quote:The question is, will this amendment help “to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society...”
Apparently you're allowed to say "no," as long as you don't say that the church shouldn't tell you the answer is "yes."
You're allowed to say whatever you want, Tom. Brother Nielsen's membership in the church is not at stake in this issue (so far as I can tell). His position as an informal representative of the church is. There's a difference.
<edit>
quote:Originally posted by Scott RBYU teachers and students (thank God, and I mean that) are NOT viewed as itty-bitty missionaries.
I think students and professors are both viewed as missionaries by church and school leadership. Hence the dress code, dress and grooming standards, honor code and more. I heard university administrators multiple times say that as a BYU student I had a responsibility to represent the church.</edit>
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would also like to point out that all students who attend BYU sign a "Code of Conduct". Students agree to act certain ways regardless of other opinions they hold. I'm not sure what there is for faculty but I'm sure there is something as well.
quote:I think that the principle of intellectual freedom should apply to academic statements made within the area of the professor's training and should not extend into general public advocacy on social issues...
Oddly, making the same statement in reverse will get you fired from BYU.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
That's not odd to me; it's consistent with what I wrote. Or, more logically, exemplifying the converse of that statement may get you fired from BYU.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I think students and professors are both viewed as missionaries by church and school leadership. Hence the dress code, dress and grooming standards, honor code and more. I heard university administrators multiple times say that as a BYU student I had a responsibility to represent the church.
Really? Then reference my comments above, regarding student athletes. BYU needs to be more consistent with disciplining misbehavior among its stars.
Really, I would not object at all-- I'd pay more to the BYU fund if necessary, if such a thing existed-- if they got rid of BYU's competitive sports programs entirely.
How's that for heresy?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by OlavMah: If I said, "Who are you to tell me how to vote? You think you've got some God given right or something? Well, you don't, and I wrote this article in the Tribune saying that." I'd get released. I mean... duh.
But we're not talking about a seminary. We're talking about a university.
-pH
For clarification, in LDS terminology, 'Seminary' isn't a post-secondary school for Professional Theological Training. It's a voluntary Church Educational System (CES) program in where high school students have the opportunity to attend a daily scripture study class, often times before their own regular/secular school starts way early in the morning. The intent is to give teens a constant and strong familiarity with the doctrines of the scriptures, and the texts of the scriptures themselves.
There is a 'sequel-program' for the Young Single Adult group called 'Institute of Religion'- these classes, however, can be taken for credit at BYU.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:BYU needs to be more consistent with disciplining misbehavior among its stars.
Really, I would not object at all-- I'd pay more to the BYU fund if necessary, if such a thing existed-- if they got rid of BYU's competitive sports programs entirely.
How's that for heresy?
I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You guys are linking the church too directly with BYU. While it is entirely possible for a member of the church hierarchy if he is high enough to request the removal of a professor (my own grandfather was a sociology professor with views that a certain apostle found offensive, and they requested that my grandfather be dismissed) still its ALSO VERY possible that a dean or member of the board of directors acting entirely alone did not like what professor Nielson was saying and requested that he be dismissed.
They do not have to get the OK from any church leadership in regards to which teachers they hire and fire.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:BYU needs to be more consistent with disciplining misbehavior among its stars.
Really, I would not object at all-- I'd pay more to the BYU fund if necessary, if such a thing existed-- if they got rid of BYU's competitive sports programs entirely.
How's that for heresy?
I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.
Hey, the three of us should form a lobby. Now we just need to find someone to back us financially...
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh you heretics, you! You can’t be seriously suggesting that we get rid of the only true and living sports. What are we gonna talk about in priesthood meeting if you do that? Posts: 631 | Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is a whole generation of boys who grew up wanting to be Steve Young, wanting to be as pure as Ty Detmer-- knowing more about his stats and prospects than they knew about the female clitoris--, and still get all of the girls like Jimmy Mac, and there is a generation of women who wanted Steve Young as a husband, Ty Detmer to introduce to their parents, and wanted to sneak off into a closet with Jimmy Mac.
Scott, you hope to take away these kid's dreams! You hope to dethrone football and replace it with what, lessons! That kind of talk doesn't belong in school, even if that school is in the WAC.
I think athletics has a place in college. I think athletics has a place in society. Even competition does.
That said, I'd prefer sports of a more classical nature-- running, jumping, swimming, for example-- reigned over big hit sports like football and baseball and basketball.
The human body is wondrous-- and I don't think the big three (Football, Baseball, and Basketball) can be played in today's environment and celebrate the body. No, they're a celebration of the game. And the game isn't that important.
That's what I believe right now.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
According that Wikipedia article, Jimmy Mac probably should've been tossed out of BYU. Or at the very least he was really ready to leave there...
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ummm fishing around the LDS site, this seems to spell it out clearly. THey aren't going to ever endorse a party but they do feel they have the authority to make statements on social issues
quote:This is exactly why I never, ever wanted to work for the church or for the Y or attend the Y. I don't like having my financial or academic stability tied to my religious activity.
That is so excellently stated, I'm saving it so I can refer to it again. Wise philosophy.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
I would hope that every professor at BYU, and every member of the Church "questions" LDS Church policy. "Questioning" something doesn't get you in trouble. "Opposing" or "Fighting" something very well might.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
But, if you go from questioning to reaching a conclusion opposite of the church, school, leadership, etc., are you not opposing them if you do anything but stay silent?
Granted, in this case the man could've acted with a little less hubris and certainly could've done things in a less confrontational and public manner.
But it all started when he reached an opposite conclusion.
From what you're saying, I get the impression that his only safe options are silence or leaving.
Having read the statement on Academic Freedom at BYU (esp the section on limitations thereof), that would seem to be the case.
As long as you are only "questioning" its okay. But if you contradict church doctrine, out you go.
I'm not saying that's wrong. And, in fact, this particular guy should've read the statement on academic freedom because he was in clear violation of it. It equates to a set of conditions for employment, and he violated them.
And out he goes.
I was a bit taken aback by the school equating their enforcement of LDS doctrine to be the same as other campuses banning hate speech, but hey, it's their money and their campus. They could set a rule that required everyone to swear the sky is green if they want to.
Ultimately, there's always a fuzzy area around codes of conduct at any institution of higher learning. The case we're talking about here isn't even close to one of the fuzzy areas. He went way outside the rules.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
If I had decided to earn a doctorate and go into academic life, I would have not sought employment at BYU.
However, at least They're pretty up front about their hiring practices and what's expected once you are hired.
I'm definitely not one of those anti-higher ed conservatives who go around yelling about prejudice and liberal group-think, but I have to admit that I have to wonder about the hiring practices of the institutions that I'm familiar with.
This Inside Higher Ed article sort of captures what I mean although I agree that it is a bit sloppy of a column. This response to the piece is fairly well-thought-out although I don't agree with all of the tactics Stinson espouses.
Ah, I just found the best writing in this area -- Mark Bauerlein's Chronicle of Higher Education opinion piece. Sorry for the all italics -- the version on the Chron's site is for subscribers only.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:After Nixon crushed McGovern in the 1972 election, the film critic Pauline Kael made a remark that has become a touchstone among conservatives. "I don't know how Richard Nixon could have won," she marveled. "I don't know anybody who voted for him." While the second sentence indicates the sheltered habitat of the Manhattan intellectual, the first signifies what social scientists call the False Consensus Effect. That effect occurs when people think that the collective opinion of their own group matches that of the larger population. If the members of a group reach a consensus and rarely encounter those who dispute it, they tend to believe that everybody thinks the same way.
...
The phenomenon that I have described is not so much a political matter as a social dynamic; any political position that dominates an institution without dissent deterioriates into smugness, complacency, and blindness. The solution is an intellectual climate in which the worst tendencies of group psychology are neutralized.
I've seen this work both ways. I've conciously employed it as a method of binding me closer to someone whom I thought might share my worldview.
Which I think is fascinating. Which makes me want to study it - as in, sociology. But the same article that makes me wish to study makes me wary of choosing that path. That's a large reason I didn't barrel on to grad school. My statement about not wanting to link my security and livelihood to my religion/beliefs does not only apply to church-owned organizations.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
You said that before and Belle agrees, but I still find that perspective deeply cowardly. It's as if your control of your security and livelihood is more important that the righteousness of your beliefs.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
Not a bit. Maybe a bit paranoid; it assumes that if she takes a job within the Church or at BYU, someday, someone with power is going to treat Kat's academic/religious/career views unfairly.
It's a practical point of view-- not one I share. Rather, I'd avoid working for the Church/BYU because they couldn't pay me enough money.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yep. Due to some sad experiences, I'm afraid of having my personal security tied to pleasing someone else with my beliefs. It wouldn't be that way if people didn't qualify how they respectfully they treat someone by how much that person is agreeing with them.
Don't you agree, Irami.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:It wouldn't be that way if people didn't qualify how they respectfully they treat someone by how much that person is agreeing with them.
I agree, but then your problem is with indiviudals, not with the church organization. Or maybe it's with the church for cultivating and promoting these kinds of individuals.
What this professor did was brave, and he is taking his lumps. The sale of souls for the whole world is completely voluntary and almost unanimous, and it's people like this guy who are the outliers. Maybe he gave a sense of dignity to a handful of gay mormons, maybe it was all in vain. Who knows, but whatever it was, it was the exact opposite of the fear living in the sentiment:
quote:This is exactly why I never, ever wanted to work for the church or for the Y or attend the Y. I don't like having my financial or academic stability tied to my religious activity.
It seems that there are a few different ways of selling your soul for worldly security, I just see your statement as a more elegant manner.
You can say that LDS Profs who agree with him but kept their mouth shut are a species of coward, but you can also say that everyone who pre-emptively chose not to put themselves in his situation out of fear is also a coward.
posted
You are an example of that kind of individual. I've never personally had a bad experience like that with the church. I have with you.
I think everyone is afraid of something and therefore avoid it. The fools tell themselves that they avoid experiences out of something else. What would be the benefit of pretending this trepidation didn't exist? I get to work for the church? I don't need the church for employment. I haven't lost anything by not wanting to work for it. The academic is different, though - there's a possibility that I'll want to change my mind there. When I do, I'm capable. I've braved and overcome much scarier things.
In other words, I'm not real concerned about your opinion of my integrity or bravery.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Don't judge people as cowards for not making themselves uncomfortable.
Cowardice is a strong character judgement, and I think you use it here without grace, discipline, or rigourous thought.
Bravery and cowardice both rely on necessity; there is no necessity for katharina to take a job with BYU/the Church. Nielsen saw a necessity to write the article he did. Though he may be brave, she is not a coward.
Without a feeling or fact of necessity, neither cowardice or bravery can be judged.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I tend to keep my personal life somewhat separate from my professional life as a general rule.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not sure how brave Nielsen's act was. He knew what the consequences would be. He knew who would defend him and embrace him and who wouldn't. It seems less to me like a personal act of bravery and more like a tactic.
Not that there's anything wrong with using tactics in the academic world. I totally would.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not really interested in judging character here; I'm classically apathetic.
However, knowing the consequences, and knowing your friends doesn't necessarily take away from the bravery of a given action.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe so, Scott. I'd have to think about it.
I do think, however, that speaking your mind in an academic context is a lot less brave than most other contexts -- no matter what university you work for.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
One ought to exam the effects of not diciplining a teacher who so vocally spoke against the established church position.
Had BYU done nothing that would in effect be condoning what he was doing. Lots of people probably wrote heads of BYU/Church asking why a professor at the church's university was in open defiance of the church. Or asking if the church was officially condoning professor Nielson's piece.
In not doing anything BYU and the Church could have done more harm then simply dismissing the teacher.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why would permitting academic freedom do harm? Is the assumption that all BYU profs speak for the school?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
BYU is special. Taking away that specialness would be a loss. I'd never go to BYU, but I don't want to deprive the world of its existence when other people do.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Why would permitting academic freedom do harm? Is the assumption that all BYU profs speak for the school?
Yes.
Many think that if the professor is allowed to teach at the school then his views are acceptable to school leaders (who often are also church leaders).
You should realize Tom that BYU is a VERY religious school. While liberal ideas are found there (to some extent) many of classes open and close with prayer. Scriptures are often used to critically examine the theories of science, and the works of biblical prophets and more modern day prophets are held up next to the works of Socrates, Plato, Mill, Kant, etc.
Evolution IS often taught in biology class (many parents of students are incensed about it, yet students are often introduced to the holes in some of the more popular theories of today.
Just trying to give you a description of the environment at BYU.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tom- Because the school is special. A major part of its academics is official church doctrine. Picture it like a Venn diagram. One circle contains academics. One circle contains religion. The the academics section not overlapping the religious section, academic freedom is encouraged. However, in the religious circle and its overlap with the academic circle, it better be in line with the religion paying for the school because the assumption is that in those areas the professor does represent the church.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
BYU's anxiogenic relationship to academic freedom and the academic world is a byproduct of a Church that is small, originally geographically centralized (still is, obviously, but less so today), and freshly assimilated into American culture (fresh = past 60 years or so).
A big part of that anxiogenicity (and sorry to use this word Jatraqueros, but it is spot on in this instance) is how .
Not only do some Mormons feel that BYU profs speak for the school (and should speak for the school), but some also feel that they speak for the LDS Church (granted their are gradations of perception here, but still...). This is complicated by the fact that in some instances, the Church does draw on BYU resources (as it should).
BYU suffers from its real (imo) mission (this 'specialness' that kat refers to) that is to create a group of people who are educated, intelligent and equipped to civilly (and this is an important part of it, imo) engage with American culture, government and business but are still devoted to the LDS Church -- not just doctrinally, but also culturally.
I say suffers -- I mean suffers in terms of its ability to interact with the rest of academia, the non-Mormon general public, and in many cases the Mormon general public (the amount of letters that get written by Mormons criticizing this and that person or act at BYU is astounding and although in many cases these things are shrugged off, the sheer volume and tone of them has to make at least some BYU administrators over-sensitive and more conservative than they should be).
On the other hand, BYU produces some amazing, accomplished, faithful yet not blind sheep graduates who from relationships there that are productive and valuable and benefit not only Mormons but society as a whole (even when it comes to art!).
This is why I'm solidly in the 'glad it exists but didn't go there and wouldn't work there and wish it would be a bit less parochial/provincial' camp.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:While liberal ideas are found there (to some extent)
Granted I didn't attend BYU, but my sense is that liberal ideas are found there to a great extent and that in all disciplines, most of the prevailing trends of a particular field are taught. After all, very few BYU professors have doctoral degrees that aren't from, say, the top 1/3 (and in humanities, it's more like the top 10%) programs in the country.
In addition, my understanding is that while Mormon experience is doctrine is brought into some classrooms it is either done briefly as a faculty members personal opinion or it is done in the context of the academic field. The once exception is religion courses, which are, naturally, religion courses i.e. more like what one would find at a seminary. But these are add ons to the general ed and major requirements.
Edit to add: Bao says "major part." Again, aside from religious courses, the sense I get is that with regular acadmic courses, it's not a major part. Not that it isn't an influence at all, but it's more similar to (and in many courses -- esp. outside of the social sciences and humanities -- less than) any programs where certain ideologies influence and are part of the curriculum (i.e. ethnic studies, social justice, women studies. LGBT studies, Jewish studies, etc.).
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Zalmoxis: In addition, my understanding is that while Mormon experience is doctrine is brought into some classrooms it is either done briefly as a faculty members personal opinion or it is done in the context of the academic field. The once exception is religion courses, which are, naturally, religion courses i.e. more like what one would find at a seminary. But these are add ons to the general ed and major requirements.
This is what the student ratings form asks of just about any class someone takes at BYU: Comparing this course with other university courses you have taken, please indicate an OVERALL rating for the following:
Course: DANCE 173R: Ethnic Dance-Polynesian Very Poor, Poor, Somewhat Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Exceptional
Instructor: Tuia, Kau'i M Very Poor Poor Somewhat Poor Fair Good Very Good Excellent Exceptional
Please respond to each of the following items regarding this course: DANCE 173R
I learned a great deal in this course.
Course materials and learning activities were effective in helping students learn.
This course was well organized.
Evaluations of students' work (e.g., exams, graded assignments and activities) were good measures of what students learned in the course.
Course grading procedures were fair.
This course helped me develop intellectual skills (such as critical thinking, analytical reasoning, integration of knowledge).
This course provided knowledge and experiences that helped strengthen my testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
For this course, about how many hours per week did you spend in class? (e.g. 2, 2.5)
What percentage of the time you spent in class was valuable to your learning?
For this course, about how many hours per week did you spend out of class (doing assignments, readings, etc.)? (e.g. 4, 4.5)
What percentage of the time you spent out of class was valuable to your learning (as opposed to just busy work)?
Please respond to each of the following statements regarding this instructor: Tuia, Kau'i M
The instructor:
Showed genuine interest in students and their learning.
Provided adequate opportunities for students to get help when they needed it.
Provided opportunities for students to become actively involved in the learning process.
Gave students prompt feedback on their work.
Provided students useful feedback on their work.
Responded respectfully to students' questions and viewpoints.
Was effective in explaining difficult concepts and ideas.
Appropriately brought Gospel insights and values into secular subjects.
Was spiritually inspiring insofar as the subject matter permitted.
This instructor and course contributed to the Mission and Aims of a BYU Education (i.e., Spiritually Strengthening, Intellectually Enlarging, Character Building, Leading to Lifelong Learning and Service).
--0--
It depends on what courses you might be taking, but religous and doctrinal ideas are brought into a great many classes. That's one of the reasons I really like BYU. Towards the end of my biology class the professor took an entire class period explaining why he can find truth in the theory of Evolution (in its complete form) and still believe in the power of Priesthood in his calling as a bishop. In my department we constantly quote Brigham Young because he was a huge fan of Theatre and the potential it has to show gospel principles in action.
Neilsen did this too, which is why I thought his class was so great.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
