posted
Some of my online acquaintences are telling me they know the "truth" about Mormons now, thanks to Penn & Teller's expletive-titled cable program.
What exactly did they say? If anyone's seen the episode in question?
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think the episode was about Mormons per se. It was about the Boy Scouts, and how heavily Mormons influence many of the stances of the Boy Scouts of America.
Don't have cable, though, so I haven't seen the episode yet.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Penn and Teller are generally very fair with their liberally applied hurangings. LDS doesn't get much more than ANY group that P and T talk about.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm inquiring as to what was said. I haven't made a judgement about it being "fair" or "unfair" yet, though really, both terms are meaningless these days.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The only statement they made that I am aware of is that the LDS fund more than 60% of the scouts budget and there for force their agenda onto them. But that is just the intake I get from all the information on the web. All second hand mind you.
Posts: 224 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I call for a moratorium on the phrase "Forcing the ____ agenda!" ever being used again. For anything or anybody.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Especially in conjunction with regards to a "forcee" organization VOLUNTARILY deciding to take money from another organization.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Depends on how you look at it I guess. If my boss said, "I'm going to cut your salary in half unless you start attending my church." it's true, that I could quit my job and find a new one, but if I want to keep my job, I'm forced to do as she says.
I wouldn't use "accepting" as any more accurate than "forcing."
Maybe we need a scale, depending on how much money they contribute, we can say how much influence they have.
0-10% - Mentioning the agenda 11-25% - Suggesting the agenda 26-50% - Influencing the agenda 51-70% - Strongly influencing the agenda 71-90% - Dictating the agenda to your personal secretary 91-100% - I AM THE LAW!
I think we can all agree on that.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Depends on how you look at it I guess. If my boss said, "I'm going to cut your salary in half unless you start attending my church." it's true, that I could quit my job and find a new one, but if I want to keep my job, I'm forced to do as she says.
That WOULD be forcing. The payment is not linked to the underlying agreement. In the BSA case, an organization aimed at moral education which intentionally establishes ties to religious organizations is putting those issues in play.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've thought for a long time that the Church should get out of scouting, anyway, because it's just a weird alliance to me. I mean, we've got our own program for young women that is focused very specifically on Mormon doctrines and ideals, and on the practical realities of being a Mormon woman (or so I'm told, not having gone through the program) ... and then we have scouting, which teaches Mormon young men how to pitch tents and tie knots. There's a disconnect there that bugs me. I personally think that the Church could actually run a much better and more appropriate program for young men if they abandoned scouting, and then conspiracy theorists could go somewhere else Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
Plus, I always thought the Scouts were kinda weird...all that secret handshaking and oaths and such. Creepy.
Posts: 1068 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Boy Scouts can be a valuable experience for boys. It teaches teamwork, leadership, self-reliance, honesty, hard work, and a number of other valuable lessons.
The tents and pocket knives and knots are just a bonus.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: I call for a moratorium on the phrase "Forcing the ____ agenda!" ever being used again. For anything or anybody.
You just trying to force the reasonableness agenda on everybody.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Girl Scouts can be valuable for girls. I too don't quite understand the alliance between BSA and the Church, but hey.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Obviously, the Church is preparing for the day when they raise the banner of rebellion and become the State of Deseret. The Boy Scouts, after all, are well known to be a fascist organisation that teaches boys to be military killing machines. (Well, this was actually the original intention, of not in those words.) Besides, where else can a boy learn how to barbecue babies? Even Mormons get tired of eating baby stew and fried baby all the time.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
I think the Boy Scouts is stupid. I was a scout and went through the program. Of course camping and all that is fun. But the moral goals of scouting is a notch below our very own Young Men organization's moral goals and I think we cheat ourselves by putting such an emphesis on the "worldly" goals. It is like target practice and never hitting the bulls-eye. Dang close, but never dead.
I figure the only reason the leaders pushed it was because it got the boys ready for the working world at a time when the majority of church members were poor and struggling. And I figure it continues to exist because it is much more interesting than home teaching and most adult men don't know of a better way to bridge the generation gap with the youth.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have had excellent experiences in scouting, both as a scout and as a leader. I glad the program is around, and I hope it stays.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
My son was in scouts for a while, mainly because he liked hanging out with the guys and having fun. He left when he had a new leader that lectured the boys that the Boy Scouts is not about hanging out with the guys and having fun -- it is about serious work, and you will only get out of it what you put into it, and if you are serious about earning badges and moving up through the ranks then this is the place for you. If all you care about is fun and games and hanging out with your friends, then maybe you should find somewhere else to do that.
My son found somewhere else to do that, with my full support.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was in the scouts from the time I was 11 to about 15. I made Star rank then. My dad was really into "my son will be an Eagle Scout" though, and so he had a rule that I had to have the Eagle rank or I couldn't get my driver's license.
At 16, I was still Star rank. I'd taken drivers' ed, but wasn't worried about anything more. I could get anywhere in town I needed to on my bike, wasn't interested in dating anyone, and if I was going somewhere with friends one of them could drive.
My parents wanted me to drive, though. Made their lives easier if I could shuttle my 2 little sisters around. So a compromise was reached. . . I only need to obtain the Life rank to get the license. And since I was within 2 merit badges of that. . . no biggie.
2 years later I was approaching 18. Dad was still on his "My son WILL be an Eagle Scout!!!!" kick, and I actually got the rest of the badges needed, ended up doing 2 service projects, and turning my application for rank advancement in 2 days before my 18th birthday.
In the Board of Review with the local scout commitee, one of the really gung-ho "I love scouting!!!" men made a statement that Scouting had given me so much, then asked what I was going to give back to scouting.
I told him that I didn't feel like scouting had done anything for me, that I was only there because my father couldn't stand the idea of his son not being an Eagle Scout, and that I planned to never have anything to do with scouting ever again.
The "gung ho" guy wasn't really happy about it, but the others convinced him that my honesty in the face of pressure to tell them what they wanted to hear meant that I had actually developed the strength of character that scouting was supposed to help mold in me. I was awarded the Eagle rank.
And now, 15 years later. . . I still don't care.
Posts: 1323 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
And anyone who felt like scouting was about knot-tying and camping doesn't understand the program or had a leader who didn't understand the program.
I made my first movie as a Scout.
I first learned marketing as a scout, principles I still use in business today.
I did a lot of my first public magic performances as a scout. My Eagle project was doing magic with a bunch of other guys at local children's hospitals and children's wards.
Most of our coolest "campouts" involved abandoned mines or bodies of water or cycling to the beach.
And there were oh, so many guns.
I had a whole lot of fun as a scout. Yeah, I learned some knots. I can still do a one-handed bowline. But there was so much more to it than that.
The non-required merit badges aren't nearly so much about "skills" as they are about learning about potential interests, to discover whether you like things.
I'm sincerely sorry for anyone who was in a bad program. You missed out.
That said, I still get upset with Bishoprics who think the whole emphasis should be on scouting. I was called to be Young Men's president in a ward once where I asked them for the Priesthood manuals for six months and they never gave them to me. Instead, they'd keep giving me new scouting materials and say I was "Neglecting the program." As if Scouting was the program.
Some people do miss the real point.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wish the young women could have done boy scouts. The Young Men always got to go on the camping trips, the horsebackriding treks, the skeet shooting, the jamborees, etc. etc. et all. Girls got to "plan meals for a month". Yeah, great program.
I'm just angsty over my experience in YW.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had some really good experiences with a mixed-gender Methodist Exporer team (ages 16 and 17).
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just want an old boy scout handbook They have all sorts of useful information there, like how to take care of people who are in shock.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I explored some co-ed Methodists at around the same age, Porter, and also had good experiences.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I left scouting because of the moral agenda. I'm fine with a program meant to teach morals--all right, that's good for people to have. But in my scout troop, though they were good people, it was "this is the moral system" and that's it. No discussion. No alternate points of view. This is right, this is wrong, and it's 'cause we say so. Not even explanation, beyond saying that the Bible says so, which is usually a bit of a stretch for a lot of moral arguments. You need more support.
I did love camping and doing merit badges. I miss that.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had a relatively unusual experience in scouts. I enjoyed it thoroughly from the time I was 12 until I was 14. I got Star rank and was within a couple badges of Life before my 14th birthday. Then I just lost interest. I had already gotten all the badges that interested me and the rest was just drudgery to me. I was pressured by the young men's leadership to continue working towards my Eagle, but I really didn't put anything into it outside of our weekly meetings. Then, about the time I turned 16, all of the other scouts decided they were sick of their parents leaning on them to get eagles (which none of us actually wanted anymore), so they started rebelling. After my father realized what was going on, he just asked me if I wanted my Eagle. I told him I didn't, and he said okay. That made me pretty happy because he was very serious about getting my brother to get his Eagle. So I never spent any more time working on it. In the end, the scouts who rebelled ended up getting their Eagles anyway. I didn't, simply because I didn't want it and my father was okay with that. I haven't missed it either. One of the main reasons people gave for getting the Eagle was that it would make it easier for us to get a job later on. I haven't found it difficult to get a job in over 4 years, simply because I'm a skilled worker. Instead of working on my Eagle, I spent my time focusing on computers. So it's actually better that I didn't get the darned thing.
I think the scouts program in my ward more or less shut itself down after that, since none of the young men wanted to work on it (most just stopped going to church altogether), and it was about 2 or 3 years before there was another Eagle rewarded in my ward.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
To touch on the main topic, I discovered that I had this On-Demand so I watched it. The main point of the show (which wasn't too funny unless you enjoy Pen swearing) was that it was "Bull****!" that the BSA was allowed to discriminate against gays and athiests while still obtaining public funding/support. Throw in a bunch of your normal mormon jokes and random swearing at mormons. Then again, there was random swearing at everything.
Posts: 254 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had a fairly good experience in scouts up to a few weeks before my 18th birthday. I had skipped about 4 years between 12 and 16, so I was fairly late getting my ealge. In fact, my eagle application was turned down because I hadn't been a 1st or 2nd class long enough. My leader had advanced me too fast.
That wasn't the bad part though. The bad part was what happened afterwards. All of a sudden I learned what morals meant to people. One leader wanted to forge all of my documents and resubmit them so that it worked out. Other leaders just cast a lost look at me like I was a failure because I had been turned away by the great council.
So began my real-life education that the adults I looked up to were hypocrites, so it wasn't so bad really because it is a lesson I had to learn eventually and it is even more fitting that I learned it at 18, the time to become a man.
But that is really the worst story of the whole thing. Besides that, it was a lot of fun and I certainly learned a lot. It isn't a bad organization.
But my point that for the Mormon church scouting is second best. The best is that young mens program based on the priesthood. When I was in the ym's presidency once, I tried to really emphasize the ym's program and met similar resistance as docmagik. Scouting was the ym's program, not the priesthood. Clearly the manuals and the church leaders don't say so, but the local people were with their actions. Oh well.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Also, about the co-ed thing. Of all my youth activities, the combined ym & yw activities were the funnest, stick out in my memory, and are more important to me than any of my scouting memories.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I just want an old boy scout handbook They have all sorts of useful information there, like how to take care of people who are in shock.
Lay them down, elevate the feet, keep them warm, and call 911.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:That eagle scout card can help get out of speeding tickets, you know.
Ya know, it would never even occur to me to TRY to get out of a speeding ticket, much less to use my Eagle rank as the reason why it should be okay for me to speed.
Posts: 1323 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Marriott where I stayed in Vancouver, WA had Showtime, and they showed that episode over and over. Overall I quite liked the Penn and Teller B.S. show and I found myself agreeing with them on many of their topics. I especially enjoyed the program which discussed why no progress has been made on rebuilding Ground Zero.
Anyway, the Boy Scout episode was a hoot except for the part in which the Mormon Church was mentioned and Penn called President Monson an eff-er.
They interviewed an ex-Scoutmaster who was ousted for being gay, and they had him conduct an exercise in the woods in which straight scouts faced off against three gay boys in performing various scouting skills. The gay boys smoked them! I didn't quite follow their argument that gay boys can have scouting skills and should therefore be allowed into Scouting.
They also interviewed an extemely wholesome-looking Eagle Scout, who was probably also a Mormon, but they didn't say. Only Donny and Marie are that clean. He was lame, and I was embarrased for him.
My take on the whole gays-and-scouting thing is that if gay boys and leaders would just keep quiet about sex, which has nothing to do with tying knots or performing first aid, they ought to be allowed to rack up as many merit badges as they please.
But many can't seem to keep quiet and put their sexuality on the back burner for even one short weekend, and no straight parent is going to send their kid off to a camp where boys are sneaking off into the woods two-by-two. And the mental image of a Scout leader having sex with another man probably isn't too appealing to parents who want their boys to grow up straight.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Magson: Ya know, it would never even occur to me to TRY to get out of a speeding ticket, much less to use my Eagle rank as the reason why it should be okay for me to speed.
Spoken like a true Eagle Scout.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
