster, in whatever situation I found myself. Nowadays, I get angry and cold and vicious when attacked, rather than becoming afraid or timid (until afterward), so I assure you that only a determined and quite violent attacker would be able to carry through.
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quote:Again, it's not revenge but protection. By killing him, I would be protecting his future victims, I would be protecting myself from being raped by him again (how many acquaintence rapists repeatedly rape the same victim), and if I were in a situation where I was vulnerable to other rapists, I would make the probability that I would be raped again by someone else negligible (because they would know what happened to the last guy).
None of which you have even asserted isn't available under our current system of justice.
quote:Dagonee, it always does outrage the authorities if a victim of repeated abuse will ever learn to fight back.
This doesn't outrage me as an "authority." It outrages me as a citizen.
quote:Victims learning not to take it any more is always a violation of the status quo, an overturning of established power structures, and as such it outrages the authority in charge.
And yet, you've specifically acknowledged that you wouldn't be doing this because the status quo wouldn't seek justice. You would be doing it to avoid the trauma of the investigation and the jury trial.
You can dress this up in victimology all you want - it's still murder, you'd still be a murderer, and you're still a danger to the rights of others.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:I want to remind everyone who is outraged by my attitude that I would never want nor seek out this situation, and that every potential attacker can be safe from the terror that is Tatiana by the simple expedient of not attacking and raping me. You seem not to trust me to know when I've been attacked and raped, but I assure you there would be no doubt about the matter. You seem to think it is a matter that is easy to be mistaken about, but that won't be the case. It's been a long time since I tolerated abuse without fighting back. The attacker could always run away at any point. I'm talking about someone who overcame the most violent defense I was able to muster, in whatever situation I found myself. Nowadays, I get angry and cold and vicious when attacked, rather than becoming afraid or timid (until afterward), so I assure you that only a determined and quite violent attacker would be able to carry through.
1.) No one here has argued that you don't have the right to use all force needed to stop the attack. Your original scenario has nothing to do with whether or not the violent attacker would be able to carry through. You've asserted that, were you to be raped, you would shoot the person afterwards. If you're merely advocating self defense during the attack, I doubt anyone here opposes that.
2.) It's not your right to take violent action based upon your determination as to whether someone else raped you. You have a right to defend yourself, violently if need be. You don't have a right to use violence to punish.
3.) None of the stuff specific to you matters to the morality of this decision. You are claiming authority you don't have.
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posted
Jim-Me, I'm explaining the typical response of authorities to such situations, which encompasses many more stories and events than just the single scenario I outlined.
From the civil rights movement, to kids being beaten up in school, to domestic abuse, to stalker ex-bfs, to child abuse, to child molestation, heck, even to multinational corporations' abuse and exploitation of third world workers, the authorities nearly always react in the same way, to protect the aggressors and maintain the power structure status quo.
I agree that eternal victimhood is a low quality response. That's why I don't recommend that path, but rather, prefer a strong determined refusal to be made a victim of. Such a refusal always angers the authorites. However, that's to be expected and accepted as part of it.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: From the civil rights movement, to kids being beaten up in school, to domestic abuse, to stalker ex-bfs, to child abuse, to child molestation, heck, even to multinational corporations' abuse and exploitation of third world workers, the authorities nearly always react in the same way, to protect the aggressors and maintain the power structure status quo.
That's far from categorically true... for one, without the intervention of due authority, the civil rights movement would likely have ended the way Martin Luther King jr. did.
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Lyrhawn: "Sorry Tatiana, but that still registers rather high on my crazy-o-meter."
Lyr, it does seem rather crazy to people who have not been exposed to violent harsh environments for long periods of time. Perhaps the best take-away lesson for those people (let's call them civilians), is "don't ever attack a (non-civilian)".
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posted
ak, I think you underestimate the myriad subtlties of the crime of acquaintance rape. It's often not violent at all. It's a mind game and afterward, the victim is left wondering if it was really rape, or did they ask for it? The guilt isn't some psychological symptom, like a sniffly nose comes with a cold. It's because you were very effectively manipulated. Your weaknesses were exploited.
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posted
Jim-Me: "That's far from categorically true... for one, without the intervention of due authority, the civil rights movement would likely have ended the way Martin Luther King jr. did."
And if they had waited for the authorities to bring about justice, we would all still be waiting.
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