quote: Moussaoui mocked the tearful testimony of 9/11 victims and their families and wished for similar attacks every day until America falls. He gave a detailed explanation of his hatred for America, flipping through a Quran on the witness stand trying to find justification for his views.
I understand not wanting to execute anyone when there's the slightest question of guilt, but this guy is guilty in spades and eager to do it again.
I'm curious to know if this man would be an exception for even the most ardent anti-death penalty people.
Farther down in the article he testifies that he expects to be released as part of a prisoner exchange.
What is his crime that warrants the death penalty again?
Hating America?
Rejoicing in the pain of others?
Being in dire need on Lithium?
Is any of this worse than the #@$#@ minister in Kansas who protests soldiers funerals claiming they deserved to die?
He did not kill anybody. He just didn't tell people he considers his enemies what his friends were doing. Its doubtful if that information would have saved any lives anyway.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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What is his crime that warrants the death penalty again?
His crime is causing the death of everybody in 911 by wilfully lying to the FBI, the assumption being that if he had told the truth, it could have been stopped.
quote:He did not kill anybody. He just didn't tell people he considers his enemies what his friends were doing.
No, the charge isn't that he didn't tell, but that he actively lied.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
His charges: Conspiracy to Commit Acts of Terrorism Transcending National Boundaries Conspiracy to Commit Aircraft Piracy Conspiracy to Destroy Aircraft Conspiracy to Use Weapons of Mass Destruction Conspiracy to Murder United States Employees Conspiracy to Destroy Property
quote:Is any of this worse than the #@$#@ minister in Kansas who protests soldiers funerals claiming they deserved to die?
I don't think anyone in their right mind loves Phelps, but he is exercising his rights to free speech and peaceful demonstration. That's totally different than someone who knew about and helped plan to kill over 3,000 people. And who would be happy to do it again, anything to bring an end to the United States of America and kill anyone who is not Muslim. Please. If you're going to compare the guy to someone, pick someone who has committed real atrocities who is nonetheless not going to be executed. Like Gary Ridgeway.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Conspiracy to commit murder is difficult to prove, and from what I've seen in the case, I am unsure if the government made that case.
His anti-us/pro-death/pain loving rant does nothing to prove this case other than to show he had the desire to be part of such a conspiracy. It certainly throws into question if he had the temperment/sanity to be recruited for such an conspiracy.
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posted
If we keep him in prison, they will likely take hostages to get him released. Is that any better than a martyr?
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posted
There's no one more pro-death penalty that I am, but it's not so clear to me, based upon what I've read in the papers, that even if this guy cooperated with the Feds we would have been able to stop 9-11. My understanding is that the 9-11 conspirators thought him too loco and unreliable, which is why they put him on the second wave. He's guilty because he was part of the 9-11 conspiracy, not just because he didn't cooperate. For the conspiracy alone he deserves the death penalty. On the other hand, I'd rather see him put into the general population of our toughest federal prison and let the inmates mete their own punishment.
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I think the best recourse in sentencing as guilty would be to put him someplace extremely well-guarded, treat him decently, but pretty much ignore him otherwise (and make sure others can't be influenced by him, as well).
Treating him decently would include any and all appropriate mental health care, too. But to the extent that his horrible behavior cannot be explained by psychopathology (and I have no idea how much this would be, by the way), I think whatever is left would be most effectively and infuriatingly addressed by indifference.
He strikes me as the sort of person who might well dread being a "nobody" more than any other fate at all.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
fwiw, I'm not really pro-death penalty anymore. Used to be, but really don't see the point.
And in Moussaui's case, I think we're going to have a hard time keeping him alive and secure at the same time.
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quote:On the other hand, I'd rather see him put into the general population of our toughest federal prison and let the inmates mete their own punishment.
I'd rather we kept the law and didn't administer cruel and unusual punishment.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
So, then, if we're going to kill Moussaoui for not telling what he knew, what should we do about the higher-ups in the FBI who apparently, in the months before 9/11, repeatedly ignored reports by field agents (from at least two offices: Minneapolis, Minnesota and Phoenix, Arizona) that flight schools should be investigated for possibly training terrorists?
Personally, at the very least, I think these guys should have been denied promotion. However, it is my understanding that at least one official who quashed the reports was in fact promoted later on.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Conspiracy to commit murder is difficult to prove, and from what I've seen in the case, I am unsure if the government made that case.
He admitted guilt to conspiracy to commit murder. The conspiracy charge does NOT stem from his lying to the FBI. The lying was an act in furtherence of the conspiracy he was already part of. The key thing that needed to be proved is if his act led to the death of at least one person.
quote:So, then, if we're going to kill Moussaoui for not telling what he knew, what should we do about the higher-ups in the FBI who apparently, in the months before 9/11, repeatedly ignored reports by field agents (from at least two offices: Minneapolis, Minnesota and Phoenix, Arizona) that flight schools should be investigated for possibly training terrorists?
The lying was one act he committed as part of a conspiracy he had already joined and furthered. It's quite different from being a bad investigator.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
If he is executed, it will be regretable (to me), but I won't lose much sleep.
I dunno, I can't hate anyone enough to condemn them to death*. Which doesn't mean I want this guy to ever see the outside of a prison ever again.
I don't want him abused in prison; I don't even care if we hope holding him the rest of his life is worse than the death penalty. I'm not big on vengeance. I leave that up to those who are more qualified than me.
-Bok
*I believe that it can be justified to kill in individual self-defense, but in those situations we aren't left with many other options.
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Regarding whether he wants to be made into a martyr and whether he dreads being a "nobody," why should we care about what his feelings are in the matter. Sure its better if he fears the death penalty, but if he doesn't, so what? The point is that he must, by one way or another, die. As for making him a martyr, these crazies have plenty of them already. What difference would one more make?
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mig: Regarding whether he wants to be made into a martyr and whether he dreads being a "nobody," why should we care about what his feelings are in the matter. Sure its better if he fears the death penalty, but if he doesn't, so what? The point is that he must, by one way or another, die.
Trust me on this -- he will.
I was just musing on the rest, not offering it as argument.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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I don't really know why, I just do. Visualizing nightmare scenarios (violence to my wife), makes me want to do all sorts of pain and injury to that imaginary person, but I still stop short of killing them.
posted
Well, many/most people that are against the death penalty are just going with "Thou shall not kill"
that's pretty clear, and independant of the situation (though obviously there are some grey areas such as self defense, or killing an attacker in order to save an innocent family etc...)
if you're against it based on some doubt of guilt then perhaps this would be an instance where you could waffle to the pro side for a second. However, while it may not be entirely applicable in this case, also consider some doubt in possible insanity etc... I could vehemently claim that I shot Kennedy, but that doesn't make me guilty. (ignore the fact that I wasn't born yet)
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posted
What's wrong with hate? I hate Hitler and Stalin, and probably would have hated them more if I had been around during thier murderous days. Why not hate serial killers and men who rape and torture children? Why not hate tyrants like Castro or BenLaden? Why not hate everything that these evil men stand for and do? Why not hate their followers who are willing to do the biding of these evil men? But that I hate men like Moussaoui has nothing to do with the issue. He must die, not because I hate him, but because it is just.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
why not hate? because hate only propogates more hate... vendettas are not a good thing.
I'd rather pitty people who are that misguided and twisted. And to be honest even that is somewhat satisfying because pity is likley to piss off extremists more than hate...
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Mig, I don't know. All good questions. When I think on it, like my earlier answer, I want to cause them extreme pain in creative ways. But I don't want to kill them.
Maybe that is hate. But then why do I not feel like I should kill them?
posted
because hate is pointless. It doesn't impact the person you are hating, all it does is drag you down.
As for killing him, I would be against it. I don't think it is right to kill someone who you have in custody. It seems a bit like murder to me.
If you catch someone like him in the act, I see nothing wrong with killing to stop the crime. I wouldn't see anything wrong with assasinating someone like Hitler, or Bin Laden. However, once you have them in custody, you don't need to kill them to stop their actions...so I feel that killing them would be wrong.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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quote: What positive benefit comes from hating? I see no need for it to one firm of purpose.
If you cannot hate evil men and the evil that they do, if you cannot hate terrorists like Moussaoui and BenLadeen, then how firm can one's purpose be?
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
You think that I have a problem with stopping people like Moussaoui and bin Laden, even if it is necessary to kill them? I really don't.
I see no need to indulge in hating these people in order to do this. Rationally, I'm in a situation where these actions are important for my continued survival. I don't feel the need for an emotional goad.
You may as well say that I don't want to pass a test if I don't spend time worrying about it. The way I see it, you prepare as best as you can and then you do it. Worry or hate generally not only don't help you acheive your goals, but they often hinder them as well.
They make you stupid. They make you stressed. They distract your focus away from where it is needed.
I think it's a bad idea to turn your enemies into things or monsters. I think it's a mistake to stop viewing them as generally rational human beings trying to acheive their goals. When you understand them, they become much easier to stop. Also, I have to wonder how committed you are if you feel a need to do this before you can act aggressively towards them.
Hate is not a show of strength. It's a sign of weakness.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
You don't have to hate people to want them stopped or brought to justice, even if that justice is death. Hate has nothing to do with stopping people who are committing atrocious acts. Stopping them is worth it independent of your personal feelings toward them.
If someone I love was doing something illegal, I would still want them to face justice. At the same time, I would still love them.
posted
The workings of this guy's mind are unintelligible to me. I could just say that he is a loon, but I don't even know enough to make that case. Either way, I'm don't like the idea of killing people for being hateful towards America.
If the only reason to kill him is because the American populace would get off on it, I think we should expect more of the American people. Maybe if I could believe that Mousaoui were capable of masterminding anything, then maybe I could agree, but the guy seems like a foot-soldier who wasn't called to duty, so we are talking about killing him not for conspiracy or even the crime, but for his zealousness and willingness to commit the crime.
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posted
None of you have adressed what to do when hostages are taken and the demands are this man's freedom.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I'm not sure that keeping him alive but refraining from discussing him will give additional ammunition to hostage-takers. I mean, would it be that hard to find something else to take hostages for? Like, say, our troops leaving a certain area?
If they want to take hostages, they will find a reason to do so. As it is, this guy has already been marginalized by his own band of politicos. I don't really think they'd have anything invested in him, particularly,* unless it is as an excuse.
(In which case, see above.)
-------
Edited to add: *Unlike, say, bin Laden himself. Now you could ask whether bin Laden should be put to death if he were in this guy's shoes, but that might well be a different discussion.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:None of you have adressed what to do when hostages are taken and the demands are this man's freedom.
Because I don't think that our criminal justice system should be subverted for fear of what terrorist/hostage-takers might do. We live our life by the light of wisdom and an eye to dignity, not from of fear of what some animals would do.
posted
It isn't as if extremists aren't already taking hostages and demanding their comrades' freedom. If someone did that over this guy, we would follow the same protocol.
Refuse to let him out, do everything we can to get the hostages out. If we can't we will be very sad for what happens.
We are already doing this over and over in Iraq anyway. I don't see why a brand new system should be instituted for one guy.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: The lying was one act he committed as part of a conspiracy he had already joined and furthered. It's quite different from being a bad investigator.
That's true. But people get fired from jobs all the time for making mistakes and bad judgements that are far, far less costly than refusing to allow further investigation of activities that ended up costing thousands of lives.
I'm not saying that whoever quashed the investigations should be executed. I'm not even necessarily saying that they should be fired. However, I am saying that they screwed up big-time and there should have been some negative consequences for them. Job promotion is not a negative consequence.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: I see no need to indulge in hating these people in order to do this.
No indulgence here. Some people are easy to hate.
quote: Rationally, I'm in a situation where these actions are important for my continued survival. I don't feel the need for an emotional goad.
Very true, but hate need not be blind to be justified, or an all consuming emotion to prompt one to act.
quote: They make you stupid. They make you stressed. They distract your focus away from where it is needed.
Again, hating a terrorist should not require a great effort, or be a blinding emotion or passion, or cloud rationality.
quote: I think it's a mistake to stop viewing them as generally rational human beings trying to acheive their goals.
These are not rational men.
quote: When you understand them, they become much easier to stop.
True. And I think I understanding them. And I think you understand them too which is why you are equally committed to stopping them.
quote: Also, I have to wonder how committed you are if you feel a need to do this before you can act aggressively towards them.
I don't feel a need to hate these men before acting agressively towards them. I just think that hatred of terrorists is reasonable and justified. I do not see the need for moral hesitancy. It is not enough for me to say that I "dislike" men who fly planes full of people into tall buildings full of people. I more than "dislike" men who fly planes full of people into tall buildings full of people. Why would I, or any one, want to act agressively against any person, or group of persons [read terrorists] I only "dislike?" I "dislike" Britany Spears, I hate BenLadeen.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Mar 2006
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What are other misunderstood OSC characters? Anyone think of a relevant story here?
-----
Edited to add: I'm not trying to suggest that the guy in the original post is or was misunderstood. I'm trying to piece through Mig's stance on hate.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:What's wrong with hate? I hate Hitler and Stalin, and probably would have hated them more if I had been around during thier murderous days. Why not hate serial killers and men who rape and torture children? Why not hate tyrants like Castro or BenLaden?
Because I don't trust the judgments of somebody who is acting out of hate.
quote:Why not hate everything that these evil men stand for and do?
That's easy. Because no man is entirely evil.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I agree. But so what? Hitler's dog loved him, and I'm sure his mother and Eva saw his nice side. But why equivocate?
You asked why I shouldn't hate everything an evil man does or stands for.
Because not all the things [insert evin man here] did or stood for were evil. Why should I bother to hate taking showers just because Hitler took them?
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: If he is executed, it will be regretable (to me), but I won't lose much sleep.
I dunno, I can't hate anyone enough to condemn them to death*. Which doesn't mean I want this guy to ever see the outside of a prison ever again.
I don't want him abused in prison; I don't even care if we hope holding him the rest of his life is worse than the death penalty. I'm not big on vengeance. I leave that up to those who are more qualified than me.
-Bok
*I believe that it can be justified to kill in individual self-defense, but in those situations we aren't left with many other options.
quote: When I think on it, like my earlier answer, I want to cause them extreme pain in creative ways. But I don't want to kill them.
Maybe that is hate. But then why do I not feel like I should kill them?
-Bok
I've been mulling over this comments and I think that for me the issue isn't that I couldn't hate anyone enough to wish them dead, but that I believe that I shouldn't hate anyone that much. I do get angry at people and I do on occasion feel hateful to people, but I see this as a character flaw. Whenever I act in anger, I regret it. Jesus taught "Love your enemies", and I aspire to follow that. He also that when we fail to forgive another, we have the greater sin (LDS scripture). I do not always succeed in following these commands, but I aspire toward them.
Second, I consider life to be sacred, all life. That includes the life of criminals. The sacredness of life is not the result of our virtues as individuals, it is a gift of god that none can earn or deserve. Because life is a gift from God, I believe that only God has the authority to take that gift. Killing is wrong. And while I can see making an exception to that for self defense, I can't see making an exception because of a crime. Wrong doesn't become right just because someone else has done it. If some one were mean or nasty, it wouldn't justify my being mean an nasty back. When we, as a society, kill killers we are in effect saying that their immoral action has made it moral to kill. I know that some people accept that, I do not.
I don't think that justice is ever truly possible in any human forum. I believe that justice is the domain of God, because only God has the knowledge and power to be just. I can't see that executing Mousaui would in anyway balance the acts of terror he conspired to commit. The goal of any human legal system, should be to prevent and deter crime. Attempting to be just can contribute to those goals and so justice is not irrelevant, it simply shouldn't be the ultimate goal of the legal system. Life in prison is a very serious punishment. In many ways, I think I'd find it worse than execution. It is more than sufficient to keep him from commiting another such crime.
The only argument for the death penalty which has any moral standing in my eyes, is the argument that it deters murders. I have looked at many studies of this issue, and come to the conclusion that there is no compelling evidence that the death penalty has a deterent effect in any situation. Given that suicide is a favored tactic of current terror groups, it is difficult to believe that the threat of a death penalty would deter them when it doesn't deter others.
If we execute Mousaui, we risk making him into a martyr and provoking more atttacks to avenge his death. If we keep him in prison, we risk the possiblity of terrorist acts to free him. Even if we sentence him to death, we risk attacks or kidnappings on the eve of his execution. There are no safe choices. We must choose based on what we believe to be moral and not on how terrorist might respond.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Law should be based on justice, not vengence, and executions are inherently vengful. I could point out that every western democracy has banned executions, I could qoute Shakespeare, the Bible and Foucault, but I feel that my energies would be wasted.
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