posted
Wow, that's scary. I almost went to Yosemite over Memorial Day weekend, but Tioga pass was still covered in 6 ft of snow and it takes too much time to go around the long way. Now I either have to wait for the snow to melt, the mountain to be moved, or go the long long long way around Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Relating to the topic, I've been bothered for some time by a different kind of Christian littering.
This is a touchy subject, but within the last 5 or 10 years I've seen a new "tradition" cropping up of leaving mementos at the scene of a fatal crash along the highway. The centerpiece to these mementos is always some kind of cross, often made of plastic. This is then surrounded by plastic flowers and ribbons, etc.
There used to be one that I passed on the way to work, and someone nailed a sign on the tree above it. I don't remember what the sign said. In fact, I'm not sure I ever figured out what the sign said because it was right on a nasty downhill curve, where I needed to pay attantion to the road. I found the sign very distracting, because I wanted to read it, but couldn't look at it long enough to read the words, but it definitely had a Christian message of some sort.
I understand the sentiment. Especially the first time I saw one, it pointed out how dangerous the intersection was. But now I see them all over the place, and they've become more garish, and I've never seen one get cleaned up. They just stay there until the pieces get dirty and they get spread around by the wind. Eventually it's just indistinguishable from litter.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Shrines don't seem all that Christian to me, anyways.
Personally, I'd limit the placement to one small marker with one small flower. I don't think a 2ft cross with the deceased's name is a problem, especially with all of the "new homes from the 250s this way" signs that are all over the place.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Shrines bother me too, because if you're Christian, then your belief states that person is no longer there - their soul has moved on and what possible need is there to venerate the place where they died?
"Let the dead bury the dead" and all that and move on with your life. I'm not even all that big on visiting cemeteries. I've been once to my grandfather's grave, and honestly, it wasn't that meaningful to me - he's not there.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I've always thought about the roadside crosses as a "you need to be careful here, someone wasn't" marker. In our area several speedlimits have been changed after enough protest at a crash site. I know that my friends slow down when we see a cross.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I traveled for miles and miles up and down the Snake River Valley in Southern Utah to collect high-resolution images of the native American pictographic art.
The worst vandalism was nearly always either very early 1900's vandalism, or Christian vandalism.
The latter was always obviously by crazy people, though.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Shrines bother me too, because if you're Christian, then your belief states that person is no longer there - their soul has moved on and what possible need is there to venerate the place where they died?
I disagree about the appropriateness of roadside memorials from a Christian perspective (I'm not commenting on safety issues). The nature of the objection makes it clear to me that you don't have a full understanding of what goes on at such sites.
It is entirely possible to have an experience at a gravesite or other form of memorial without losing site of the fact that the person has moved on. We are physical creatures, and physical surroundings matter to us in many ways.
I think the loss of the lesser sacred - from nature, from historical sites (whether collectively recognized like Manassas or personal as a crash memorial) is a sad loss for mankind.
We go back millennia, and a connection to that continuous history is a powerful thing. A site where something life-changing for our predecessors occurred can cause us to contemplate the continuity and interconnectedness of all humanity. A natural site such as a waterfall that can evoke a contemplation of the enormous intricacy of our world and our place in it can be, to use Coleridge's word, sublime. There's no necessity to think the ghost of the people who fought at Manassas still walk the battlefield to understand why this land is set aside.
Similarly, there's no need to think the souls of the departed are not with God to achieve real good from a memorial where an accident occurred.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I think shrines and memorials are like funerals - they are not for the dead, they are for the living. I tend to be rather forgiving of honest impulses - I doubt people leave things at shrines for trendy or selfish reasons. It's usually a tender and sensitive subject - if it helps someone, I'd hate to condemn them for it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think shrines and memorials are like funerals - they are not for the dead, they are for the living. I tend to be rather forgiving of honest impulses - I doubt people leave things at shrines for trendy or selfish reasons. It's usually a tender and sensitive subject - if it helps someone, I'd hate to condemn them for it.
more or less sums up how I feel. Memorials and Shrines are for the living, its when we think the being is still there that I think people cross the line into error.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
While I'd be annoyed with anyone littering in a National Park, it does seem strange to single out Christians. Kids and trashy teenagers, in my experience, are far more experienced in vandalism.
Surely these aren't the only examples you've found in the park. Why name Christians specifically? Fundamentalists have an easy enough time working up a persecution complex without our help.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Lalo, the litter in question was Christian stickers on signs and Christian coins dropped on the ground. That is why Christian vandals were singled out. Of course other vandalism occurs but this was strategically placed litter with the purpose of spreading the message of Christ. It doesn't seem effective though and I guess that is more what this thread is about.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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