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Author Topic: Axis of Evil
Bean Counter
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So Did the President show prophetic knowledge or did he create a self fulfilling prophesy when he called Iran and North Korea a part of an Axis of Evil?

The activities of these two nations lately leave little doubt that the statement was nothing less then truth.

BC

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fugu13
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Iran's current situation has little to do with his comments.

There is significant evidence, however, that North Korea's actions are in large part predicated on that statement and the policies that went along with it (notably stalling on our treaty obligations and refusing to have talks over the stalling). This is a big reason the bush administration is taking a much softer line over the missile tests.

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raventh1
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At least those that are in our national headlines are the ones you are refering to, hence maybe the prophetic link ?
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Jay
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He forgot to mention Syria
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Bean Counter
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Syria wants stability, like Saudi Arabia they are run by selfish despicable men, but at least they are predictable selfish men, men who will can count on to act in rational self interest, It is the real crazy ones that get on the axis list.

Of course in the Arab world it is political suicide to be anything but a Jihad supporting, Israel hating, misogynist, but as long as you are invested stable trade and public utilities you can be tolerated.

BC

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Tresopax
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The U.S. and Israel are the only nations that have gone to war with another since the President made that statement. Iraq didn't. North Korea hasn't. Iran supported terrorist groups who kidnapped some Israelis and threaten Israel, and who are now defending themselves against the Israeli response.
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Paul Goldner
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" Iran supported terrorist groups who kidnapped some Israelis and threaten Israel, and who are now defending themselves against the Israeli response."

In the real world, this is called "paying the consequences for an act of war."

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Lyrhawn
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Except the terrorists aren't the ones primarily paying the price. Clever of them really.
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Bean Counter
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So if you are not a nation you can get away with anything you want? A nation must crush bandits, thieves, murderers, rapists, pirates and terrorists as well as invading enemy states in order to remain healthy, virtue and goodness demands this, it is not evil, it is duty.

BC

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Paul Goldner
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"Except the terrorists aren't the ones primarily paying the price. Clever of them really."

I'm not sure its truly legitimate to seperate hezbollah and lebanon. I'm not sure lumping them is legitimate either, though.

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Pelegius
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It is, however, entirely legitimate to say that Israel is killing, with some deliberateness, Lebanese who are not Hezbollah, including many children. But then Israel has seldom chosen to distinguish civilians from terrorists, which is why they earn so little international support for their actions. Western intellectuals and leaders used to be almost unequivocally pro-Israeli, now even the most conservative are growing weary of their bloodletting. See my thread about the Economist article.
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Paul Goldner
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"It is, however, entirely legitimate to say that Israel is killing, with some deliberateness, Lebanese who are not Hezbollah, including many children."

Factually incorrect.

"But then Israel has seldom chosen to distinguish civilians from terrorists"

Either a blatant lie, or a total disregard for objectively looking at situations.

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Pelegius
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I have posted two threads on this subject before, both of which cited highly reputable sources. I suggest you read them. In one, I specify how many Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis in the past year, including how many of them (around half) were civilians and then how many Israelis were killed by Palestinians in the same time period. I am no liar.
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Paul Goldner
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Can you link them?
On the other hand, I'm pretty content with my research over the last 5 years on this matter, and I highly doubt that you can find more then 2% of Israeli military actions that target civilians... on the other hand, military (and I use that word REALLY loosely now) actions carried out against israel have almost exclusively been targetting civilians.

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Paul Goldner
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" In one, I specify how many Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis in the past year, including how many of them (around half) were civilians and then how many Israelis were killed by Palestinians in the same time period. I am no liar."

You realize this means absolutely nothing in terms of support for you contention in the previous post, correct? I mean, literally, it has absolutely nothing to do with your contention about israel deliberately targetting civilians, and even less to do with distinguishing terrorists from civilians?

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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Goldner:

I'm not sure its truly legitimate to seperate hezbollah and lebanon. I'm not sure lumping them is legitimate either, though.

I agree that this issue is far from clear-cut. However, it is also important for Israel to take control of the ground that is being used to attack their country no matter who happens to be on it. It is unfortunate that civilians have had to suffer, but in my opinion the blame rests on the terrorists that they were sheltering.
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Paul Goldner
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And I'd appreciate if you not edit your posts on this topic after posting them. I know that its not considered bad manners to do so on this site, but I'd already responded to your last post before you edited.
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fugu13
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The Lebanese government is generally against Hezbollah, in large part because Hezbollah was part of a lengthy civil war against the government, and is breaking an agreement to disarm reached with the government and international forces, and extends Syrian influence into Lebanon.

From what I've read, the Lebanese government is taking the "please stop killing our civilians, but attack Hezbollah all you want, we weren't in power in that area anyways" approach in diplomatic relations (its public stance is a bit more anti-Israeli).

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Paul Goldner
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"The Lebanese government is generally against Hezbollah, in large part because Hezbollah was part of a lengthy civil war against the government, and is breaking an agreement to disarm reached with the government and international forces, and extends Syrian influence into Lebanon."

On the other hand, hezbollah is part of the lebanese government, which makes the whole thing really complicated.

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fugu13
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I thought the Lebanese gov't was parliamentary? That would make Hezbollah part of the parliament, not the government. Also, they're two different Hezbollahs (though somewhat related, not nearly as much as the military and civilian wings of Hamas are. There are significant tensions between the two Hezbollahs).

Yeah, the government is anti-Syrian and anti-Hezbollah

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Tresopax
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quote:
So if you are not a nation you can get away with anything you want? A nation must crush bandits, thieves, murderers, rapists, pirates and terrorists as well as invading enemy states in order to remain healthy, virtue and goodness demands this, it is not evil, it is duty.
Nations get away with stuff too. Iran and Syria are getting away with this, even when it is pretty clear they are at least in part behind the "act of war". It is also appears that, for the most part, Israel is getting away with attacking Lebanon too. They certainly aren't getting destroyed as much as Lebanon is, yet.

However, my guess is that eventually, in the long run, all parties will face the consequences for their actions. That'd be even more true if you believe in justice in the afterlife, as I suspect many in those particular nations do.

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Pelegius
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http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_STQTNJP


Do you subscribe? Papa J. does not allow me to post the article here, as is common on other fora, although I am not sure the legalities of the situation are really that clear cut. The article is about Palestine, not Lebanon, but I have no reason to suspect the IDF has changed its tactics in the last two weeks.

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Paul Goldner
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Pelegius-
You understand, of course, that this article has absolutely no bearing on the argument you are trying to make? It does not, for one single line, address the issue of whether Israel is deliberately attempting to kill civilians, or not. And thats the charge you made... not that israel has killed civilians, but that the IDF TRIES to. They are significantly different arguments, and the economist article does not bolster the one you are trying to make.

Incidentally, I haven't seen you address the issue of Hamas trying to kill civilians.

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Pelegius
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The body count alone shows how little the IDF distinguishes between civilians and militants, and how willing they are to kill civilians if they think they can also kill a terrorist.

"Incidentally, I haven't seen you address the issue of Hamas trying to kill civilians." Is Israel an infant that should cry out "but they do it too?"

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Paul Goldner
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"The body count alone shows how little the IDF distinguishes between civilians and militants, and how willing they are to kill civilians if they think they can also kill a terrorist."

No it doesn't. This is terrible logic.

In almost every military action the IDF has taken since the start of the second intifadah, if the IDF did not distinguish between civilians and terrorists, and are willing to kill terrorists, they would have used different tactics then they have. For example: Larger ordinance, carpet bombing, repeated strikes on a single target, etc.

""Incidentally, I haven't seen you address the issue of Hamas trying to kill civilians." Is Israel an infant that should cry out "but they do it too?""

Thats actually not the point. The point is that being up in arms about civilian casualties israel has caused, but not about civilian casualties caused by hamas and hezbollah (organizations that do claim to be deliberately trying to kill israeli civilians), is probably anti-semetic, based on the reasoning that if you criticize only israel for an action, but not other organizations or nations for similar or more egregious actions, then you have an irrational hatred of israel.

I think you do have an irrational hatred of israel. This thread is a good demonstration of that, since you think a numerical argument demonstrates an argument of intent, and since you are criticizing Israel for something it tries very hard not to do while not criticizing israel's enemies for something they have repeatedly claimed to be trying to do.

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fugu13
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The legalities of article posting are incredibly clear-cut, go read some copyright law.

(edit: for entire articles. The amount of excerpting is more up in the air, but you'd be okay with a few short to medium sized paragraphs or one long one)

[ July 18, 2006, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]

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Morbo
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Paul, I would restate Pel's point and say that the IDF has been somewhat cavalier in their attitude towards civilian collateral damage. Just because the IDF did not use tactics like "larger ordinance, carpet bombing, repeated strikes on a single target, etc." is small comfort to the civilians killed along with more legitimate targets, like when missles and bombs are used to kill Hamas members in apartment buildings.

Before you whip out the anti-Zionist card, let me say that of course the terrorist civilian bombing campaign is far, far, worse. But I expect Israel to hold to a higher moral standard than I do terrorist groups. Just like I criticise US tactics that go over the line.

Pel, you could post some excerpts of that article. That's fair use, legal, and allowed by Papa J. Posting an entire copyrighted article that's only available by subscription is not fair use.

Just pick out a paragraph or two that support your points.

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Morbo
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Goldner:
This thread is a good demonstration of that, since you think a numerical argument demonstrates an argument of intent, and since you are criticizing Israel for something it tries very hard not to do while not criticizing israel's enemies for something they have repeatedly claimed to be trying to do.

I think a numerical argument can be made that Israel doesn't try as hard as it could to avoid civilian casulties. Though I am not prepared to make it now.

But when a vehicle on a busy street or an apartment is blown up with missles or bombs, and civilian bystanders are killed along with the target terrorist, it doesn't seem like they are trying very hard to avoid civilian casulties. Are they targeting civilians like a suicide bomber? No. But often they are not very precise either.

The US government is probably even worse with this tactic, using hellfires from remotely piloted drones. It's tempting, when you have a massive technological advantage, to use the shiny toys you have paid billions for. And it keeps your ground troops from risk.

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Paul Goldner
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"Paul, I would restate Pel's point and say that the IDF has been somewhat cavalier in their attitude towards civilian collateral damage"

Except they haven't been. They've been ridiculously careful. Yes, civilians have died... this is largely a function of two facts
1) The terrorist groups use civilians as shields
2) Civilians are harboring the terrorists.

Israel hasn't been perfect, but their military planning when they use military force has been with a focus on preventing as much civilian loss of life as possible.

And yes, this is small comfort to the civilians killed. I agree with you on that. But thats an entirely different question then the motivations of the IDF planners.

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Paul Goldner
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"I think a numerical argument can be made that Israel doesn't try as hard as it could to avoid civilian casulties. Though I am not prepared to make it now."

I would argue the only way israel could reduce the number of palestinian civilians killed in military strikes would be to sacrifice the safety of israeli citizens. And thats simply not a trade off that any government can be realistically expected to make.

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Bean Counter
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The US does not make a policy of attacking from unmanned drones, Yes it has been done, In the Afghanistan Theater, but there are plenty of gunships to mount weapons on.

The standard for War is not the same as the standard for police work, for instance if a truck fires a missile from a schoolyard, that schoolyard is a legitimate military target, if a sniper shoots from a mosque, that mosque is a military target.

It is understood that the manpower does not exist to go in a arrest each enemy soldier with overwhelming force, you have to target locations. Unfortunately the terrorist are not shy about hiding in civilian populations, nor are they willing to attack in force.

There can be little doubt that the ground war will take place, and Israel will sweep the areas for enemy presence. I suspect they will have better results with that then we do in Iraq because they face determined fighters whereas our enemy in Iraq will not fight if pressed making target identification much more difficult.

BC

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Pelegius
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"I think you do have an irrational hatred of israel." No, I have a rational distaste for its national and military leaders based on years of pathetic geopolitical squabbling which has caused needless suffering and a system of "justice" based on collective punishment that makes all observers who value liberal democracy shudder. This is not an anti-Semitic argument, it is a human argument.

I can think of no other gendarmie in the developed world that actually uses cannon, tank and æroplane and them claims to be doing all that it can to prevent civilian casualties. The IDF is not doing all that it can, it is doing patently less than it can, furthermore, it has openly instituted a system of collective punishment based on familial rather than personal guilt.

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Morbo
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Goldner:
Except they haven't been. They've been ridiculously careful. Yes, civilians have died... this is largely a function of two facts
1) The terrorist groups use civilians as shields
2) Civilians are harboring the terrorists.

Israel hasn't been perfect, but their military planning when they use military force has been with a focus on preventing as much civilian loss of life as possible.

And yes, this is small comfort to the civilians killed. I agree with you on that. But thats an entirely different question then the motivations of the IDF planners. [/QB]

You may have a point if an apartment is targeted. But plenty of vehicles have been blown up from the air in recent years. How is a bystander on a street a "shield" or "harboring" terrorist?

If a terrorist drives by you, are you shielding or harboring him?

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TheHumanTarget
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Axis of Evil

Beijing (SatireWire.com) — Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the Union address.

Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best."

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Goldner:
I would argue the only way israel could reduce the number of palestinian civilians killed in military strikes would be to sacrifice the safety of israeli citizens. And thats simply not a trade off that any government can be realistically expected to make.

Yes, yes, yes.
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