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Author Topic: H.R. 4437
Reticulum
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Im sure everyone has heard of this, but you know, I never thought the protests would get as big as they have. Right at my capitol, (Salem), there was a protest with at least 300 people. Not very large, but I didn't even think we would have any. Even right at my own school, there were signs on lockers saying "Viva la Mexico", "Brown Pride", which I didn't really get. The signs seemed to think that this was more about racism then immigration.

Anyway, I think 4437 is a good idea, but should be tweeked a little. Instead of making illegals felons, they should make it easier to become citizens. Make it so they can just come out, and get citizenship, no strings attatched. Then, after that, make it simpler for immigrints to get citizenship.

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Swampjedi
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Wait, what was wrong with the other thread? [Confused]
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Reticulum
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Eh, that one has transformed into a debate about China like countless other threads, and I would like to voice my opnions in my own thread. If that's so wrong, you think I should delete it?
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Lyrhawn
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A debate about China?


Did Blayne get ahold of it?

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Reticulum
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No, which surprises me. Who knows when he'll catch drift. Anyone know what his deal with China is?
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MrSquicky
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He thinks Asian girls are hot and he uses strenuous defense of rejected ideas as a way to get attention.

You, on the other hand, get squeed out when threads you start go on for a long time, so you start threads on controversial issues and put minimal effort into them.

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
He thinks Asian girls are hot and he uses strenuous defense of rejected ideas as a way to get attention.

You, on the other hand, get squeed out when threads you start go on for a long time, so you start threads on controversial issues and put minimal effort into them.

Man. You're nothing if not direct, Squick.

I'm not sure how your analysis of Reticulum follows. Because he gets squeezed out of threads that have gone on a long time he starts controversial issue threads? I'm not sure that I see the cause and effect there.

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MrSquicky
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I'm in a real mood tonight. I'm not trying so much to bite back some of the things that come to mind. It's entirely possible I'll regret it in the morning.

Also, not squeezed. Squeed. As in, superficially deleriously happy - kind of like how a puppy gets happy. And yes, using it that way is a terrible crime against the English language, but it's been pissing me off too. Lousy mishmash of incompatible languages. Take that why don't you.

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rivka
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Not squeezed. Squeed -- excited.

(Drat! Not fast enough. [Razz] )

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Noemon
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Hope things go better for you tomorrow, Squick.
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Noemon
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I completely missed the fact that you typed "squeed". With that word properly inserted into what I read, what you said matches my perception of things.
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MrSquicky
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Oh, I'm not particularly upset or anything. I'm not really saying these things to be mean, although I am saying them because I'm not particularly nice. I'm just in a mood where refraining from saying the obnoxious, but probably somewhat true things that bubble up in response to certain things doesn't seem to be that important, so I'm temporarily dropping my normal "sweetness and light" persona.

I think I may have missed the "provoking a crisis point" period for at least some of the stuff I'm aiming at, but sometimes you give it a shot anyway.

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Reticulum
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
He thinks Asian girls are hot and he uses strenuous defense of rejected ideas as a way to get attention.

You, on the other hand, get squeed out when threads you start go on for a long time, so you start threads on controversial issues and put minimal effort into them.

I'm not exactly sure where you get this from. I start threads because I find them interesting. Sometimes people start them generally with the same topic, but I like to ask from a different view. Turns out that starting a thread is a better way to hear from others, then posting in a old one. Also, sometimes they go offtrack, and its impossible to communicate the original point. *cough, cough*

I put plenty of effort into threads...sometimes.

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Mr.Funny
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Ret, you keep complaining about threads going off topic. As you've probably noticed, threads on the 'rack tend to wander off of the original intent, which is completely fine. It'd be a boring place if everybody had to stick to the topic, all the time. Instead of whining and trying to point out how everyone else is derailing, why don't you make constructive posts that are on-topic instead? This would have the twofold advantage of A: keeping the thread on-topic, which is something that you apparently value and B: quashing other posters' notions about you and starting threads. It's a win-win situation!
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Reticulum
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I don't think I make such a big deal about it. I'm really not complaining. I only said that sometimes threads go off topic, and original points can't be commuinicated. That's it.

Saying: "sometimes threads go offtrack, and it is impossible to communicate the original point.", is not complaining. It is stating a fact, which contributes to why I start threads.

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Mr.Funny
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Once is not a complaint. However, I've seen you say similar things on a number of other occasions. I know you don't think it's complaining, but it certainly does sound that way. I'm just saying that if you are concerned about threads going off topic, a more effective way than telling people that it's going off topic is to post on topic yourself.
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Reticulum
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I'm sorry if I sounded like I was complaining. I don't think I was, but I suppose I might have. Anyways, back on topic:

1) Why, (from the pictures I have seen) do some of the people in those rallies wave the flags of Mexico, and other latin American countries, when they want immigrints to live in the U.S.?

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Lyrhawn
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I think some of it is a representation of where they come from. They're saying "we're here, this is where we came from, but we really want to live here, or, at least stay here so long as we can take your money and send it back to our families in El Salvador." But I digress.

I think a big part of the point is to say that everyone in America (with the exception of Indians obviously) comes from somewhere else, and so do they. I think it's a bad idea, as people are totally taking it the wrong way, or if they are taking it the right way, it's still a bad idea.

Waving American flags would have given everyone the right message, but that isn't necessarily what they are trying to say. Honestly, I don't think the majority of the illegal immigrant lobby/supporters understand the mindset of middle America. And not understanding it is really getting in the way of their message.

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aspectre
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Hey!!! Quit posting off topic, Lyrhawan.
This one is about snubbing other threads, China, Blayne, hot Asian girls, Reticulum, MrSquicky, interpersonal relationships, corrected spelling, miscorrected spelling, new words, puppies, onomatopoeia, the tyranny of the English language, too late explanations, mood swings, self-analysis, thread drift, staying on topic, derailing, and me having the last post.

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ketchupqueen
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quote:
Honestly, I don't think the majority of the illegal immigrant lobby/supporters understand the mindset of middle America.
I think there are different parts of middle America. At least half of middle America I come in contact with agrees with the protests, at least in large part. Maybe my sample is skewed, but it does indicate to me that there are more attitudes out there than just people being offended by the way people "supporting the illegal immigrants" choose to share their message.

Another question is, how much of middle America supported the civil rights movement in the middle of the last century from the start? Most people agree that it was a good idea to desegregate schools today. How many people said, "It will cause too much trouble to change things, I can see where they're coming from but they're disrupting business, and besides, they don't really have it as bad as starving children in other parts of the world" back then?

Just musing.

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vonk
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Alright, I'm not trying to complain or anything, but there are now two threads about HR-4437, yet not one person responded to my thread about the very same subject last week. I think I'm being insulted. Or maybe you guys just don't like that post? guffah! harrumph! and other fun to say and spell words!

http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=042351;p=0&r=nfx

ya'know, just sayin.... anyways, I think the other thread is doin just fine.

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opiejudy
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I strongly disagree with even the word illegal immigration. this is America a land of immigrants... all immigration should be legal. Not to mention my economy here in the Central Valley of California would collapse without migrant workers.
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Rakeesh
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I think that anyone who really thinks that opposition to illegal immigration on a personal level is limited to "middle" America needs to get their head out of their posterior and actually talk to people aside from their friends who largely agree with them.

Racist ideas and opposition to 'them' taking 'our' jobs-as though they were ours by birthright, or something-is by no means limited to either the middle-class, or the geographic middle, of America.

Furthermore it is a grim, grim day when I start nodding my head in agreement when Mr. Squicky posts. Or at least, pretty darn unusual.

Even Indians came from somewhere else.

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andi330
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What should be happening is that we first find a way to prevent illegal aliens from entering the country. Once we have solved that issue, then we can worry about the people who are already here.
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Lalo
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Even Indians came from somewhere else.

Like... India?
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Rakeesh
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Yup. And ironically the origin point of Native Americans is a lot closer to India than it is to anywhere in the American continents.
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Lyrhawn
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Middle America, for better or for worse, is the majority of the people in this country. The wealthy are an extreme minority, and the poor are less than half the middle class. You're right KQ, I should have made a distinction in the differences that exist within Middle America.

The very poor however aren't the ones leading the charge against immigration. They're almost never leading the charge anywhere because the media doesn't care about them, and doesn't give them air time.

Besides, the rich are pulling for this immigration legislation to pass anyway. Low paid illegals are good for business. So long as the punishment laws don't get passed too.

I think disagreement with the "middle America" idea is more a disagreement on what middle America actually is, rather than a disagreement on where the loudest voices are coming from.

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Artemisia Tridentata
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quote:
A Salt Lake police spokeswoman said it was impossible to gauge the size of the huge crowd before aerial photographs are studied Monday. Estimates were across the board, ranging up to 25,000, she said.
quote:
A counterdemonstration featuring members of the Minuteman organization and supporters drew about 150.
Hopefully these two quotes from todays Deseret News, in Utah, gives us a better feel for what "middle America" is thinking. Utah may be a little to the east of top dead center on the political map. But, they shouldn't be too far off on this issue.
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