quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I think, then, you are in the rather uncomfortable position of suggesting that most of humanity for most of history has practiced child abuse.
My therapist informed me that she is required by law to report to the authorities anything more than an open handed slap on the rump.
By that standard, yes indeed, the vast majority of historical, and even currently living, humanity has practiced child abuse.
When I was 10 and again when I was 12, I was paddled at school without even prior parental notification much less permission (which they would have absolutely given).
As I noted above-- for good or ill, the standards have changed.
I'm wondering, though, KoM, when the vast majority of humanity became a standard for you? It certainly isn't on other topics...
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quote:Why do people think it's a bad thing that children should be adequately supervised?
I think we're just disagreeing on what "adequately supervised" means.
quote:I get that eventually they need to learn to be on their own and have responsiblity, but surely 15 and 16 is young enough to start learning that.
Even though they could be out of the house and living on their own as early as 17? Granted, college isn't really, "on your own," but I'd still call that a monumental leap for someone who's only been allowed to be unsupervised for one or two years.
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Out of curiosity, is there anyone here who is advocating less need for kids to be supervised who actually has children of their own?
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I was wondering how long that would take to come up.
Nope, no kids here and for a good while I'd say. Just writing based on having been a kid. Take it for what it's worth.
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quote:Out of curiosity, is there anyone here who is advocating less need for kids to be supervised who actually has children of their own?
Not I. I'm basing this on kids I know who are under 14 who I know could take (and have taken) care of younger siblings for at least a few hours, and on my own experiences.
It wouldn't surprise me if most of the people arguing for stricter supervision are parents, and vice versa, though. Parents tend to be biased on this stuff towards the overprotection end of the spectrum - I'm guessing because they worry a lot about their kids and thus tend to view kids in a certain way. And nonparents tend towards the other end of the spectrum - I'd guess because we lack those same feelings and experiences, and often view kids in a different sort of way.
I generally think that the parental perspective is less accurate, but also is a more effective perspective to use to raise kids - because it is better to be overcautious than undercautious when raising a kid, no? But that opinion is through the lens of my own biases, too.
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Look back over this thread and see how people have persistently tried to find an excuse to call me lazy or environmentally unfriendly for having a large vehicle... look how far they've gone:
I should bus my kids. I should hire a nanny. I should live within walking distance of work. I should leave them unattended for 2-3 hours a day.
Even if I did all of that, I'd stll own a huge car because if I don't I can't carry my entire family anywhere and some of us are not $#^*^@*@%# rich and spoiled enough to afford and maintain two vehicles for one driver. I'm not and I make more than the national median income (last I checked).
And no one has even mentioned auto racing, vacationing, traveling fairs, other traveling entertainment (sports, music tours), or group outings/tournaments (cheerleading, band, sports, gymnastics, church, etc.)-- all of which are a hell of a lot more frivolous use of resources than my poor car.
I re-iterate... this nonsense is why people don't listen and why people have the impression that environmentalists are about attacking a certain class of people and not actually solving a problem.
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: It wouldn't surprise me if most of the people arguing for stricter supervision are parents, and vice versa, though.
Neither would I. But I'm going to debate the why. IMO, parents have actual experience with what happens when there is NOT sufficient supervision -- both in terms of what their kids do and in terms of other people's reactions.
When you have had someone imply that you should be reported to DCS because your 11 year old spends 45 minutes unsupervised, or because your six year old has untameable hair (I kid you not -- her hair looks as though it were never brushed 30 minutes after it has been tamed, and I keep hearing about it), get back to me.
posted
Everyone has had experience with what happens when there is no supervision of children. Even at the very minimum, everyone has been an unsupervised child at some point in their life. I'm sure most people have been around unsupervised children before and have seen how they can act and what they might do. What parents uniquely have experience with is how it is to be in such a situation from the perspective of being the parent, as opposed to the child or a third party. But I don't think that is the only perspective that counts.
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quote:But I don't think that is the only perspective that counts.
What most people other than parents (and possibly teachers) lack is the daily experience of what kids do even when they are directly under an adult's watchful eye.
Even though everyone was at some point a child, they aren't remembering those events as observers who truly understood the ramifications of some of the more dangerous things they did.
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quote:That is the ace of trumps. Nothing you say is going to make me risk losing custody of my kids. And for damn sure not to save a few gallons of gas!
Hey, I wasn't the one who said you should actually leave your kids there. I was the one who said it shouldn't be illegal to do so - they shouldn't be able to take your custody for that.
quote:Even though everyone was at some point a child, they aren't remembering those events as observers who truly understood the ramifications of some of the more dangerous things they did.
This is true, but none of the perspectives is one that truly understands ALL the remifications of something. I think parents tend to understand certain ramification much better ("I could have injured myself") but at the same time tend to downplay or forget other ramifications ("My peers would have made fun of me if I didnt do it.") From a parental perspective, physical injury is much more prominent concern, but from a child's perspective it might be less important. Who is correct? It is hard to say - but I've certainly seen some parents who want their child's safety to be the highest priority for their child, but apply an opposite logic to themselves.
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We've all been kids, Tres. I remember what it was like to be a kid and have to worry about peer pressure. I know how big a deal it can be. As a parent, I now understand that there are things that are bigger deals, like safety.
Parents deal in a lot of "could haves". Even if the chance that something bad might happen is low, the cost is just way too high.
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: [QUOTE]I'm basing this on kids I know who are under 14 who I know could take (and have taken) care of younger siblings for at least a few hours, and on my own experiences.
And my arguement is that there's a big difference between occasionally taking care of younger siblings for a few hours, and doing it day after day for years on end.
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quote: Out of curiosity, is there anyone here who is advocating less need for kids to be supervised who actually has children of their own?
Yup. Me.
(long rant)
When my son went to kindergarten we took him the first few days, and then let him walk to school himself. It was just across the road, and you could see the schoolyard (but not the school) from our house. There was a crossing guard in the morning, but after school he stayed at an after school daycare program. We picked him up at about 6:00.
BTW, this was the same elementary school that my wife walked to everyday when she was a child, and we were living with her mother in the same house.
This went on for some time. When he was in 1st grade, he still went to the daycare, but he complained that his friends all left before 6:00, so my wife and I told him that he could walk home anytime after 5:00, since my mother-in-law or I would be home. I was going to school at the time, and was often home during the daytime, but my mother-in-law was always home by 5:00. At the very worst, my wife and I would be home an hour later, and we also had two neighbor's houses he could go to.
We gave him a note to give to the daycare, saying he had permission to walk home after 5:00. My wife or I still stopped by the school to pick him up at 6:00, but we expected to get there and find that he'd already left. But he never walked home on his own, and wouldn't tell us why not.
One day I got a call from my daughter's daycare, saying that she had a high fever, and I needed to pick her up. She was 6 months old (edit: My wife points out she must have been at least a year old, probably 2 if my son was 6. I didn't take notes at the time). I brought her home, and expected my wife to pick up my son that day. Well 6:00 came, and I got a phone call from the after school program, telling me that no one had picked up Raymond. "No problem. I'm here, just send him home." They refused. I reminded them that they had written permission so he could walk home, and also that I could watch from my window to see him once he got to the edge of the schoolyard, but that my daughter was sick and I wasn't going to take her out in the cold, nor was I going to leave her home alone so I could go pick up Raymond.
They refused to send him home, and demanded that I come pick him up. I told them that I wouldn't, that my wife was supposed to pick him up, but must be running late. I told them again that they should send him home, and they said they would wait for my wife. A few minutes later they called back, saying that I would have to come pick him up because they wouldn't wait any longer. I told them to send him home. They hung up and called the YWCA, which ran the program. They called back in tears to tell me that the person at the YWCA had told them that since they had written instructions, and a verbal order to send him home, that they would have to send him home. They said this as if I should be shocked.
I said "Great. I'll be right here."
Some time later I heard a car pull up, and heard heavy footsteps on the front porch. The woman had driven him from the school and escorted him up the driveway.
The next day I picked him up at school at about 5:45, and the woman started to explain to me how dangerous it was, because someone could have been hiding in the bushes and molested him. I told her that statistically, the most likely person to molest a child is a parent, followed by day care workers.
***************
We moved into our own house when my son was in 5th grade. He went to daycare that year, but in 6th grade he came home to an empty house (he was 11). My daughter started coming home on the bus when she was 9 or 10, and my son watched her most days (he was 13 or 14), except that some days he stayed after school and she was on her own.
But before she started coming home on her own, she decided to walk to school. I dunno, she must have been about 8, and it's about a half mile to school. I was walking twice that far to school at that age.
Well, she was walking to school one day, and a neighbor is driving her kids to the same school. She sees my daughter walking, stops by the side of the road, forces her into her car and takes her to the school principal, and tells the principal that she found her walking to school. We got a call from the principal saying they have a policy that students must take the bus or be dropped off. We told her that if that woman forces our daughter into her car again we'd have her arrested for kidnapping. Then we told our daughter to walk to school through the woods so she came into the school through the playground, and didn't walk along the road. The school people never noticed her coming in that way, and she walked when she wanted to.
I look at my own kids, and compare them with their friends, and at my students, and I'm glad I taught my children to be self sufficient. In general, kids today have no sense of independence. My students can't complete a simple assignment without demanding help. I never see kids get together to play ball in an empty lot, they have to be in organized sports or they don't play.
Both my kids have been on the honor roll every marking period their whole lives. My son is an Eagle Scout. He's held a job since he was 15. My daughter has been been "working" date nights with my wife at her gymnastics since she was 12. She's now 15 and plans to get a job this summer where she will spend two weeks at a dance camp in another state, where she will be in charge of supervising younger kids while their parents dance till midnight.
I agree with KoM here about the historical roll of kids taking care of their siblings. And Rivka, doesn't a boy become a man at 13 years of age? That's not just a Jewish tradition, it was typical of all cultures for children to take some form of apprenticeship at about that age. It's a rite of passage into manhood.
In fact, I think that's the major problem with our educational system. Kids at 12 or 13 are constantly complaining that the stuff they learn in school is abstract and arbitrary. Historically, they were learning a trade, which was concrete and relevant. I think middle school should be more oriented toward vocational training, rather than "preparation for high school."
quote:I get that eventually they need to learn to be on their own and have responsiblity, but surely 15 and 16 is young enough to start learning that.
15 OR 16 IS WAY TOO LATE! Growing up should be a gradual process of letting go in small ways. Gradually give the kid more responsibility and freedom so that they're ready to BE an adult by the time they ARE an adult. You can't start the process at 15 or 16 and expect to have a well adjusted 18 year old.
[ April 30, 2006, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Arnold ]
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Glenn, I not only agree with you on having your kids walking to/from school (given the distances and ages you gave), I applaud your ingenuity in getting around bureaucracy.
However. There is a really, really big difference between a 10-12 year old being home alone for an hour or so, and having that same child supervise several younger siblings. Neh?
My girls (ages 12 and 6) walk to their grandparents' after school. Some days there's someone there; some days not. And that's fine. But I am very hesitant to let them do the same thing this summer after camp, because my son (age 9, who attends a different school than the girls, but will be at the same camp) has a history of getting into a ridiculous amount of trouble when left unsupervised.
If someone who doesn't know my kids (well!) were to tell me that my girls should not be left unattended for an hour or two, I would roll my eyes and ignore them. But I would have the same reaction if someone told me that I should leave my son with them.
Same goes if anyone (*cough*KOM*cough*) made a blanket statement about what age kids should be able to be alone, and/or supervise younger siblings. So while I agree with Tres that making it illegal to leave a child under age 14 alone with a younger child is ridiculous (it's 12 in this state, and I think that's at least more reasonable), I also agree that there are many 12 and 13 year olds who have no business babysitting -- and many who do.
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Sounds like we're in agreement. I was responding to your question about parents advocating less need for supervision, and yes, I think Americans in general are overprotective, so I agree with KoM in that regard.
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