For me, the most significant is that Buddhism centers around embracing the void, in the realization that the self is illusory, and acheiving the Nirvana state of no significant stimuli, while Taoism (or at least he school I follow) emphasizes the full expression of the self in finding and following one's own personal Tao.
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The Tao Te Ching is always a good place to start. There are many good translations available.
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Calvin: The difference are really pronounced depending on where you go. In places like China Taoism and Buddhism have taken advantage of Buddhism's adaptibility and fused them together.
I would really suggest you visit wikipedia or read a book to figure out the differences. Some differences I can offer you off the top of my head are
Taoism: meaning "The Way." Is concerned with finding ones path in life and following. It believes in a multitude of gods, goddesses, demons. Atunement to these dieties is important in establishing your own way, as these supernatural beings are believed to be able to empower the worshipper. The body is to be subjected by the spirit, and to those who do well happiness is their reward, whilst those who do ill suffer for eternity (often tormented and tortured by demons in horrific ways, if evil is the path one opts to walk).
Keep in mind that Taoism is a VERY subjective belief system. There is no pretence of uniformity amongst all adherents and nobody thinks there ought to be (at least from my experience.) Its highly adaptive and allows alot of elbow room for individual interpretation.
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My dad is Buddhist. What I like best about meditation/Buddism is the way it makes your body more...how do I put it? Stiller? My dad says he can hear his heart beating when he meditates. When I meditate (as I only do very rarely, sadly) I can almost hear how my mind is spinning around really really fast in endless random circles and it's almost impossible to slow it down.
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Just to be clear, what BB is describing is not actually what I believe. There are a lot of folk elements to Taoism, but I (and nearly all other people I know who consider themselves Taoists) are much more philosophically than deity oriented.
We had a thread on Taoism a little while back, that I think Enigmatic started. The search doesn't seem to be working too well today, but I'll see if I can find it by hand.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Just to be clear, what BB is describing is not actually what I believe. There are a lot of folk elements to Taoism, but I (and nearly all other people I know who consider themselves Taoists) are much more philosophically than deity oriented.
We had a thread on Taoism a little while back, that I think Enigmatic started. The search doesn't seem to be working too well today, but I'll see if I can find it by hand.
Note that I said Taoism is EXTREMELY subjective to the individual. There is not a uniformity of belief. But some of the "folk" aspects that I have described are in fact older than the "godless" versions of Taoism that appeal to westerners.
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A main point as I consider it is that it is VERY difficult to directly compare most eastern religions to western religions. By and large Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and even some such as Shinto and Hinduism while filling a lot of the same niches as western religions are vastly different in their very natures.
i.e. while I may not take huge issue with other western religions it wouldnt really make sense for me to claim to be both Catholic and Muslim, though it would be pretty normal for someone to claim to be Buddhist AND Taoist AND Confucianist, or just 1-2 of those etc...
They are largely open-ended philosophies with looser guidelines, texts, legends/mythologies that do not compare as closely with the fairly hard-and-fast western religions with definite documentation, "rigid" precepts, hierarchies etc.
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addendum: all that being said, as someone who nominally considers themselves Catholic, I can actually still identify rather closely with many of the precepts of some of these religion/philosophies (though not quite all in at least the most literal sense)
If you see the Buddha in the road you must kill him.
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Squick, the reason you can't find it is that it was his landmark, so it was moved to the archives. Here you go. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: Taoism: meaning "The Way." Is concerned with finding ones path in life and following. It believes in a multitude of gods, goddesses, demons. Atunement to these dieties is important in establishing your own way, as these supernatural beings are believed to be able to empower the worshipper. The body is to be subjected by the spirit, and to those who do well happiness is their reward, whilst those who do ill suffer for eternity (often tormented and tortured by demons in horrific ways, if evil is the path one opts to walk).
Keep in mind that Taoism is a VERY subjective belief system. There is no pretence of uniformity amongst all adherents and nobody thinks there ought to be (at least from my experience.) Its highly adaptive and allows alot of elbow room for individual interpretation.
To clarify part of what Squicky said: none of the bit in bold is actually in the Tao Te Ching. Later taoist writings expanded upon it to incorporate folk deities, creation stories, and other trappings more like religion than philosophy. I don't know about modern taoists in China, but I've never encountered any western taoists who believe in the "taoist deities" or most of the other additions after the Tao Te Ching itself.
Which emphasizes the second paragraph in the above quote, actually.
In comparison to Buddhism, it's important to note that there are different branches of Buddhism. Zen Buddhism is a blend of Buddhism and Taoism, but there are other types of Buddhism which have far less in common with Taoism. (And which I know far less about.)
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I'd never thought of Zen Buddhism as a blend of Taoism and Buddhism. Zen is a major form of Mahayana Buddhism, which means that it stresses both individual liberation and a commitment to help others gain freedom from suffering. There are two main schools of Zen Buddhism: Soto and Rinzai. The former focuses on meditation and the second on koans, stories meant to drive the mind toward enlightenment. It seems to me that most American Zen Buddhists are of the Soto persuasion.
What aspects of Zen Buddhism make it a blend of Taoism and other types of Buddhism? I don't really see the connection.
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Taoism is a hybrid of a Chinese word and Enlish suffix. It may be more useful to use what the Chinese use: Dao jiao and Dao jia.
Dao jiao would refer to the traditional folk religion. It includes as variety of gods, belief in ghosts, and incorporates the philosophies of Dao De Jing and combines them with folklore.
Dao jia would be the more philosophical aspects of the Dao De Jing, and is much more popular with Westerners for obvious reasons.
However, to say there aren't mystical/supernatural themes and parts of the Dao De Jing isn't quite accurate. They are there, Westerners just happen to ignore them since they aren't part of their culture.
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Taoism is a hybrid of a Chinese word and Enlish suffix. It may be more useful to use what the Chinese use: Dao jiao and Dao jia.
Dao jiao would refer to the traditional folk religion. It includes as variety of gods, belief in ghosts, and incorporates the philosophies of Dao De Jing and combines them with folklore.
Dao jia would be the more philosophical aspects of the Dao De Jing, and is much more popular with Westerners for obvious reasons.
However, to say there aren't mystical/supernatural themes and parts of the Dao De Jing isn't quite accurate. They are there, Westerners just happen to ignore them since they aren't part of their culture.
Thanks for saying it better than me, BQT. I asked this earlier, and never got an answer but does your name mean, "Precious Clear Day?"
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Oh sorry, I missed wherever you asked my name. The surname Bao, is the same as my Chinese last name. Surnames are pretty meaningless, it means package, or some Taiwanese friends used to tease me with dumpling. It's not the same bao as in bao gui (expensive, precious). That's said with a 3rd tone, my surname is said with a first tone. Characters are different too of course. QingTian literally means clear sky, often said clear blue sky, since a clear sky would be blue. He was an historical figure in ancient China, a judge who was known for his fairness and bringing justice to corrupt rulers. I think they even made a TV mini-series a few years back about him.
My actual Chinese name is Bao Hao Yun (Great/Vast Cloud) although the teacher who gave it to me assured me that I shouldn't take it too literally.
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Peace is a lie; there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Oh sorry, I missed wherever you asked my name. The surname Bao, is the same as my Chinese last name. Surnames are pretty meaningless, it means package, or some Taiwanese friends used to tease me with dumpling. It's not the same bao as in bao gui (expensive, precious). That's said with a 3rd tone, my surname is said with a first tone. Characters are different too of course. QingTian literally means clear sky, often said clear blue sky, since a clear sky would be blue. He was an historical figure in ancient China, a judge who was known for his fairness and bringing justice to corrupt rulers. I think they even made a TV mini-series a few years back about him.
My actual Chinese name is Bao Hao Yun (Great/Vast Cloud) although the teacher who gave it to me assured me that I shouldn't take it too literally.
OK! I get it now. I was not aware that you were actually Chinese. Well "Mr. Box", I shall be sure to give you the respect you deserve. As you can imagine its hard to guess exactly what pin yin is saying without tones or context around them, so sorry that I guess wrong with your name
Though I am a foreigner my dad still gave me a Chinese name Yue Tai Le. Tai Le is just a soundalike of my English name. But the surname Yue comes from a certain "Yue Fei" who was a famous and effective general also known for his perfect "filial piety."
Always nice to know alittle more about somebody in hatrack.
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Eeeek. Sorry, I think I confused you. I'm not Chinese, I'm a 6'3 white skin blue eyed caucasian, born in the USA. So you don't owe me any deference in Chinese related topics. I went on a mission to Taiwan. My teacher in the MTC was from Taiwan, she gave me my name. I'm still learning Chinese. It's one of those things you can study for a lifetime as a foreigner and still struggle. I agree about the pin yin lack of tone problem. I should probably put the tones in any Chinese I post in the future (since i don't want to install any chinese writing software on my work machine). Something like Bao(1)Hao(4)Yun(3). Sorry about the confusion.
Edit: But know i know your first name Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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I'm curious about Western Taoism MrSquicky. I know you're hardly a representative sample, but I'm curious about what you believe, since you self identify as a Taoist.
Do you base your beliefs & actions on Dao De Jing? If so, do you pick and choose what parts you'd like to follow, or do you attempt to follow it all? Do you consider some other writings by others on the subject? Do you consider it a spiritual exercise or more of a philosophical way to live? Do the views on government roles affect your politics?
If you wouldn't mind answering these somewhat personal questions, I'd appreciate it.
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Eeeek. Sorry, I think I confused you. I'm not Chinese, I'm a 6'3 white skin blue eyed caucasian, born in the USA. So you don't owe me any deference in Chinese related topics. I went on a mission to Taiwan. My teacher in the MTC was from Taiwan, she gave me my name. I'm still learning Chinese. It's one of those things you can study for a lifetime as a foreigner and still struggle. I agree about the pin yin lack of tone problem. I should probably put the tones in any Chinese I post in the future (since i don't want to install any chinese writing software on my work machine). Something like Bao(1)Hao(4)Yun(3). Sorry about the confusion.
Edit: But know i know your first name
Small world it would seem. I too served my mission in Taiwan, though I lived in China before serving my mission. Which mission did you serve in?
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BQT, Check out the thread that ElJay linked. I go sort of in-depth there. I backed into Taoism through psychology, improv theater, and Transcendentalism. I don't follow it blindly, but I don't reject things just because they don't make sense to me right away.
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Thanks, I didn't read that thread the first time through. That shed a lot of light on most things. Still a question or two though. I'm having a hard time phrasing them though. I have read the Dao De Jing, and I realize that some of what I ask is not in the spirit of the philosophy. I hope you can clarify anyway.
Would you consider Daoism to be a spiritual experience? What do you think of Lao zu? I know enlightened is kind of a more Buddhist term, but would you consider him more in tune with the Way? Again, I know I view Daoism from my own religious lens, it's difficult for me to view it outside that framework. As I've studied it, I'm made comparisons of it with my own religion. However, I am trying to understand it on its own terms- I think there's a lot of value to the Daoist school of thought.
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Celaeno: I should preface anything I ever say about Buddhism with "I don't know all that much about Buddhism." I just frequently hear Zen Buddhism described as Buddhism with a Taoist influence. From Wikipedia on Zen:
quote: Because Zen developed as a distinct school in medieval China, it also reflects the influence of Chinese philosophy, including Taoism and, to a lesser extent, Confucianism. Different researchers have developed various opinions on the degree of Taoist influence on Zen. It is clear that, in the early centuries of Buddhism's contact with China, it was often described in Taoist terminology for want of indigenous Buddhist expressions in the Chinese language. This trend is noticeable in Zen—for instance, Chinese Zen texts often use the term tao (道, pinyin: dào) in describing Buddhist philosophy.
BQT: Thank you for the clarification on Dao jiao and Dao jia. That's a very useful distinction. Also, I didn't mean to imply that there is no mysticism in the Tao Te Ching, but to say that there are not deities or rituals in the way that westerners would think of them. (Of course, I haven't read the original Chinese, sadly, but several different english translations.) The closest I can see to a concept of a deity would be things like the earth, or the sea, or other natural features, but even that doesn't seem to have much personification. In english it reads very much as philosophic metaphor, and not a literal "Earth Goddess", although perhaps that could be lost in translation.
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I consider everything to be a spiritual experience. This is something I felt before, but I think that Daoism has strengthened that view somewhat.
To put it in those terms, walking in your way (and your way is what the totality of what you are, body, mind, and spirit, shapes your reality to be) is an all the time thing.
Lao Tzu as a person isn't terribly important to me. He (assuming that he was actually the author of the Tao Te Ching) was a wise guy and seems to have been well in touch with his Dao. Other than that, I'm into the teachings, not the person.
Also, I feel more of an affinity toward Chuang Tzu's style of Daoism.
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Enigmatic- Don't worry about not being able to read the Chinese. It's written in classical Chinese and is difficult for your average, educated Chinese person to really understand. Although I won't deny it sometimes helps me to clarify an English passage. The problem I have with translations is that you always get the perspective of the translator in there, which may or may not be beneficial. Of course, you have partially worked around this problem by reading multiple translations.
MrSquicky- Thanks for responding. I guess it leaves me a bit confused about what 'I' am. Lao zi talked a lot of humanity and the Dao, and how we can conform to it (like by not trying to conform ) but I guess where I get confused is in wondering if Daoism assumes eternal beings.
Am I me before, now, and forever? Is Daoism only concerned with the now? Am I a spirit constantly being recycled through living things until I achieve enlightenment? Or will I simply pass on and attempt to walk the Dao in the next plane of my existance. I guess looking at my questions, the part where I'm hung up is the religion vs. philosophy question (which is probably why I asked about spirituality to begin with). Is this just something to help us live life right, or is there more to come?
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BQT, I've always seen that kind of thing as the reason why many people in the East don't just practice one religion or another... each leaves certain areas somewhat grey...
Admittedly I'm a novice at best, but I was always under the impression that the Tao and Confucianism both addressed more of the now aspects of things, which Buddhism was a bit more in-tune with the life/death aspect of things.
It's also why I could potentially be a Catholic Taoist, just as well as someone could be a Buddhist - Taoist... though admittedly there would prolly be more conflicts on the Catholic front.
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Hey, you guys wanna come be guest speakers in my class next year when I teach Buddhism? I hit the origins, 4 noble truths and eight-fold path. I have no idea what y'all are talking about. Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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aretee, We're not really talking about Buddhism. This is Daoism, so it makes sense that you wouldn't see it in a teaching Buddhism curiculumn.
BQT, Chuang Tzu has mnay famous stories, of which perhaps the most famous is the one where he dreamed he was a butterfly, but then woke up as a man. But now he's not sure if he's a man who dreamt he was a butterfly or a butterfly currently dreaming he's a man. That is to say, cutting out all complexity and nuance, identity in Daoism is a tricky concept.
One thing it's not, however, is "something to help us live life right" in the sense of western religious morality. Nor is it about more to come. It's really not analogous to western religions at all.
It's many things. For example, I was drawn to it in part because the psychology expressed in it's writings matches much better with what I've observed than that of the western religious tradition. So it's psychology...sort of.
It's also wisdom on how to live. Not in the sense that this is right and this is wrong, but rather what is important to focus on. (I'm not happy with that description.)
It's like, there are an infinite number of paths. Daoism isn't about telling which path you should follow, but rather about advice in how to go about finding/choosing/building/walking your path.
I don't have a problem, from a Daoist perspective, with considering the path of someone who sees reality as being governed by the Christian God who denies all paths besides Christianity as equally valid and accurately descriptive of reality as a path that does the same with the Muslim God or my own path. Reality, as with identity, is far more complex than yes and no and A implying that not A can't be true.
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Yeah, I struggled with the phrasing too MrSquicky. Help us live life right wasn't suggesting that Daoism set some moral rules for us to follow (like most Western religions) but rather that it helped provide ideas for how to approach life. Hmmmm, I'm not happy with the phrasing on that one either. I think we're understand each other on this point, it's just really hard to put into words.
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The Dao that can be spoken is not the true Dao.
(If the Dao of Squicky didn't prevent it, I'd throw a smilie in their to make it clear that was meant humorously.)
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The one aspect of the Dao that no one has mentioned is the search for immortality via herbs, meditation, and/or alchemy. Each of those three separately would represent several encyclopedia volumes.
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My only qualm with Daoism is that I think it does the same thing as Greek philosophy.
"Asks tons of questions, provides no answers."
Asking questions is a good thing, but if you can't provide a good answer EVER you really are not accomplishing THAT much.
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Perhaps the answers are multifaceted, and unexpressable between different people. You assume that if there are questions, then there should be a single (or at least one system of) answers. It's a very Western way of thought (to which I appreciate, and don't disagree with). However, I think it is clear that Taoism does not have that assumption... Which doesn't necessarily relegate it to the lowest common denominator relativism either.
Buddhism answers without reservation what the purpose of life is. It explains the nature of death, the nature of birth. It even establishes a system of morality.
Whenever I discussed Daoism with a self proclaimed Daoist, it became maddeningly frustrating how they always said 2 things. "There are many ways to get into heaven, even your way works, but so does mine." and "God created Daoism/Buddhism for the people of the east, and he created Christianity for the people of the west."
Maybe I am losing my hair because of my genes, but its equally likely I moved the process along by pulling my own hair out.
Then again I guess I can't complain about what answers Daoism does give when I demand them can I?
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I don't see how your example shows they say 2 things.
I wonder if the key to Taoism is authenticity. The reason multiple ways can work is because so long as one is authentically following their way, then on that way lies "heaven".
posted
The focus is different. In a way, it's sort of a give a man a fish situation. If a religion gives you an answer, then what you've got is an answer. Which works fine (with some caveats) as long as it's the right answer.
In Daoism, many things don't have fixed answers. There's no universal purpose of life, nature of death and birth, etc. There's no way to tell people what the answers are.
Also, on of the central tenent of Daoisms is, as I said above, that the Dao that can be told is not the true Dao. The truth that can be spoken is not the Eternal Truth. Any answers that could be fully expressed in words would necessarily be incomplete at best.
Nothing can tell your what your path is. They can just act as signposts. Daoist writings are often centered around encouraging not knowledge, but rather understanding.
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quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: I don't see how your example shows they say 2 things.
I wonder if the key to Taoism is authenticity. The reason multiple ways can work is because so long as one is authentically following their way, then on that way lies "heaven".
-Bok
I said "2 things" not as in "2 things that contradict each other," but "Those 2 things."
I dunno I just didnt like the idea of God creating different religious routes that say different things and yet accomplish the same objective. But then again I believe in Christianity which has a history of one group of people getting one law to follow which was eventually replaced by a higher law for people to follow. Color me hypocritical
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I'm worse than that. I can accept that it's true that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the only God for some people, that There is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is his prophet for others, and that both of those guys are really just parts of Sri Krishna for others.
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It's hard to understand this with our Western way of thinking BlackBlade, and especially our religion. Mormonism is extremely structured and goal oriented. We need to do such and such to be righteous, in addition to doing this and this in order to acheive salvation.
Daoism suggests that the very act of attempting to be righteous is self-defeating. There is no one plan for everyone. From my limited understanding, God did not create the Dao for us to follow. The Dao just is.
That's why it's so hard (especially so much for us Mormons) to understand. God has these characteristics, he has a body, this is his plan, etc. Going from that to not even being able to qualitatively or quantitavely describe the Dao can feel like running in circles.
However, if you haven't read the Dao De Jing, I highly suggest it. There's a lot in there that was enlightening for me. In particular, I've been kind of pondering the philosophy of wu(4) wei(4) wei (4) (non-action action) and following the gospel. Also I think that some of the ideas of leadership related to the priesthood. Not that I'm planning on writing the Tao of Mormonism or anything (they honestly seem diametrically opposed at times), but it's interesting.
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