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I thought this article made interesting points about the continuing necessity of feminism. A transgendered scientist, who's now lived as both a man and a woman, has written about his personal experience as such.
quote:Neurobiologist Ben Barres has a unique perspective on former Harvard president Lawrence Summers's assertion that innate differences between the sexes might explain why many fewer women than men reach the highest echelons of science.
That's because Barres used to be a woman himself.
Transgender Scientist Ben Barres Ben Barres, a neurobiologist at Stanford University's Medical Center, looks through a microscope in his lab on Tuesday, July 11, 2006. Barres switched sexes from female to male with a round of hormones in 1997. Barres has recently written an opinion piece which attributes institutional bias as the reason for the shortage of women in the sciences.
In a highly unusual critique published yesterday, the Stanford University biologist -- who used to be Barbara -- said his experience as both a man and a woman had given him an intensely personal insight into the biases that make it harder for women to succeed in science.
After he underwent a sex change nine years ago at the age of 42, Barres recalled, another scientist who was unaware of it was heard to say, "Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister's."
And as a female undergraduate at MIT, Barres once solved a difficult math problem that stumped many male classmates, only to be told by a professor: "Your boyfriend must have solved it for you."
"By far," Barres wrote, "the main difference I have noticed is that people who don't know I am transgendered treat me with much more respect" than when he was a woman. "I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man."
Barres said the switch had given him access to conversations that would have excluded him previously: "I had a conversation with a male surgeon and he told me he had never met a woman surgeon who was as good as a man."
The piece goes on to say this:
quote:Barres said he has realized from personal experience that many men are unconscious of the privileges that come with being male, which leaves them unable to countenance talk of glass ceilings and discrimination.
I've been trying to convince my boyfriend of this since before we were even dating. He gets offended when I speak well of the women in my workplace who are willing to help women get ahead, saying that it's discrimination against men and it gives me an advantage I don't need because we're already equal. I wholeheartedly disagree.
My response to this issue is essentially the same.
On the whole, I wish that human beings weren't so rotten to each other. But in terms of living a healthy and fulfilled life, the more important aspect of all of this is the individual's response to it, not the discrimination itself.
That is not to say that discrimination doesn't happen, it does, and it will continue to. It's what the person decides to do about it.
As for your question at the end, women helping women is fine. As long as they are doing it for merit, they are not contributing to the problem one way or the other. If they do it to strike a blow against discrimination, it's a pretty empty gesture. People are ALREADY going to assume that a woman got ahead because of her sex in those situations, no? So if it turns out to be true, how does that fix things? It just proves people's point for them.
I suspect that what IS true is that a woman has to prove herself more than a man would in similar circumstances. My boss is a person who did that in the early days of computer programming as a career option. I wish she'd post about it here to clarify, but I suspect that one of the reasons she owns/runs her own company is so she doesn't have to put up with the BS from males in her own organization.
I think there are ways to overcome the problem (like starting your own company and calling the shots), but it takes guts and determination. Just like there are ways to rise to the top despite the extra obstacles.
The first thing that has to change, I think is attitude though.
And the second is to refuse to put up with it.
Seriously, if I felt a boss couldn't judge me on my merits, I wouldn't let it lie there like that. I'd make an issue of it. I'd be darned sure I was right first. But then if I saw people getting promoted over me when I was more qualified and better suited, I'd voice my opinion. And then I'd find someplace else to work.
There are plenty of bosses out there who aren't idiots and jerks. I'd think in academia it probably would depend on the field. But that's true everywhere. And if you are a trail blazer, you have more crap to cut through than if you are 2nd or 3rd generation after the trail's been blazed.
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One thing to add, I think these days, there are actually alot more women getting into science. When I was in highschool, a private high school which was very science intensive) there were 14 guys, and 40 girls in my class. When I got to univeristy, in an elite program which only accepts 60 students every year, only 16 of those 60 were male (me included). And I am now working in a cancer research lab, and you guesses it, my boss is a woman, and a very intelligent, hard working, and commited woman at that.
Pretty soon Larry Summers might have to come out of retirement to tell us why more men don't get into science!
Posts: 441 | Registered: Jun 2005
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This is fascinating. I've heard women say when they are mistaken for guys online they get much more respect as well. These sorts of things are unconscious, and nearly all of us may do them, while swearing that we don't.
I know that when I talk to a female in a technical field, I have the bias that shows this way. I make sure she's someone who can help me before I explain my whole question or problem. And then if she is the right person, my standards for her are extremely high. I get pretty disgusted at girls who are in technical fields but who don't know their information very well. I cut them a lot less slack, I think, because it upsets me that they're making us look bad.
Once I made my cell phone sales rep cry. I didn't mean to be harshing on her, but she needed to learn more about the technical features of her products. She had no clue what were the functional differences between models. I felt bad that what I thought of as a motivational pep talk sounded to her like I was harshing on her. A guy salesman who knew nothing I probably would not have said anything to, just left and gone to someone else.
Why are there almost no female airline pilots? Would you feel less confident in a plane flown by a woman?
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quote:I know that when I talk to a female in a technical field, I have the bias that shows this way. I make sure she's someone who can help me before I explain my whole question or problem. And then if she is the right person, my standards for her are extremely high. I get pretty disgusted at girls who are in technical fields but who don't know their information very well. I cut them a lot less slack, I think, because it upsets me that they're making us look bad.
I'm the same way with black people. I don't know if we are right to do it; I'm saying that you are not alone.
quote:Why are there almost no female airline pilots? Would you feel less confident in a plane flown by a woman?
I thought that there was a strong institutionally-supported correlation between commercial pilots and military training.
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quote:Why are there almost no female airline pilots? Would you feel less confident in a plane flown by a woman?
I thought that there was a strong institutionally-supported correlation between commercial pilots and military training.
No longer as true as before for two reasons:
1) There are female pilots in the military now, but more importantly,
2) That was mainly true for the large planes and airlines are switching over to much larger fleets of regional jets. If you look at the gender mix of pilots on the smaller jets and turbo-props, you'll find that it's much more equal than on the bigger jets. That's because the pilots are coming out of technical schools and not the military.
Also note: salaries for pilots are dropping at the same time.
A well-studied phenomenon is that every career area in which women make inroads experiences an average wage drop at about the same time.
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Is this true for the professions? Legal salaries have greatly outpaced inflation. I'm not sure about doctors and accountants, but I haven't heard of huge decreases there, either.
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I've always thought it would be interesting to compare the percentage of women's papers accepted at conferences where there is blind review versus other conferences.
It's at least a vaguely objective measure.
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I wonder: to what degree did Barres' consciousness of his female self propogate such reactions.
How do we know that he/she acted in the same manner for each gender? The process of being transgender promotes such a highly aware sense of gender and gender differences that I wouldn't be surprised if Barres catered to what he considered male reactions, or conversely, acted in a more stereotypically feminine manner.
However, the other day I was told, "I like that you are a smart girl"---I'm not saying that that sort of treatment doesn't exist, but I think its important to consider the mitigating factors of his experiment as well.
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I'm not surprised at all that the average wage drops at the same time women enter a field. Discrimination hurts both the employer and the potential employees who are being discriminated against - the employeer must either accept canidates who have inferior technical skills (compared to the group they're discriminating against), or, if there's a fair amount of choice in the supply market, pay a premium to attract qualified canidates.
Once it becomes acceptable to employ a group once discriminated against, the supply of workers available to the employeer increases. In the case of women, if women become equally acceptable for employement as men, then the supply of workers can as much as double. Basically, the employeer has more options, and the potential employees face higher competition. Push the supply side to the right and you'll see a decrease in price - in this case wage.
Gary Becker has done some really interesting work on the economics of discrimination - his thesis was on the subject.
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Kasie is a gender neutral name, isn't it? You do have a boyfriend, but your article is about a transgendered scientist.....hmm...you could be gay.
Can you clarify your gender before I respond so I know how serious I should take your post and feelings?
quote:Originally posted by Kristen: I wonder: to what degree did Barres' consciousness of his female self propogate such reactions.
How do we know that he/she acted in the same manner for each gender? The process of being transgender promotes such a highly aware sense of gender and gender differences that I wouldn't be surprised if Barres catered to what he considered male reactions, or conversely, acted in a more stereotypically feminine manner.
That's possible, but there are definitely differences. Two stories that I saw myself.
We were at a pizza place in California when Tova was about two, maybe two and a half. She had shortish blonde hair at the time (it took a long time for her hair to really come in), but she was wearing a dress with like a lace collar.
There was a boyscout troup that was having a thing there, and while they were waiting, this troop master (or whatever the adult leaders are called) came over and saw Tova. He saw the hair, didn't notice the dress, and started in with, "Hey there, big guy. Are you waiting for your pizza?" He even ruffled Tova's hair. And then he turned to us and told us, "You have a nice looking son." I said, "Thanks. Her name is Tova." And my hand to God, without so much as a blink, he looked at her again and said, "Aren't you the sweetest thing?"
It was all going on beneath his conscious awareness, so far as I could tell. And I don't think he had a clue how differently he reacted to Tova when he thought she was a boy and when he realized she was a girl.
Second one. I had a friend in New York who was transitioning, male to female. She was near the beginning of her transition. Her voice was passable, she's not overly tall, and she never had any adam's apple to speak of. She had "big thick tranny makeup" that covered any shadow on her face. And she was wearing jeans and a sweatshirt.
We were shopping for God knows what. I saw her sirred and ma'amed within minutes by different people. She was not acting any differently in the various cases, but there was enough androgyny due to where she was in transition that different people picked up different cues. And their reactions were incredibly different. Both men and women treated her very differently depending on what gender they perceived her to be.
When she needed to buy stuff in the tool or electronic category, men who saw her as female were solicitous and assumed that she didn't know anything. Men who saw her as male just directed her to where she needed to go. There were offers of "Do you need help with that, miss?" but not a single offer of "Do you need help with that, sir?" And while she's medium small on the male scale, she's medium big on the female scale.
When she'd try to explain what she wanted, she was listened to in all seriousness by people who saw her as male. She was interrupted and "helped" over and over by people who saw her as female.
quote:Originally posted by Kristen: However, the other day I was told, "I like that you are a smart girl"---I'm not saying that that sort of treatment doesn't exist, but I think its important to consider the mitigating factors of his experiment as well.
I know. The guys in my group are programmers. I'm a woman programmer. Go figure.
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quote:Originally posted by lem: Kasie is a gender neutral name, isn't it? You do have a boyfriend, but your article is about a transgendered scientist.....hmm...you could be gay.
I don't know why it should matter, but if you check her profile, her AIM ID is J3rownEyedGirl. And I don't think Kasie is a gender-neutral name. But it seems like a rude thing to concern yourself with.
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I am very attached to being female. I have never desired to be male, though sometimes my interests have seemed more male than female. (I'd rather hang with my older brothers growing up than my "girlie" younger sister.)
I have little patience and respect for guys who dismiss female's thoughts and opinions. I try to do my part to counter preconceived notions by being level-headed, logical, and straightforward.
Perhaps it helps that I am not blonde. It is possible that brunettes are treated with more respect. Or maybe it has to do with my manner/aura. But I am generally taken seriously by men-folk, and I appreciate that.
I haven't experienced much of this not being able to "complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man" business. And if it happens, it is generally from the generation of my parents. It reflects far more poorly on them than on me, so I generally shrug it off and don't take it personally.
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Having lived both as a man and as a woman, this scientist might have insight into the different ways the two are treated. However, she has exactly zero special insight into any "innate differences" between the sexes, which was the subject of the remarks made by the president of Harvard.
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Well, actually, to the extent that such differences are caused by hormones, she does have insight. If they are instead caused by different brain development, she knows nothing, it's true. I would note, though, that she has just as much 'special insight' as the comrade President does.
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I thought the point of Barre's article was that women scientists at the highest levels are treated differently, resulting in different motivations, different numbers of papers accepted by journals, and different jobs. People then look around and see less women in scientific fields. They blame "innate differences" and not the jerks who ask "Did your boyfriend do your math problem?"
Barre is attributing these differences to nurture, not nature.
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quote:As for your question at the end, women helping women is fine. As long as they are doing it for merit, they are not contributing to the problem one way or the other. If they do it to strike a blow against discrimination, it's a pretty empty gesture. People are ALREADY going to assume that a woman got ahead because of her sex in those situations, no? So if it turns out to be true, how does that fix things? It just proves people's point for them.
Does no one see the irony in these claims. Discrimination against women, is the exact the same as favoritism for men.
If women must be better than men to get the same recognition, that directly implies that men don't have to be as good as women to achieve the same recognition. How often are men accused of getting the job or promotion just because they were men? Yet if a women don't get promotions just because they are women, then men often get promoted just because they are men. How often do people assume that a man is less competent in his job than the woman in the next cubicle just because he is a man? How often is it assumed that a man gets ahead becausse of his sex? And yet this is exactly what is happening all the time.
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quote: Well, actually, to the extent that such differences are caused by hormones, she does have insight. If they are instead caused by different brain development, she knows nothing, it's true. I would note, though, that she has just as much 'special insight' as the comrade President does.
Assuming that transgenderism is not caused by different brain development, that is. And great job being sensitive to "her."
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I've found that Kasie with a K is almost always female, but that Casey with a C can go either way. -ie or -i or play -y endings are usually girls, whereas boys are almost always spelled Casey. A 'c' in the middle is feminine, too, Kaci or Kacy. Odd, I suppose.
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I read a short story awhile back in which it was easy to change sexes. It explored some interesting ideas, but it also brought up the idea that just switching genders isn't the same as growing up a certain gender. So much of our development happens when we are young, and someone who didn't grow up in a certain gender still cannot fully understand the pressures, expectations, etc., placed on that gender.
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quote: I speak well of the women in my workplace who are willing to help women get ahead
How is this not discrimiation on the basis of sex? Some may think that it's justified, but is the best way to fight fire with fire?
Consider the phrases: I speak well of the white men in my workplace who are willing to help other white men get ahead. I speak well of Christians in my workplace who are willing to help other Christians get ahead.
quote: I read a short story awhile back in which it was easy to change sexes. It explored some interesting ideas, but it also brought up the idea that just switching genders isn't the same as growing up a certain gender. So much of our development happens when we are young, and someone who didn't grow up in a certain gender still cannot fully understand the pressures, expectations, etc., placed on that gender.
Very interesting point. Certain formative treatment may occur only at childhood, and, if that period of being treated a certain way is missed, can't ever truly be experienced.
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quote:Originally posted by beverly: I read a short story awhile back in which it was easy to change sexes. It explored some interesting ideas, but it also brought up the idea that just switching genders isn't the same as growing up a certain gender. So much of our development happens when we are young, and someone who didn't grow up in a certain gender still cannot fully understand the pressures, expectations, etc., placed on that gender.
Was it by any chance a story in which the penis was kind of a "hot potato" type organ, that was passed at orgasm to whoever had been the female in that sexual encounter? If so, who was it by? I've been racking my brain trying to remember who wrote that one for ages. I want to say Nancy Kress, but I'm not sure.
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quote:Originally posted by beverly: I read a short story awhile back in which it was easy to change sexes. It explored some interesting ideas, but it also brought up the idea that just switching genders isn't the same as growing up a certain gender. So much of our development happens when we are young, and someone who didn't grow up in a certain gender still cannot fully understand the pressures, expectations, etc., placed on that gender.
Was it a John Varley story? He did that a lot in his early stuff.
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It seems to me that the special insite Dr. Barres has is not insite about how it feels to be a Man or a Woman in our society, but insite in how others treat you because you are a man or a woman. When other scientists comment that his work is much better than his "sister's work", none of the questions about hormones, or brain development, or early childhood conditioning matter at all. This persons special is insite into how differently people react to a man and woman. It is as close as one will ever get to a controlled experiment on this subject. Whether it's Ben Barres or Barbara Barres, it is after all the same person, the same genes, the same development and the same brain. The fact that Dr. Barres' work is viewed differently as a man than when she was a woman, reveals something about prejudices with in science.
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Or it could mean that Ben's work had progressed and been refined significantly over the last 9 years as opposed to where Barbara's had left off, could it not? (Unless he was publishing simultaneously under two names)
That being said, some of the other comments are pretty indefensible such as the surgeon's or the professor/boyfriend comments.
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quote:I'm not sure about doctors and accountants, but I haven't heard of huge decreases there, either.
No, but I was reading an article (which I can't find at the moment and we have to go, like, right now) about the specialties that are dominated by women being paid less than specialties dominated by men, and how many gynecologists are pulling out of OB work because the malpractice insurance is so high and the pay is so low.
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I read a story about easy sex change a few years back; it was by Neil Gaiman in his Smoke and Mirrors short story collection, but I forget the name. You could take a pill, be comatose for 12 hours, and wake up functionally and chromosomally the opposite sex, and you could switch back and forth as often as you liked. I would absolutely love to have something like that available. If I did have it I might find that I preferred one sex enough to stay that way permanently, but I'd love to try out being male, just to see what it's like.
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quote:No, but I was reading an article (which I can't find at the moment and we have to go, like, right now) about the specialties that are dominated by women being paid less than specialties dominated by men, and how many gynecologists are pulling out of OB work because the malpractice insurance is so high and the pay is so low.
I'm confused how that follows. The lowest paid specialty, is, if I'm not mistaken, pediatrics. I have no idea of the ratio of male to female doctors in that specialty, but I have a hard time seeing that the reason peds aren't paid as much as say, cardiothoracic surgeons, owes more to the fact that more women are in that specialty than it does to the additional training the surgeon must undergo.
And the malpractice insurance isn't in any way related, I don't think. Malpractice rates for ob's are enormous regardless of the gender of the ob. Maybe Theca or CT can give us some additional insight.
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From my experience, this issue is too complicated and varied from area to area to be clear.
From the article there definately seem to be a few things that were pretty clearly cases of sexism (the boyfriend comment etc), and such cases definately exist. In my work group (in Aerospace Engineering) there are definately a few of the older holdouts who are quite sexist, but practically everyone younger than 50 is quite respectful to all my female coworkers.
Do we react differently if someone is a man or a woman? Certainly, and much of the time the difference in reaction is completely appropriate.
starLisa, from your shpping example: as a man I absolutely do not expect most store employees to offer me assistance, and to a certain extent I am off-put when they do. Men, by and large, have a very different manner of shopping than women. Men tend to know what they are looking for in a store and go straight there, buy whatever they are looking for and leave. If there are questions about a product or store layout they may ask or not. Women on the other hand (from my experience) are in a completely different mindset, and thus expect and warrent a different reaction from employees.
Are women less respected currently in highly technical fields? Probably most of the time. Is there sometimes some logic behind it? Probably, especially since women becoming involved in highly technical fields is still a relatively new phenomena it is assumed that they can't quite be at the top of the field because they don't have the 30+ years experience many of the men might have. From my experience in academia and industry do I feel that women are treated unfairly? generally not, though they are often treated differently.
I would be interested to see some kind of blind study of people who do some combination of reading identical papers with a man or a woman listed as author and listening to identical presentations with a man or a woman presenting and see what their reactions are.
I will say though that the kind of unofficial affirmative action that currently goes on in technical fields can be very frustrating from the male side of things. For example: when co-op interviews were taking place and offers were being made in my major the women recieved vastly more offers than the men, even when many of the men were as/more qualified than the women. For example, of approximately 2 dozen positions at various NASA sites I can only think of 2 that were not given to women.
I'm more or less going to stop rambling now because I don't know that I've made a point yet, and have since forgotten what it was I was intending to say.
also, while I'm sure there are many grammatical errors in this post: Rabbit, it's "insight" not "insite"
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One of my best friends (female) got her BS in psychology (with, I think, a 3.9 GPA) and went to work for a developer in Atlanta. She frequently complained of not only her bosses but her clients treating her like a secretary. Now, obviously the construction industry in the South is going to be especially behind the times when it comes to feminism, but that sucks.
She got past it, and is now a well respected (and well paid) member of the team. But her first two years were hellish.
I offer this not as proof, but just as one story from one person who's experienced sexist undertones in her job. I have three similar stories from three similar friends right off the top of my head, but I'll spare you.
The thing that stinks the most is that I don't have any solution except time. As woman working alongside and above men becomes more commonplace, I expect the inequalities to all but disappear. Till then, I'm just thankful I'm a man.
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quote:Originally posted by beverly: I read a short story awhile back in which it was easy to change sexes. It explored some interesting ideas, but it also brought up the idea that just switching genders isn't the same as growing up a certain gender. So much of our development happens when we are young, and someone who didn't grow up in a certain gender still cannot fully understand the pressures, expectations, etc., placed on that gender.
Was it a John Varley story? He did that a lot in his early stuff.
John Varley did that fairly recently too in STEEL BEACH (1992). A great book.
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quote:Was it by any chance a story in which the penis was kind of a "hot potato" type organ, that was passed at orgasm to whoever had been the female in that sexual encounter? If so, who was it by? I've been racking my brain trying to remember who wrote that one for ages. I want to say Nancy Kress, but I'm not sure.
No. Porter might know the title and author. This is a story where a wife decides she wants to try out being a guy, and the husband disapproves and is saddened by her decision.
StarLisa, I don't know if that is the author either. But does this description ring a bell at all?
Edit: Just asked Porter. It was John Varley, a story called "Options."
quote:Was it by any chance a story in which the penis was kind of a "hot potato" type organ, that was passed at orgasm to whoever had been the female in that sexual encounter?
I've read the beginning of that story. It is "Oceanic" by Greg Egan.
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quote:As for your question at the end, women helping women is fine. As long as they are doing it for merit, they are not contributing to the problem one way or the other. If they do it to strike a blow against discrimination, it's a pretty empty gesture. People are ALREADY going to assume that a woman got ahead because of her sex in those situations, no? So if it turns out to be true, how does that fix things? It just proves people's point for them.
Does no one see the irony in these claims. Discrimination against women, is the exact the same as favoritism for men.
If women must be better than men to get the same recognition, that directly implies that men don't have to be as good as women to achieve the same recognition. How often are men accused of getting the job or promotion just because they were men? Yet if a women don't get promotions just because they are women, then men often get promoted just because they are men. How often do people assume that a man is less competent in his job than the woman in the next cubicle just because he is a man? How often is it assumed that a man gets ahead becausse of his sex? And yet this is exactly what is happening all the time.
"exactly what is happening all the time..."
My point was that if you make assumptions about how the world works, you will see the working working that way whether it does or not, and you will miss other possible explanations.
My point about people already thinking that about women who get ahead wasn't that ALL people think that way, but that those who do will take it as confirmation. I should've been more specific.
There are two things that I think should be looked at before jumping to the conclusion that discrimination has happened:
1) Are there other possible explanations that can't be ruled out. Frankly, even though I'm willing to grant that there IS real discrimination and that it is rampant (both in frequency and in market penetration, so to speak) proving it takes more than a "Black Like Me" expose for gender instead of race. Carefully controlled sociological studies have been able to uncover the well-hidden attitudes of discrimination that are pervasive and subtle. Documenting that there are jerks out there who will assume the worst of someone because she is a woman, or black, or fat or whatever...that just proves there are jerks out there.
And no, incidence of a particular group in positions of power or attainment doesn't prove it either.
It's out there...yeah, but proving it isn't so simple. Even if you feel it every day.
2) There are ways to deal with it. I've seen people ground down to nothing by this issue (and similar ones). Believing that you can't get a break is the surest way to ensure you don't. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I lived with this kind of thing for years. And you know what...I could see the person's attitude get crappier and crappier and still she blamed the world, and her bosses, and discrimination in general. I don't blame people for getting angry about it. YES IT SUCKS.
But what you do about it makes a huge difference in the long term outcome. I'm not saying accept it or "get over it." What I am saying is "okay, so it exists. now what?" If women wait for someone to pass and enforce laws to deal with this stuff, they'll be stuck with the dregs for another generation.
Discriminating in reverse is one way to attempt to deal with it, but...you'd better be darned good at covering your tracks, and you'd better not mess up and promote an incompetent woman over a competent man or your whole scheme is blown out of the water and you prove your enemies' point. (the issue I tried and failed to cover adequately in my prior post).
Here's what I was really trying to get at:
I've seen women deal with this problem successfully. To a person, they are ticked off about the injustice of it and their response has been to just excel anyway. To confront it head one when that would work, and to be ready to bail on an employer when confronting the problem didn't work. They didn't wait for someone else to solve their problem. And in fact, they just lived their life assuming that everyone else recognized their superiority and if they didn't that was just their tough luck.
I can't think of a better way to handle it.
That's all I was saying.
If there are other models of success for women out there, then I would like to know them.
Also...just an aside, nice people also suffer from discrimination in many fields. Arrogant people, or those who just assume the mantle of superiority (deserved or not) typically get ahead faster and go father. Self-confidence (justified or not) has been a bigger factor in success in my experience than actual competence.
Certainly a lack of self-confidence can stymie a person.
but if you look at the people in leadership, they didn't get handed those positions as rewards for excellent work (edit or rather JUST for excellent work). They got there because they bulled their way through. Nice guys (and gals) may not finish last, but they don't finish first either. And it's because most of the time they are sitting back waiting for someone to notice that they deserve something rather than just stepping up and claiming it.
My boss can run a company because she has those traits (and is very competent). And anyone who treats her in a patronizing manner had better be wearing (figurative) protective gear.
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40% Exposure, 30% Image, 30% Performance, is how I saw it rated recently, on factors that contribute to promotion.
All I care about is performance. So I guess it's a good thing I don't have ambitions to move into upper level managment.
Being a girl in a technical field has a few advantages and a number of disadvantages, but it seems to work out okay for me. It's important to excel, to not let other people steer you into softer more girly areas of work, and away from the main moneymaking activities of your company, and to be willing to make a move whenever things are favorable. It's also tremendously important to have a great time doing what you do. That makes it all worthwhile. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote: And in fact, they just lived their life assuming that everyone else recognized their superiority and if they didn't that was just their tough luck.
Yeah, this about describes me . I've been a tech in the computer field for about 10 years. And by tech, I mean I've built and maintained PCs for a career. In every job I've ever had, I've been the only female except for my bosses. It's a very male dominated field. And yet, I've only ever had someone take umbrage at my sex once. I was assigned to train the new guy, and he refused to accept that I was lead because I was younger than him and a "pretty girl". I spoke to my boss about it, he was given an extremely stern talking to, still couldnt accept it, and got fired. Everyone just took it in stride. I owned my own "business", small scale computer repair and building, for a year and didnt notice any discrimination on the part of my customers. I'm not saying it didnt exist, I'm just saying I didnt notice it. And that, to me, has been the key to my success in my field. If something is holding me back, I tend to plow right through it like it doesnt exist. If someone is holding me back, I tend to either ignore them if I can or circumvent them in whatever way is necessary. And I'm rather excessively confident that I can do whatever the hell I say I can. It's how I got a job as a network admin when I was 20 with no relevant experience in a company where the only woman was a secretary. I said I could do it and I was given the chance to prove it. I was lucky to be given the chance, but it wasnt luck that put me in the way of that chance. I chose a place that was small enough and flexible enough to allow me to move around and up. I've always chosen places like that, and it's kept me happy in my field. Doesnt work for everyone though, and people stuck in inflexible corporate environments that tend to foster discrimination have my sympathy.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I didn't mean to be harshing on her, but she needed to learn more about the technical features of her products. She had no clue what were the functional differences between models. I felt bad that what I thought of as a motivational pep talk sounded to her like I was harshing on her. A guy salesman who knew nothing I probably would not have said anything to, just left and gone to someone else.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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. I've been a tech in the computer field for about 10 years. And by tech, I mean I've built and maintained PCs for a career. In every job I've ever had, I've been the only female except for my bosses. It's a very male dominated field. And yet, I've only ever had someone take umbrage at my sex once. I was assigned to train the new guy, and he refused to accept that I was lead because I was younger than him and a "pretty girl". I spoke to my boss about it, he was given an extremely stern talking to, still couldnt accept it, and got fired. Everyone just took it in stride. 
