posted
You often hear that Islam recognizes Christianity and the Christian God as the same as there own, so where is the source of all this tension?
If the revelations of Mohammed are those of a just and enlightened society where is the problem with merging these two great religious masses?
As I see it the first and greatest issue on the Christian side is the down grading of Christ from the Son and Divine figure of God to the status of "just one of the guys” further his message of peace and mercy is negated in the first Sura with the new injunction harkening back to the Old Testament "The lives of Your Enemies I give you." An order to mayhem and vengeance as an opening sally is not going to sit well with the New Testament.
"Putting other Gods with God" a sin punishable by Hell and all its discomforts and can mean anything from Pantheism to nominating Saints.
Further any revision of religious views undertaken in modern times has invariable recognized the equality of men and women, so any modern attempt at reconciliation between the two by updating both is going to run straight into the misogyny of the Arab male.
I therefore conclude that Islam will not be able to find common ground in the long run with the so called other "Great Religions" it may pretend or find short range common ground to meet interim goals but ultimately it cannot be expected at any time to share amicable peace in a world where it is able to achieve a parity of power with nations of Christian Faith or the Jewish State.
posted
The official Catholic Church would not agree:
quote: The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
posted
"Incompatible" in the sense of "cannot be reconciled into one religion" is not the same as incompatible in the sense of "cannot coexist peaceably."
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posted
I agree with that, dkw. Just because we may or will never have a 'world religion' (what a boring world that would be) doesn't mean we can all learn to "coexist peacefully" as dkw says.
Tying this in with the egotheism thread, it may be possible to find links between the various (obviously similar) religions of the world through those who have personalised their beliefs and fill in the "grey area" in the gulf between theologies.
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posted
Um. The Catholic Church's stance is a fine and admirable thing, but, alas, it takes two to make a peace, but only one to make a quarrel. Now, there are certainly peaceable parts of Islam. The question is, will they develop into a powerful mainstream as has happened in Christianity? And here I'd like to note, just because not everyone straps on bombs doesn't mean that this is a completely fringe movement. Plenty of people rioted in the streets over the cartoons; many others expressed their sympathy for that view. I think it safe to say that even mainstream Islam is still a pretty violent thing, even if the actual suicide bombers are a small minority.
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quote: The Catholic Church's stance is a fine and admirable thing, but, alas, it takes two to make a peace, but only one to make a quarrel.
I agree. The original post seemed to ask the question from both sides. I answered from the only side about which I know enough to answer.
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posted
I think it depends on what you mean by incompatible. Can they live together in peace and harmony, well the potential exists, but I do not if it is in fact realistic for several reasons.
Can a person believe both religions simutaneously, IMO I just think thats impossible without destroying both religions.
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quote:we may or will never have a 'world religion' (what a boring world that would be)
I think that human beings can find plenty of aspects to be different in without having to be of different religions.
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posted
The Sufi Order, led in America by the son of Pir Vilayt Inayt Kahn (sp?), a kind of 'Kights Templar' of Islam has been holding 'universal worship', where all the prophets, saints and masters are equally worshipped would be one way in which Christianity and Islam can be the brothers they were supposed to be from the onset.
Islam's intolerant views and Chirstianity's intolerant views are just that: intolerance. A religion of tolerance is the only alternative, be it, Gnostic Chirstianism, Sufiism, Budhism or.. quite frankly, Paganism.
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quote:Originally posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk: The Sufi Order, led in America by the son of Pir Vilayt Inayt Kahn (sp?), a kind of 'Kights Templar' of Islam has been holding 'universal worship', where all the prophets, saints and masters are equally worshipped would be one way in which Christianity and Islam can be the brothers they were supposed to be from the onset.
Islam's intolerant views and Chirstianity's intolerant views are just that: intolerance. A religion of tolerance is the only alternative, be it, Gnostic Chirstianism, Sufiism, Budhism or.. quite frankly, Paganism.
You can disagree with the conlusions others make, without being "intolerant." We dont all have to be universalists or Bahai in order to be labled "Tolerant."
I mean shoot if I jump to the opposite end of the spectrum, I could believe that by killing everyone I would give them the opportunity to be taught by my God the true religion, and therefore killing them was an act of love. Or heck Ill make it even better.
Everyone's beliefs are righteous its this crazy earth filled with disease and natural disasters that makes people hate each other. Kill everyone and we can all live in paradise together.
Sorry I guess the ideas are not exactly the same, but your version of tolerance just doesn't work for me.
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posted
In the Sci Fi "Classic Mote in God's Eye" there is a race that cleverly conceales its unwillingness to control its population, its Caste of Masters desperately bent on just that (Mastery), its need for control and expansion into all available space, and its contempt for those not of its race. They did this in the hope that the generosity of mankind would trip itself into the folly of trust...
Caught in the web of their own lies they changed to a different plan, a desperate search for a way to help mankind be safe from them so they could at least escape the narrow confines of their very taxed and poor world.
Is there a way for Islam to be 'made safe' for Europe, India and the Americas? Democracy cannot protect Europe if the Muslim Demographic holds, they lay stipulation after stipulation on the Turks to create a Europeanized Islamic State to be a buffer and it seems to be having some success, but what if Turkey falls to the fundamentalists as well?
America is trying to make Iraq and Afghanistan safe but in the midst of this Iran lies and rants and exaggerates its capabilities to win the prestige it hungers for to gain the role of Moral Flagship for Islam, and what is its cause? The destruction of the Jewish State!
Must Islam like the Moties be bottled up inside its resource poor world in self inflicted poverty to protect us or will we just let the Jews be destroyed, Europe fall to its folly and India die in Holocaust?
I wish there were some way to reconcile their scripture with ours, I really do.
posted
A part of the world which includes 90% of its oil reserves is perhaps not precisely 'resource poor'. I do not think the Moslems would suffer as badly as the US, if such a bloackade were implemented. After all, they are already poor, the leaders excepted.
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posted
No amount of oil can be made into top-soil, We would pay more for oil in the short run and then places like Illinois and Mexico and Utah would start pumping at a profit boosting local economies and the worth of various alternatives to oil would make overcoming the barriers to entry into the production of electric and alternative fuel cars profitable and we would all gain in the long run.
Just as staying pu--y whipped requires a steady and occasional shot of a--, keeping us addicted to cheap oil requires that it stay below a certain cost. Breaking that addiction can only help us in the long run so we win regardless.
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Q: How many threads can BC start in a 24-hour period? A: Too many
Haven't you noticed that BC doesn't actually read the comments in his threads? He's just posting a series of prepared opinions. I'd be surpised if he actually read what anyone had to say about them.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I say we chuck em both and just go with world atheism.
On a more serious note I believe they can of course live together peaceably. I don't even think the current battles are really a Christian vs Islam battle. That's part of it, but it seems like there's a lot more going on here.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I was thinking the other day, always a dangerous thing. As I pondered the nature of the Bible, it occurred to me that it could all be fiction. Most of it was written hundreds of years after the fact. The only reason we accept it as fact is because our churches tell us that it was written by 'Dininely Inspired Men'. Well, that settles that, God inspired them, so to question them is to question God. Invoking the name of God is always a good way to stop unsettling questions and unprofitable lines of discussion.
But does it matter that it might be fiction?
Off on a seeming tangent; we all remember the story of Moses leading his people out of Egypt. You know the grand epic story of so many movies; parting of the Rea Sea and all that. But how many of you have read the story of Moses bringing his people out of the desert. It was a cruel, bloody, merciless, unconscionable action. Everyone was killed as they went from village to village; men, women, children, livestock. In the few villages where they simply couldn't kill all the people, they were merciful enough to allow them to live as dispossesed foriegners amoung them.
So, if I trust in the absolute truth of the Bible, should I emulate that behavior? If I have nothing, can I use that example to justify going to a rich man's house, killing his family, seizing is fortunes, and taking his property? I think not.
Why? Because it goes against the underlying priniples of the general Bible, general Christianity, and standard societal values of right and wrong.
Now back on track. Let us assume for a moment that the Bible is pure fiction; does that matter? I say NO. Harry Potter is pure fiction, Ender and Shadow Series are pure fiction, and many others, yet these works of fiction have underlying truths that are universal. We see and know an epic heroes journey when we see one. We understand the underlying value of right in the decisions of these fictional heroes. We learn from them, we grow from them, we are better because of them.
So, how does this apply to Islam? Someone said that Islam was not morally evolved. We Christians know that Slavery is wrong, even thought it may seem to be endorsed by the Bible. In the Bible, punishments were frequently harsh, brutal, and sadistic. In an isolated primitive frontier society, that may have had some value, but today we see that that is wrong, we have morally evolved. We do not live by the standards of a primitive world 2,000 to 3,000 years long gone.
Islam will never join the great religions of the world until it becomes morally evolved, until it places more emphasis on the truth of undelying principles than on ridgid adherence to doctrine and actions defined and created for ancient civilzations that have long fade from the earth.
The truth is not in the Edicts, Orders, and Laws of an ancient book, but in the broader and greater and UNIVERSAL principles of right and wrong, in the unquestionable truths that our/their Holy Text promote.
When Islam puts it faith in the universal principles of turth rather than the superficial mandates, then it will morally evolve. Then justice will be just, truth will be true, and the faithful will find there own way, with God's guidance, to the true faith.
Until then the extreme factions of Islam will remain the unreasonable godless barbarians that they are.
The extreme faction of Islam are not the faithful, but the faithless. When they put their faith in the wisdom of God rather than the brutality of men, then there is some hope. The Muslim extremest use Islam as the excuse for their actions. They full indent to seize and control the power in their worlds; heaven and God be damned. It is corruption in the extreme, and the call to God and Faith are merely the opium to placate and control the masses. Notice the very few of the extremist Muslim leaders live the ridged life they try to force on their followers once they have actually seized power.
When extremist Islam see that truth and principles outweigh ancient rules, then there will be some hope for Islam to take the world stage as a true and great religion.
posted
What if after a terrible holocaust caused by really extreme bean burritos and various narcotics, the only book left on earth is Ender's Game. It would become the new Bible!
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quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: ... further his message of peace and mercy is negated in the first Sura with the new injunction harkening back to the Old Testament "The lives of Your Enemies I give you." [/b] An order to mayhem and vengeance as an opening sally is not going to sit well with the New Testament.
quote:(complete first Sura of the Koran) Sura 1:1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Who is the author of the Quran? Is Allah kind and merciful? 1:2 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, 1:3 The Beneficent, the Merciful. 1:4 Master of the Day of Judgment, 1:5 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. 1:6 Show us the straight path, 1:7 The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
What you claim is in the first Sura is not there. An egregious and obvious error (or lie), that is easily checked on, as an opening sally is not going to sit well with rational folk. Also, what's wrong with harkening back to Old Testement blood and wrath anyway? What are you, a Marcionite? Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
"Whatever Scriptures we take away we replace with one that is better..."
"O Believers Retaliation for bloodshedding is prescribed to you, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman...
This is a relaxation from the Lord and a Mercy, for him that shall trasgress a sore punishment, but in this Law of Retaliation is your security for life."
Seems pretty clear there are many places it shows up, but that is to be expected in a book with ten things to say and five hundred pages to fill...
posted
True. But you said it was in the first sura, "as an opening sally." That is obviously not true, BC.
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