quote:Originally posted by katharina: Probably not. This makes me very grateful that I was born where and when I was.
Unfortunately, from a standpoint of someone looking for the one, true faith, I'm sure most religious people feel the same way. Thank God I was born into the TRUE faith, not like all those other poor schmucks who are even now being lead astray.
BlackBlade: How sure am I that I was knocking on the right address? Well, everyone in my various religious communities were all sure that it was the right one. Of course, when I gave up and walked down the street, I saw a bunch of other abandoned houses, all crowded with people listening at the walls.
It would have to be more than a postcard, not because I hold any ill will towards God, but because I simply don't believe that God exists. After all that I went through trying to believe in something with no evidence, I learned my lesson. To believe in God now would take a serious amount of proof, none of the old nonsense will work again.
Fooled me once, shame on you, fooled me twice, shame on me.
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I am honestly not trying to give the impression, "You were not faithful enough." Remember my ex Mormon roommate?
I am merely saying that you lose nothing by leaving the window open and at least being open to the idea that if one day God steps through it he will be able to adequately explain his methods concerning you.
If you have come to the conclusion that God does not exist thats fine, just bear the idea in the previous paragraph in mind.
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Did I say poor schmucks? I really resent words and sentiments being put into my mouth that I have never thought or intended.
My religion makes me very happy. I'm very satisfied with it, and I believe it is true. I'm glad that I was born into a situation where I would listen and give it a chance, because knowing myself and my independence, I doubt I would have ever sought it out on my own.
There is NOTHING in the above sentence that is pejorative towards other people. Have a little charity, MC - I am not the enemy. You don't have to demonize me to justify your own decisions.
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quote:KarlEd, from what you said in your last posts I deduce that: 1) You needed at some point the “support of religion” but have been somehow let down 2) You are now happier without the same need of that specific “support” Is that a correct “summary”?
Not really. The long answer is too long for me right now, and probably would just derail this thread again. (Though I believe there is some relevant stuff in my Landmark).
quote:Do you (really) think that you would have come to the same conclusions about religion as you hold now (i.e. the one in particular that you subscribe to, or atheism/agnosticism or something else) if you had been born in another place on Earth (in a society following another religion as a majority)?
I would not be who I am now had I lived in a different circumstance within the culture I know now, much less so in a completely foreign (to me now) culture. To me the question is the same as asking "would you be the same if you were different?" The only way to answer your question in the affirmative is to believe in a "right path" to "God" and that you are special enough for him to speak to you regardless of circumstance. I'm not now, so I have no illlusions that I would be were I born elsewhere.
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Here's a question that has always bothered me:
If God exists, and you don't believe in God (or the true God) but nonetheless live a good/moral/otherwise-not-evil life, does not believing in God trump that and send you to Hell or otherwise get you punished?
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Katharina: I apologize if you felt demonized in the slightest. I was not attempting to put words into your mouth, and I hope that my post didn't look as though I was claiming that you said that, but that I did. Neither was I trying to justify my decisions. Frankly, I don't feel the need to justify anything I've done.
Correct me if I'm wrong though, that those who believe strongly that their faith is the correct one, almost always necessarily believe that other faiths are incorrect, or less correct. It seems like they would be saddened that others are being needlessly lead astray by being unfortunately born into areas where false beliefs are being spread.
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quote:If you have come to the conclusion that God does not exist thats fine, just bear the idea in the previous paragraph in mind.
I suspect you either missed, or misunderstood, the last part of my post at the end of page 8. As far as I'm concerned, the ball is in God's court, but I'm not holding my breath.
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I just love the "right address" analogy. (Both by MightyCow and BlackBlade) [side joke: Isn't it a wonderful "coincidence" that all those houses are on the same street? ]
The problem wouldn't be compiling the "Yellow Pages", it would be finding THE ONE RIGHT address.
I just think that different people can happily live on different addresses. Having a diversified neighborhood might be the best thing after all.
quote:If you have come to the conclusion that God does not exist thats fine, just bear the idea in the previous paragraph in mind.
I suspect you either missed, or misunderstood, the last part of my post at the end of page 8. As far as I'm concerned, the ball is in God's court, but I'm not holding my breath.
I wouldn't hold your breath, but the occasional glance towards the other side of the court could prove profitable one day Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I think we can all agree that it'd be great for God, when He drops by the court, to hang around for a while so that even those people who've gotten tired of waiting for Him might notice He finally showed up.
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quote:Do you (really) think that you would have come to the same conclusions about religion as you hold now (i.e. the one in particular that you subscribe to, or atheism/agnosticism or something else) if you had been born in another place on Earth (in a society following another religion as a majority)?
I would not be who I am now had I lived in a different circumstance within the culture I know now, much less so in a completely foreign (to me now) culture. To me the question is the same as asking "would you be the same if you were different?" The only way to answer your question in the affirmative is to believe in a "right path" to "God" and that you are special enough for him to speak to you regardless of circumstance. I'm not now, so I have no illlusions that I would be were I born elsewhere. [emphasis added]
About the part in boldface, you are right, it really sounds like an oxymoron. Sorry. My intention was to give the opportunity to the people reading my question to think if they are “truly themselves” or simply the product of their environment. And I’m not trying to imply neither that the former is actually “possible” or that the latter is somewhat “bad”. (Not even that there are only those two “options” ). But if we acknowledge the degree we are influenced by our environment it might help us “place ourselves” in the “great picture”. And I also think that everyone should eventually be allowed to place themselves where they want on the … landscape.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think we can all agree that it'd be great for God, when He drops by the court, to hang around for a while so that even those people who've gotten tired of waiting for Him might notice He finally showed up.
I've always been kind of a fan of the old booming voice from the sky, "This is God. Yes, I'm real. Ignore all that other crap, here's the rules. Be nice to everyone. Stop killing each other, I don't care what reasons you think you have, just stop. Try to eat a little more dessert.
Oh, and I took care of the famine, disease, and poverty stuff. And check your driveway, you all have a new car.
OK, that's it for now. See you next week."
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I think we can all agree that it'd be great for God, when He drops by the court, to hang around for a while so that even those people who've gotten tired of waiting for Him might notice He finally showed up.
I’m sure there are people saying: “No, you see, <insert deity name here> is right there, throwing the ball in your face most of the times, you are just ignoring it …”
If God exists, and you don't believe in God (or the true God) but nonetheless live a good/moral/otherwise-not-evil life, does not believing in God trump that and send you to Hell or otherwise get you punished?
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Javert: I always figured that if God was worth worshiping, if it was a God like the Christians who I admire claimed, then God would understand a person's intentions and would honor their good deeds and positive life.
Of course, I also knew people who said that if you weren't Saved, by whatever particular method they choose to believe in, then you would go to hell, regardless of anything else. That always seemed like a very petty and arbitrary thing for God to do, so I didn't buy into it, even when I was Christian.
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: Just want to repost my question:
Here's a question that has always bothered me:
If God exists, and you don't believe in God (or the true God) but nonetheless live a good/moral/otherwise-not-evil life, does not believing in God trump that and send you to Hell or otherwise get you punished?
Not in Mormon doctrine, generally speaking.
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Javert, what do you think the relation between "God (or the true God)" and religion is? Is one included in the other (which way?), is one the product of other, are they inseparable?
I am curious where you stand when asking that question.
quote:Do you realize that what you said here is equal to saying "It is only true if it is actually true"?
No, what I said is that it is only evidence if it is true - meaning if you believe it is true. You can't just make up a fictional encounter with God that you don't believe and then claim it is evidence for a given religious belief.
If it were true that you had experienced God, then your experience would definitely be evidence of His existence. And if I believed you more than I believed any of the evidence I've seen to the contrary, then I might convert.
quote:It sounds to me that according to your method of reasoning, all religions are equally true. People don't seem to have any ability to determine truth objectively, only blindly follow which faith they were born into.
No. All religions that I know of do have evidence to support them, as does atheism, but that doesn't mean all evidence is equally weighted. That is where human judgement comes into play. People must judge which conclusion all the evidence seems to point to.
Given this, it tends to be a cop out to try and claim that Religion X has no evidence to support it. That would be false for most of the actual religions I know of - they almost all have some sort of evidence backing up what they believe. Instead of attempting to believe such evidence doesn't exist or isn't really evidence, be more accurate and say that you think the evidence against it outweighs the evidence for it. Otherwise you risk confusing yourself into beliefs that may not be the ones you would come up with if you used your good judgement to evaluate ALL the evidence available to you.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: ]I've always been kind of a fan of the old booming voice from the sky, "This is God. Yes, I'm real. Ignore all that other crap, here's the rules. Be nice to everyone. Stop killing each other, I don't care what reasons you think you have, just stop. Try to eat a little more dessert.
Oh, and I took care of the famine, disease, and poverty stuff. And check your driveway, you all have a new car.
OK, that's it for now. See you next week."
Well, God did the first part (in person) and decided that if we were going to be grown up we would fix the rest of it ourselves. And we might have managed it, too, if we paid attention to the first part.
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: Just want to repost my question:
Here's a question that has always bothered me:
If God exists, and you don't believe in God (or the true God) but nonetheless live a good/moral/otherwise-not-evil life, does not believing in God trump that and send you to Hell or otherwise get you punished?
Not in Mormon doctrine, generally speaking.
Nor in Catholic doctrine (contrary to popular belief).
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kmbboots: I suppose I misunderstand the meaning of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"
Could you explain this to me? Or are you merely speaking of purgatory/limbo as opposed to straight up hell?
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quote:Well, God did the first part (in person) and decided that if we were going to be grown up we would fix the rest of it ourselves. And we might have managed it, too, if we paid attention to the first part.
I'm sure you realize why this (the first part) is not what MC is talking about. There's a huge difference between a booming voice from God heard by all contemporary human beings, and highly suspect ancient stories of booming voices.
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Given enough time I am convinced that any booming voice from heaven would eventually become "highly suspect ancient stories of booming voices."
I was amazed when I found out that some people already do not believe we landed on the moon and that it was all done in a hollywood studio we actually WATCHED that with our eyes and we have people bearing witness that they actually did it.
For me it was a very good modern illustration for why merely seeing God or hearing his voice would not be enough for everyone, as much as they think it would.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: kmbboots: I suppose I misunderstand the meaning of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"
Could you explain this to me? Or are you merely speaking of purgatory/limbo as opposed to straight up hell?
You probably understand it correctly - as it was originally intended. Since then, however, we've "loosened it up" rather considerably to mean something like "God has given grace to the church; that same grace makes it possible for all people to be saved as GOd knows what is in their hearts, so, whether formal or not, there is a relationship to the church."
The Catholic Church, for reasons having mostly to do with power (I think), freaks out at the idea that we might have gotten things wrong from time to time, so we often "clarify". If you read the Vatican II documents, it may help to understand where we are now.
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quote:Well, God did the first part (in person) and decided that if we were going to be grown up we would fix the rest of it ourselves. And we might have managed it, too, if we paid attention to the first part.
I'm sure you realize why this (the first part) is not what MC is talking about. There's a huge difference between a booming voice from God heard by all contemporary human beings, and highly suspect ancient stories of booming voices.
Sure. A big, booming voice from God is coersive in a way that stories about God becoming man and saying all those things isn't.
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Indeed; how come your god doesn't object to coerciveness against, say, Sodom and Gomorrah? "Behave or I blow you up" is pretty coercive, in my opinion.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Given enough time I am convinced that any booming voice from heaven would eventually become "highly suspect ancient stories of booming voices."
Which, to me, is another arguement in favor of a less inconspicuous God.
quote:I was amazed when I found out that some people already do not believe we landed on the moon and that it was all done in a hollywood studio we actually WATCHED that with our eyes and we have people bearing witness that they actually did it.
For me it was a very good modern illustration for why merely seeing God or hearing his voice would not be enough for everyone, as much as they think it would.
Therein lies the disconnect in our discussion. You think that is a good illustration because you think that your religious beliefs are as evident as the moon landing and that those of us who don't believe are just refusing to see in the face of such strong evidence. I, for my part, do not believe that there is any evidence for Christianity anywhere near the same vein as the evidence for the moon landing, so I must reject that as an appropriate metaphor.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Indeed; how come your god doesn't object to coerciveness against, say, Sodom and Gomorrah? "Behave or I blow you up" is pretty coercive, in my opinion.
You are (once again - didn't we just do this already?) confusing me with a biblical literalist.
And even in the stories, God usually appeared to one person at a time, yes? He told only Abraham what he was going to do.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Given enough time I am convinced that any booming voice from heaven would eventually become "highly suspect ancient stories of booming voices."
Which, to me, is another arguement in favor of a less inconspicuous God.
quote:I was amazed when I found out that some people already do not believe we landed on the moon and that it was all done in a hollywood studio we actually WATCHED that with our eyes and we have people bearing witness that they actually did it.
For me it was a very good modern illustration for why merely seeing God or hearing his voice would not be enough for everyone, as much as they think it would.
Therein lies the disconnect in our discussion. You think that is a good illustration because you think that your religious beliefs are as evident as the moon landing and that those of us who don't believe are just refusing to see in the face of such strong evidence. I, for my part, do not believe that there is any evidence for Christianity anywhere near the same vein as the evidence for the moon landing, so I must reject that as an appropriate metaphor.
I never said that my religion is as evident RIGHT now as the moon landing, though I would argue that when God communicates to the individual it can be stronger then all 5 senses combined.
I was only arguing that were God to accept your invitation and to simply show up one day leave some instructions, edify everybody, and then leave, even if we had it on video, tape, God left some hair for DNA purposes, given enough time, even that story would become a popular story, then then a legend, then a folk tale, and then a myth.
At least thats how I believe. But then again I believe in a historical record that many do not (Book of Mormon), that states that Jesus actually did show up, glory and all, to a whole civilization of people, left them the gospel, performed all sorts of miracles, established a church, and there was complete peace and harmony for 100 years. Then it documents a very step by step process by which the people decended once again into wickedness, explained it all away, and almost destroyed each other with wars.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: [qb] Indeed; how come your god doesn't object to coerciveness against, say, Sodom and Gomorrah? "Behave or I blow you up" is pretty coercive, in my opinion.
You are (once again - didn't we just do this already?) confusing me with a biblical literalist.
Well, if you aren't going to accept the Bible as proof of X, then why the devil is it proof of Y? You can't have it both ways; either the old stories are a reliable guide to what really happened, or they ain't. Can you please say which it is, one way or the other?
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: And even in the stories, God usually appeared to one person at a time, yes? He told only Abraham what he was going to do.
In some cases, yes. In others, he damn well blows up cities.
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quote: I was only arguing that were God to accept your invitation and to simply show up one day leave some instructions, edify everybody, and then leave, even if we had it on video, tape, God left some hair for DNA purposes, given enough time, even that story would become a popular story, then then a legend, then a folk tale, and then a myth.
Which is an excellent reason for God to drop by more often.
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I guess my ideal system would be one in which God would do whatever is necessary for each person to convince them that he exists, and that they should do what is necessary to gain salvation, of their own free will, because it makes the most sense.
It is obvious that having some religious books and various different faiths out there isn't enough for a great deal of the population, as we're not all the One True Faith.
Due diligence, that's all I ask.
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Tom: Humor me and TRY to come up with at least one honest draw back for a God that actively makes his presence known on a regular basis to people he is trying to make better.
MightyCow: Do you think its a neccesity that God makes sure everyone belongs to his religion within each individuals life time?
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: [qb] Indeed; how come your god doesn't object to coerciveness against, say, Sodom and Gomorrah? "Behave or I blow you up" is pretty coercive, in my opinion.
You are (once again - didn't we just do this already?) confusing me with a biblical literalist.
Well, if you aren't going to accept the Bible as proof of X, then why the devil is it proof of Y? You can't have it both ways; either the old stories are a reliable guide to what really happened, or they ain't. Can you please say which it is, one way or the other?
of course not. As I have told you (really - don't you read my posts?) The Bible is not one entity. It is a group of writings. Written over a long period of time. By a bunch of different peopel. History, fable, letters, poetry. All gathered together. Some of it should be taken literally; some of it shouldn't.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: And even in the stories, God usually appeared to one person at a time, yes? He told only Abraham what he was going to do.
In some cases, yes. In others, he damn well blows up cities.
If you are refering to S&G. According to the story, God told Abraham what he was going to do. There was no booming voice that everyone could hear. I imagine the folks getting blown up could only speculate on the reason. Maybe the resident loony preacher blamed it on the gays. Perhaps they attributed it to natural causes? (Perhaps they were right!)
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: MightyCow: Do you think its a neccesity that God makes sure everyone belongs to his religion within each individuals life time?
If there is one True God with a True Faith, particularly if there are benefits to belonging to the faith, and if a person's salvation depends on being a member, I think it only makes sense for God to make an effort to make it clear to everyone.
As I see it, fast food chains put more time and effort into convincing me that their food will make me happy, popular, and sexy, than God does in trying to convince me that I'm missing out on the most valuable and worthwhile knowledge around.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: MightyCow: Do you think its a neccesity that God makes sure everyone belongs to his religion within each individuals life time?
If there is one True God with a True Faith, particularly if there are benefits to belonging to the faith, and if a person's salvation depends on being a member, I think it only makes sense for God to make an effort to make it clear to everyone.
As I see it, fast food chains put more time and effort into convincing me that their food will make me happy, popular, and sexy, than God does in trying to convince me that I'm missing out on the most valuable and worthwhile knowledge around.
Ok that being said, what makes you think that if there was a God that it is neccesary that we all join his club in this life? When it comes to eternal beings and their creations isnt it entirely possible he has a plan that involves more than the mere lifetime we have?
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Given enough time I am convinced that any booming voice from heaven would eventually become "highly suspect ancient stories of booming voices."
I was amazed when I found out that some people already do not believe we landed on the moon and that it was all done in a hollywood studio we actually WATCHED that with our eyes and we have people bearing witness that they actually did it.
For me it was a very good modern illustration for why merely seeing God or hearing his voice would not be enough for everyone, as much as they think it would.
This is off topic, but if you watch the tape of the landing, enough evidence points to a forgery. I'll post a link here .
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quote: I was only arguing that were God to accept your invitation and to simply show up one day leave some instructions, edify everybody, and then leave, even if we had it on video, tape, God left some hair for DNA purposes, given enough time, even that story would become a popular story, then then a legend, then a folk tale, and then a myth.Which is an excellent reason for God to drop by more often.
The fact is that if God is God, he could simply make us believe in him by flipping a switch in our minds. No proof needed, just change the logical bit to "true."
And for that matter, that's my answer to anyone who claims that I'm not viewing the evidence with an open mind. I have offered God (if it exists) the opportunity to set my "God Bit" to true, and God has apparently declined the opportunity. I can't think of a more honest and open state of mind than to offer to allow your mind to be changed for you.
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quote:Ok that being said, what makes you think that if there was a God that it is neccesary that we all join his club in this life? When it comes to eternal beings and their creations isnt it entirely possible he has a plan that involves more than the mere lifetime we have?
Or in life at all? Who says that we have to make that choice before we die?
quote: The fact is that if God is God, he could simply make us believe in him by flipping a switch in our minds. No proof needed, just change the logical bit to "true."
And that isn't coersive!? How horrid!
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quote:of course not. As I have told you (really - don't you read my posts?) The Bible is not one entity. It is a group of writings. Written over a long period of time. By a bunch of different peopel. History, fable, letters, poetry. All gathered together. Some of it should be taken literally; some of it shouldn't.
Ok, but in that case, how can any of it count as evidence for anything? Let me remind you of the context : We were discussing what the evidence for the existence of gods is. The Bible is basically it. So, if you're going to say that parts of that aren't evidence on the grounds that they don't feel right, then we're back to having no evidence at all! Because what we've got then is your internal feeling of which parts of it 'count' and which do not; and that just takes us back to the original 'personal belief'. That ain't evidence of nuffink.
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And threats of eternal hellfire are quite OK? (Not necessarily in your watered-down version, I know, but plenty of people believe it.)
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quote:Humor me and TRY to come up with at least one honest draw back for a God that actively makes his presence known on a regular basis to people he is trying to make better.
There isn't one. Not a single drawback. Period. Any claims of potential drawbacks are sour grapes from people who are struggling to reconcile the invisibility and inaccessibility of a fictional God with their own belief in His omnipresent benevolence.
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BlackBlade: I don't know that if there is a God, we do or don't need to join his club. But, considering that many faiths DO believe that if you don't join the right God club and follow the right rules, you suffer eternally after death, it would make sense that God should try pretty hard to prevent that, if he is a Just and Loving God.
Similarly, if there is any benefit to joining God's club, and God is Good, then he ought to put a lot of effort into getting us to join.
Here's my conundrum: I've never been convinced in the correctness or benefit of any particular God club, yet many people who belong to a club feel that theirs is the Right One, and that their God is both All Powerful and All Loving. I can't rationalize that.
If God is all powerful and always good, then it makes sense for him to insure the best possible life for everyone. This opens a huge can of worms as to whether or not we can know what is the best life for us and so forth, so I will distill it into the absolute basic premise I can.
If there is an all powerful and supremely good God, then it makes sense that life knowing this God, and basking in his glory, both in this temporal world and in any possible future existence, would be infinitely better than life without the complete goodness and love of such a being. If that is the case, I would think that this God would want everyone to experience that.
Because everyone does not experience this supreme love and union with God, something is obviously wrong with the picture. Either God is not all powerful, or is not all loving, or does not want what is best for all people, or does not exist as described.
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Not at all. If you read my post I said that I offered my mind to be changed. If there is a God, I'd be happy to believe in it. If I make an offer to God (call it a form of prayer) to allow him to change my state of belief as a form of proof, that's not God coercing me, it's him providing the proof that I've asked for.
Unfortunately, he has not provided said proof.
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Not at all. If you read my post I said that I offered my mind to be changed. If there is a God, I'd be happy to believe in it. If I make an offer to God (call it a form of prayer) to allow him to change my state of belief as a form of proof, that's not God coercing me, it's him providing the proof that I've asked for.
Unfortunately, he has not provided said proof.
This makes me think of an interesting scenario:
Say that someone you know makes the same "offer" to <insert deity name here> and that the answer/proof comes for that someone. Now, would you believe that the deity exists?
Note: if you say: "Why didn't the deity answer me dirrectly too?" then the answer might be (from the other person) : "Well, the deity didn't answer you but it told me why it chose to do so, here's the reason: [...]"
So, would you believe?
Same question if you don’t personally know that other person.
quote:We were discussing what the evidence for the existence of gods is. The Bible is basically it.
That isn't true. As I mentioned earlier, there are many sorts of evidence for God. One of the most important is experiences of God, by you or by other people. If someone tells me they have seen, heard, or experienced something then that is definitely evidence that that thing happened - although not absolute proof. There is also the nature of the world, itself, which lacks explaining. While science has offered feasible explanations for the evolution of the physical organisms within the universe, it has largely failed to offer complete explanations for its nonphysical components, such as human experience and meaning in general. Once again, not absolute proof of anything, and certainly not proof of Christianity above other religions, but a piece of the puzzle nonetheless. Thirdly, there is the spread of Christian, Islamic, and Jewish belief systems. The western world been largely united under belief in essentially the same God for hundreds of years. Pretty much only Buddhism is comparable. And fourthly, and most importantly for many people, there is the effectiveness of Christianity as a way of living. Christian values are shared even by atheists in our society, and they are in a significant part responsible for our being a much more ethical culture than those in the past.
quote:
quote:Humor me and TRY to come up with at least one honest draw back for a God that actively makes his presence known on a regular basis to people he is trying to make better.
There isn't one. Not a single drawback. Period. Any claims of potential drawbacks are sour grapes from people who are struggling to reconcile the invisibility and inaccessibility of a fictional God with their own belief in His omnipresent benevolence.
There would be no freedom of religion, for one thing - there are mroe than enough fanatics even with the little proof we have. In fact, I suspect there would be virtually no freedom in general.
How would you act if you were certain that God existed, that he was watching over you at all times, and could control your life and your fate in the afterlife? Do you think you would be a better person because of that knowledge? I'm not sure that is the case...
I've known people who were certain that God exists - not certain in the average "I have faith" way, but certain in the sense that they could not even imagine being wrong. And in many cases, I think that certainty did not help them. It seems to make people obsessed with religion, to the point where elements of their life in this world are compromised. I'm not sure the world would be better if everyone was like that.
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